2.Jay — Direct (Part 2)
1,220 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUING BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Good morning.
MR. LESKO: You can pull your microphone close, if you like.
So, Jay, did you have a -- form an impression of how other women in the community perceived the defendant?
MR. LESKO: What was that impression?
JAY: The impression was that their way -- they had a lot of adoration, almost a little bit of an obsession, and -- but they, you know, revered Keith.
MR. LESKO: Were you sexually attracted to the defendant?
MR. LESKO: So let's go back to the conversation with India, just before you joined The Vow. Okay?
MR. LESKO: During that conversation, did she tell you that after joining The Vow you would have to provide additional collateral?
MR. LESKO: You provided the four pieces of collateral to join The Vow, right?
MR. LESKO: Did India tell you that you would, after joining The Vow, have to provide more collateral or additional collateral?
JAY: She didn't tell me that I would need to when I joined, but afterwards that was now a thing that I had to start doing.
MR. LESKO: And how often did you have to provide additional collateral?
MR. LESKO: And had you known this requirement, this monthly collateral requirement, would it have changed your mind about joining The Vow?
MR. LESKO: Why so?
JAY: Because I understood that, okay, fine, you need to protect the secrecy. So the first collateral seemed, like, sensible to a certain degree.
But afterwards, that just -- it was scary. It's like, why would I have to keep submitting collateral, and keep telling them more things about me. It was -- it was -- it was really scary.
MR. LESKO: Did you provide monthly collateral?
MR. LESKO: And what types of collateral did you provide?
MR. LESKO: Secrets about yourself?
MR. LESKO: And who did you provide this monthly collateral to?
JAY: At first, it was to India. But then I was invited to collaborate in a Dropbox, so I directly submitted to there.
MR. LESKO: And what is Dropbox?
MR. LESKO: And who invited you to join the Dropbox, was it a group?
MR. LESKO: Okay. And could you just explain how the collateral to the Dropbox process worked?
JAY: Yes. So you were asked to -- or not asked, you were told to put in your collateral there on the 1st. And then shortly after they said it would be deleted, within 24 hours.
MR. LESKO: I am going to show you what I believe is admitted as Government's Exhibit 446-R.
MR. LESKO: Just checking with Ms. Carby.
Yes, okay, this has been admitted.
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: And you can look on your screen.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: I am showing you the -- I'll zoom out.
Can you see that?
MR. LESKO: Okay. What is the first page of Government's 446-R?
MR. LESKO: Is this -- is this a screenshot of the Dropbox folder?
MR. LESKO: And do you know who took that screenshot?
MR. LESKO: Show you the second page of Government's 446-R.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that page?
MR. LESKO: Is that also a screenshot you took?
MR. LESKO: And so is that the group that you mentioned earlier?
MR. LESKO: And could you name the group, please?
JAY: Allison Mack, Danielle Roberts. It says "Danielle exo-eso," which is Danielle Roberts' other e-mail, India Oxenberg, myself, and Michele.
MR. LESKO: And did you later learn who all these people were?
MR. LESKO: Okay. Who were they?
JAY: They were people in Allison's little sort of circle, as well as -- and as well as, technically, my housemate.
MR. LESKO: Okay. And I am going to show you this -- I think this second page cuts off at the bottom, so I am going to show you the bottom of the second page of Government's 446-R.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that page?
MR. LESKO: And I think we left off with Michele.
Are there any other names mentioned on that -- on that page?
MR. LESKO: And was Nicole also a member of Allison's circle?
MR. LESKO: And is this a screenshot that you took?
MR. LESKO: And just very quickly, the last page.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize the last page of Government's 446-R?
MR. LESKO: And what is that?
JAY: It's an invitation to join Dropbox.
It says: Hi, Jay, India Oxenberg invited you to edit the folder Collateral iTribe on Dropbox. And it says: India said, here is your file to upload collateral. Once it is uploaded, it will be taken off line.
MR. LESKO: Okay. And was that the invitation to join the Dropbox group?
MR. LESKO: And was -- again, that was your screenshot?
MR. LESKO: Did all of the monthly collateral -- did you upload collateral to the Dropbox?
MR. LESKO: Did it always remain there or did it get deleted eventually?
MR. LESKO: And did you have an understanding regarding what India did with your collateral?
JAY: It was a vague understanding, but she said that the collateral would go into a safe, and that it would be protected.
MR. LESKO: A physical safe?
MR. LESKO: Do you know where the safe was located?
MR. LESKO: Do you remember a time when collateral was on a zip drive?
MR. LESKO: And a zip drive, describe what a zip drive is.
MR. LESKO: So could you explain the time when collateral was on a zip drive?
JAY: Yes. There was a zip drive that was located in Allison's apartment, not the house that I lived in. And Allison wasn't there, and India asked me if I could grab it for her. And she said: Be careful, it has the collateral, just be safe with it.
So I went to Allison's house, got it from the table, and brought it to her.
MR. LESKO: Did that concern you?
MR. LESKO: Why?
JAY: Because it just showed how careless they were being. Obviously, having my own collateral, it made me scared that anyone could see it, anything could have happened to it, and that it wasn't secure and protected.
MR. LESKO: So at this point, when you first start providing the monthly collateral, what was your understanding of the purpose of the monthly collateral?
MR. LESKO: Did that understanding change later?
MR. LESKO: What was your later understanding?
MR. LESKO: So you mentioned that India discussed the master/slave relationship with you, is that right?
MR. LESKO: So what was your reaction when she -- when she explained that she was your master and you were her slave?
JAY: Well, she prefaced me and she said that the name dynamic was very controversial, and that it's meant to raise feelings for you to go through. And then she explained that it's kind of like in karate, master/sensei, yoga, guru, master.
So because she expressed it in that way, because India to me was just very disarming, I didn't really think much of it. I was just like, oh, okay, it's just a word, it's not gonna mean anything.
MR. LESKO: Are you familiar with the term -- well, you mentioned the term "circle."
What was a circle?
MR. LESKO: And whose circle -- were you part of a circle?
MR. LESKO: And whose circle were you part of?
MR. LESKO: Okay. And was India part of a circle?
MR. LESKO: And whose circle was India a part of?
MR. LESKO: Were you aware of other circles in The Vow?
MR. LESKO: So let's talk about assignments that you received during your time in The Vow. Okay?
MR. LESKO: Did you receive assignments -- you received assignments from India, right?
MR. LESKO: And I think you mentioned at least one assignment from Allison?
MR. LESKO: Did you receive additional assignments from Allison?
MR. LESKO: Are you familiar with the term "acts of care"?
MR. LESKO: What is an act of care?
JAY: It was labeled "acts of care for your M," which stood for master. And it was, basically, things that you were supposed to do for your master to help make their life easier, make them feel good. Things of that nature.
MR. LESKO: And did you perform acts of care?
MR. LESKO: Did you perform acts of care for India?
MR. LESKO: What did you do?
JAY: I would do things like buy her a mani/pedi or, like, pay for her massage. Also, I knew that she liked poems and memes, so I would send her different memes and poems.
MR. LESKO: What's a meme?
JAY: It's something online, where it's like a picture and like a quote or something, and something kind of usually funny.
MR. LESKO: Did you give her gifts?
MR. LESKO: What did you give her?
MR. LESKO: Did you give anyone else jewelry?
MR. LESKO: Who?
MR. LESKO: Who paid for the jewelry?
MR. LESKO: And were you -- were you compensated or paid for any of these acts of care?
MR. LESKO: In fact, were you ever paid for any of the assignments that you completed when you were part of The Vow?
MR. LESKO: Are you familiar with the term "acts of self-denial"?
MR. LESKO: What are they?
JAY: So it was one of the assignments, where you -- there was three different acts of self-denial. One was for one week, one month, and one year. And, basically, you just had to give something up for that time duration.
MR. LESKO: And what was the purpose of an act of denial?
JAY: I was told that it helped build your discipline. And also, like, build comfortability with discomfort.
MR. LESKO: Did you perform acts of denial?
MR. LESKO: Could you -- what kind of things did you give up?
JAY: So I really love cookies, and I mean -- so that was one of the things that I gave up for a month. As well as the year one I decided that I wanted to be celibate, so I put that on there as well.
MR. LESKO: So you remained celibate for a period of time?
MR. LESKO: As part of The Vow, did you participate in something called "readiness"?
MR. LESKO: And what was readiness?
JAY: Readiness was a drill where either India or a random number would message me with a question mark. And so at any time of the day, whether it's 3:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m., you had to answer to the question mark with RM within one minute or someone would be punished.
MR. LESKO: And what did "RM" stand for?
MR. LESKO: And how did you communicate to respond to readiness?
MR. LESKO: And what is Telegram?
JAY: Telegram is an encrypted app, where you can self-destruct messages. And it's supposed to be, like, private.
MR. LESKO: And did anyone tell you to use Telegram to respond to readiness?
MR. LESKO: Who?
MR. LESKO: Now, these punishments that people received, were you ever told the types of punishments that people received for your failures?
JAY: India said that sometimes it would be, like, taking a longer cold shower. Being woken up in the middle of the night, like 3:00 a.m., and then have to stand for 30 minutes and things like that.
MR. LESKO: Were you ever punished?
MR. LESKO: How were you punished?
JAY: Thankfully, India was nice. So I only had to do -- I mean, I mainly only did journalling on my failures.
MR. LESKO: As part of The Vow, were you sometimes assigned to do errands or chores?
MR. LESKO: Could you describe them, please?
JAY: I had to perform services for Allison, as far as cleaning her house, doing her laundry and things like that.
MR. LESKO: How about groceries, did you help with groceries?
MR. LESKO: Were you paid for that work?
MR. LESKO: When you decided to join The Vow, were you told that you would have to complete these types of assignments?
MR. LESKO: Now, we've discussed Allison frequently.
Who is Allison Mack?
JAY: Allison Mack is an actress from the television show Smallville. She was also the head of The Source, and she was my grand master.
MR. LESKO: And you lived with Allison when you were in Albany?
JAY: I lived in the house that she owned, and I would frequent -- would frequently visit her apartment.
MR. LESKO: So she had two residences?
MR. LESKO: And she stayed in the apartment?
MR. LESKO: And you and others stayed in a house?
MR. LESKO: Okay. And where was the house again?
MR. LESKO: And who -- you've mentioned this, but who lived in the house with you?
MR. LESKO: Showing you what's in evidence as Government's 47.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that photograph?
MR. LESKO: Who is that?
MR. LESKO: And she stayed in the house with you?
MR. LESKO: Showing you Government's 28 in evidence.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that photograph?
MR. LESKO: Who is that?
MR. LESKO: And she stayed in the house as well?
MR. LESKO: When you first joined The Vow, were you aware of -- that anyone else was a member of The Vow, other than India?
MR. LESKO: Did you later learn that Allison was part of The Vow?
MR. LESKO: How did that happen?
JAY: Well, I wanted to join The Source, and so it was very expensive and I couldn't afford it. So India suggested that I talk to Allison, since it was her company, to see if I could work something out.
So when I went to ask Allison about it, she later revealed to me that she was my grand master.
MR. LESKO: And what was your reaction?
MR. LESKO: Why were you excited?
JAY: Because the way that I perceived her at that time, she seemed very caring. As well as she was an actress, and I'm an actress, so I thought that she would be someone that I could learn things about the industry from.
MR. LESKO: Did your perception of Allison change over time?
MR. LESKO: How so?
JAY: I would say that it changed from thinking that she was a good person to then a very emotionally abusive, vindictive, manipulative, hurtful person.
MR. LESKO: Did you and Allison figure out a way for you to pay for The Source?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that?
JAY: So I put either 2 or $3,000 for the deposit. And we worked out an agreement, where I would have to enroll three people and then it would be paid off. And if not, I would be able to make payment plans to -- in lieu of the money.
MR. LESKO: And you may have discussed this earlier, but did you have a payment plan in place for one of the earlier classes?
MR. LESKO: The ESP class?
JAY: With the ESP, I paid for all the intensives, those were paid up. But I did end up doing Ethos, I believe is what it was called, and it was like an ongoing ESP class. And those were payments.
MR. LESKO: So when you learned that Allison was your grand master, was it your understanding that you owed her obedience?
MR. LESKO: And did you owe anyone else obedience?
MR. LESKO: So you've talked about personal information about your childhood and your history.
Did you reveal that information about yourself to Allison?
MR. LESKO: Did you reveal it to India?
MR. LESKO: And did you explain to them that -- well, do you know the -- what is the -- you're familiar with the term "vulnerabilities"?
MR. LESKO: What are vulnerabilities?
JAY: Vulnerabilities were things that -- I guess, that make you feel vulnerable. But it's kind of more like you would list it, like what are the different -- what are your vulnerabilities, like --
MR. LESKO: Was that a NXIVM term?
MR. LESKO: And did you, in the course of discussions with India and Allison, indicate that your vulnerabilities were in part because of the sexual abuse that you experienced?
MR. LESKO: So let's talk about Delegates for a moment. Okay?
You explained what Delegates was. Did you perform services in connection with Delegates?
MR. LESKO: So briefly, what were they?
JAY: So when I worked for Delegates, I would do the errands, the tasks, the assistant work, like, the assistant type work, as well as massages and the Reiki.
And then outside of that, my unpaid work from Delegates would be I helped India format policies, do some administrative stuff for her.
MR. LESKO: So that was -- that part of it was unpaid, the administrative work?
MR. LESKO: And the service work was paid?
MR. LESKO: Do you recall how much you were paid an hour?
MR. LESKO: Did you make a lot of money when you were working at Delegates?
MR. LESKO: When you were in The Vow, were you instructed to recruit other slaves?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that?
JAY: Originally, India just said to make a list in my head of other women that I thought would benefit from the program, that would like it, and that would be good.
And then shortly after, the mental list turned into it needed to be a written list, which escalated into it needed to be a list that was categorized and so forth.
MR. LESKO: And did you compile information about potential recruits?
MR. LESKO: Could you tell us what that information was?
JAY: It was photos, like from Instagram, just information about them. And it was usually verbal, where I'd tell India and Allison, oh, this girl, she does this, she models, she wants to do this and that. And, like, I think she would be great. So just like mini profiles on them.
MR. LESKO: Did you show Instagram photographs of potential recruits to Allison and India?
MR. LESKO: And did they ever comment or react to the photographs?
MR. LESKO: Did being cute or being attractive, did that seem to be one of the criteria used to select recruits?
MR. LESKO: How about for Allison and India?
MR. LESKO: Did you ever recruit anyone as your slave?
MR. LESKO: Who?
MR. LESKO: Who was Val?
MR. LESKO: And what did Val do for a living?
MR. LESKO: Would you characterize Val as being attractive?
MR. LESKO: And could you please describe how you recruited Val into The Vow?
JAY: Yes. Me and Val went to Vancouver together to do The Source program, where she met Allison. And I thought she would be good for it.
I did mention it, but I personally didn't want to have a slave then because everything was just -- it was just like a lot to grasp in my own mind of being a part of The Vow. But Allison, after meeting her said, I love Val, I want her to be in it. I think she'd be great for you.
So then I talked to Val and asked different questions that would, like, prompt her to see if she'd want to do it; which eventually led to a conversation being had at a party after the intensive with me, Allison, and Val.
I proceeded to attempt to enroll her and recruit her, but I failed. So Allison just jumped in and just pretty much recruited her right then and there.
MR. LESKO: And was this an instantaneous recruitment?
MR. LESKO: Did anyone reach out to India?
MR. LESKO: How did that happen?
JAY: So we -- after -- Val pretty much wanted to join right then and there. And this was a very unorthodox way of being recruited, which Allison explained, like, listen, you -- no one ever really knows who their master or grand master is right away like this.
But because she was so excited to join, we then phoned in India with a video call. And she introduced her as, like, this is your grand master. Because I was her master. So Allison was her great grand master.
MR. LESKO: And did you have an impression as to how Val viewed Allison?
JAY: Yes. Val had a lot of adoration and admiration for Allison, you know, because she's an actress and all these things. So Val was really excited to be in a more personal relationship with Allison.
MR. LESKO: So this all happened at the same moment?
MR. LESKO: So Allison basically accepted Val into The Vow at that moment, is that right?
MR. LESKO: And was this normal, was this a normal procedure?
MR. LESKO: How so?
JAY: Well, for my personal experience, I only knew that it was India for a while. All the information was given to me periodically over time. I, basically, felt like I was on an island by myself and couldn't talk to anyone, except for India.
Whereas, with Val, she got a lot of information up front. And it just happened a lot quickly for her.
MR. LESKO: Did Allison tell Val about the brand or tattoo?
MR. LESKO: What did she say?
JAY: She said that part of it is that you'd get a brand, but it's like -- she's, like, but really, it's like a tiny tattoo. She said, it's a sisterhood thing, and that it represents the symbols of the elements.
MR. LESKO: Did she in that conversation mention that the brand was, in fact, someone's initials?
MR. LESKO: Did Allison tell Val about the life commitment?
MR. LESKO: So lots of information about The Vow was shared with Val?
MR. LESKO: Was Val told that any men were involved with The Vow?
MR. LESKO: So did Val ultimately provide collateral?
MR. LESKO: And to who?
MR. LESKO: And what was that collateral?
JAY: One of them was a video that we staged. So since she was a model and actress, reputation, we made it look like she did cocaine. It was just sugar or, like, flour. So we staged that video. That was one of them.
MR. LESKO: Was there any other collateral?
JAY: Yes. Allison expressed that it needed to be something that was heavily weighted, and Val -- Val's sister was applying for this government official office position. And so she wrote a letter and had it notarized, saying that her sister was a terrorist, along with an envelope to the address of that office.
MR. LESKO: And did you receive this collateral from Val?
MR. LESKO: How did you receive it?
MR. LESKO: To your computer?
MR. LESKO: To your phone.
And what did you do with it?
MR. LESKO: Both the video and the letter?
MR. LESKO: Do you recall a time when Val was going to cancel a trip to Albany?
MR. LESKO: What happened?
JAY: Allison had requested for Val to come to Albany to spend time with us. But Val booked a dance gig, and so she said that she couldn't come.
So I let Allison know that, oh, Val booked a job, so she's not gonna be able to come. And Allison looked at me and said, well, maybe you need to remind her that she doesn't have a choice.
MR. LESKO: And so what did you do?
JAY: So I relayed the message to Val and said, hey, Allison said to, like, remind you that you don't have a choice.
MR. LESKO: And did she not have a choice?
MR. LESKO: Did she travel to Albany, Val?
MR. LESKO: Did you try to recruit other women into The Vow?
MR. LESKO: Were you successful?
MR. LESKO: Other than Val, when recruits were first pitched on The Vow, was the master/slave relationship discussed?
MR. LESKO: Other than the recruitment of Val, in your experience, when other slaves were recruited, were they told about the master/slave relationship initially?
MR. LESKO: No. For you?
MR. LESKO: Was there a time when you worked on an app, like an app for a phone, in connection with The Vow?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that?
JAY: It was the very early stages, and Allison asked me to start thinking about different ideas because they wanted to create an app. Basically, an app to do mass recruitment.
So she said to think of, like, a game or a way that we could get women into The Vow, but with different levels of commitment. Like, she said there would be lifers, like us, or there would be people that were just, like, in the group.
MR. LESKO: Did you have an understanding regarding the long-term plan for The Vow?
MR. LESKO: What was it?
JAY: She explained that the more people that were in The Vow, meant the more people that they had voting power, buying power. So, basically, if we wanted to say, hey, like, buy this, or don't vote for this or vote for this, with the click of a button everyone would be, like, on board.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MR. LESKO: (Continuing.)
MR. LESKO: Now, I think you mentioned that before you joined The Vow you weren't told about the brand or tattoo; right?
MR. LESKO: Were you eventually told about a brand or tattoo?
MR. LESKO: What were you told?
JAY: I was told that as part of the group you would get a brand, but it was expressed to me as it's like -- it's like a tiny tattoo.
MR. LESKO: Who told you that?
MR. LESKO: And did she tell you what the tattoo, what it depicted?
MR. LESKO: Did Allison ever explain what the tattoo depicted?
JAY: There was a time when I asked Allison if I could see her brand, Oh, can I see your brand. She said, No, like I didn't deserve the right to see it but she said, Oh, it's a beautiful symbol.
MR. LESKO: Did you think that you were going to get this tattoo?
MR. LESKO: What did you think you were getting?
MR. LESKO: Did you think that you were actually going to be branded?
MR. LESKO: Did you think that you were going to be burned?
MR. LESKO: Did you ever end up receiving a brand?
MR. LESKO: Do you know whether other women in The Vow received a brand?
MR. LESKO: What did they receive?
JAY: It -- from what I've seen, it's a very disgusting, disturbing mark which eventually scarred where it had, like, puffed-up skin and something that looks really painful.
MR. LESKO: And was the -- were the brands that you've seen, were they actually symbols?
MR. LESKO: What were they?
MR. LESKO: Of who?
MR. LESKO: And who was KR?
MR. LESKO: And who was AM?
MR. LESKO: Did you actually ever see, physically see, a brand?
MR. LESKO: Whose brand did you see?
MR. LESKO: Did you later see photographs of brands?
MR. LESKO: When was that?
MR. LESKO: Did you learn that you had to wear something as part of The Vow?
MR. LESKO: What?
JAY: It was called a collar, but how Allison described it was, like, Oh, you know, it can just be a piece of jewelry that you don't take off. I wear a belly chain. I think it's sexy. It's just something like that.
MR. LESKO: Were you told what the collar symbolized?
JAY: The collar was supposed to symbolize that you belonged -- that you were forever attached to your master.
MR. LESKO: Were you required to consult with your master regarding life decisions?
MR. LESKO: Would you explain that?
JAY: Basically before making any major decisions, like, career or just life things, you were asked to consult -- not asked but you were supposed to consult your master and sometimes journal about it.
MR. LESKO: Showing you what I believe is in evidence --
MR. LESKO: I will ask Mrs. Carby, Government 30? Yes?
MR. LESKO: Okay. Showing you what's in evidence as Government's 30.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that exhibit?
MR. LESKO: Who is that?
MR. LESKO: And who is Nicole?
JAY: Nicole is a friend and someone who was in The Vow and she was also my Source ongoing class coach.
MR. LESKO: Was she an actress?
MR. LESKO: And did Nicole spend time in Allison's house, the house that you were residing in?
MR. LESKO: At some point were you asked to do something with Nicole?
MR. LESKO: What was that?
JAY: I was with Nicole and we were ask to take a survey that was created by Allison and it was a survey that had to do with sexuality.
MR. LESKO: And specifically how did it have to do with sexuality?
JAY: There were questions like what were you into sexually, what turned you on, what are your different preferences, have you ever been with women. It was like a questionnaire.
MR. LESKO: And did you complete this questionnaire?
MR. LESKO: With Nicole?
MR. LESKO: Where were you when you did this?
MR. LESKO: What did you do with the questionnaire after you finished it?
MR. LESKO: Did you ever learn what happened to your questionnaire?
MR. LESKO: Do you have an understanding now as to why you were asked to complete this questionnaire?
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Was it ever explained to you why you were asked to complete this questionnaire?
JAY: When Allison said that, when she gave it to us, she said that it was to it was something that she was developing so she just wanted to find out.
MR. LESKO: Do you think Allison was being truthful then?
MR. LESKO: What did you think the questionnaire was for?
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Did you later reach an understanding as to the purpose of the questionnaire?
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection, Judge.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MR. LESKO: Did you later reach an understanding as to the purpose of the questionnaire?
MR. LESKO: What was your understanding?
MR. LESKO: So you mentioned volleyball and I think you explained a little bit about how volleyball worked but could you explain in detail how volleyball worked in NXIVM?
JAY: Yes. Pardon me. So volleyball was held at the sports barn. There was two volleyball courts. There was the A team and the B team. The A team was were Keith and people that were strong volleyball players where you had to be invited and the B team was for fun and anyone could play there. So, many people would come to Albany for intensives and there were chairs around the volleyball courts so people would attend, mostly women, and sit there and watch the volleyball game.
MR. LESKO: And would anything happen during the breaks in the games?
MR. LESKO: What?
JAY: So, during the breaks, Keith would, like, step out and there would basically be, like a line of people waiting to talk to him. So he would have little one-on-one times and go on mini-walks and hold their hands and have a mini-walking meeting.
MR. LESKO: Did you notice a particular way people greeted the defendant?
MR. LESKO: How?
MR. LESKO: What was your reaction to people kissing him on the lips?
JAY: At first it was kind of strange, but then I also saw the males do it, too. I still thought it was a little strange, but I just thought maybe this is just like a different way of, you know, expressing, like a hello, like in France people kiss people.
MR. LESKO: Did people bring gifts for the defendant?
MR. LESKO: What sort of gifts?
JAY: He had a sweet tooth, so people would bring chocolates and candies and treats and they would leave it on his chair.
MR. LESKO: When you were part of The Vow were you required to attend volleyball?
MR. LESKO: How did you know that?
JAY: Because there was a time when I wasn't feeling well and I did not attend volleyball and Keith noticed and told Allison and so Allison reprimanded me and said that it's mandatory that we go to volleyball, that it's rude and disrespectful if we don't and we need to show our support.
MR. LESKO: And after that did you attend volleyball regularly?
MR. LESKO: Was there a time during volleyball when the defendant touched you?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that, please?
JAY: Yes. It was after volleyball and a group of us were in conversation and it was really strange. We were talking about something and out of nowhere he used his finger and draws a circle around my belly button on my stomach.
MR. LESKO: And what was your reaction?
JAY: My reaction was I was in shock. Being someone who's been sexually abused before, I have a high sense of awareness to my body and it was just really weird. I felt uncomfortable. I felt like my space was being invaded.
MR. LESKO: Did you say anything?
MR. LESKO: Why not?
JAY: I think because I was in shock. You know, there was other people there, but the fact that it happened, I mean, it's almost kind of, like, it was a bit traumatizing where I didn't know how to react.
MR. LESKO: So, let's go back a bit to the 11-day intensive. That was, I think, in November of 2016 and you mentioned that you took a walk with the defendant?
MR. LESKO: And that was in Albany?
MR. LESKO: Actually in the NXIVM community; is that fair to say?
MR. LESKO: Was this considered a big deal?
MR. LESKO: Would you explain that, please?
JAY: So, Keith wasn't really accessible to anyone who just took the courses. He never even attended them. So it was, like, a big deal. It was known that if you go on a walk with Keith, your whole life will change. It's like a dream come true. So when I took a walk with him, other people noticed that had been in the program for a long time, oh, wow why are you going on a walk with Keith? I'm like, I'm supposed to talk about a T-shirt company. And people would make remarks like, Did you invent something to save the environment? It was strange.
MR. LESKO: And I think you discussed that you got the defendant's information. Did you -- and you ended up setting up a walk?
MR. LESKO: What time of day was the walk?
MR. LESKO: Could you just describe this walk with the defendant, this first walk?
JAY: Yes. So, he messaged me and asked if I was up. I said yes. And he said to walk out of the house to meet him, like, on the street essentially in Clifton Park, and it was like -- awkward is not the word for it but it was kind of like -- I didn't really know how to be comfortable and react because this is like a big deal and I didn't know what to talk about. So at first it was a little awkward so it was like a getting-to-know-you kind of walk.
We chatted for a bit. He would ask some questions about me or he asked if I had any questions for him. So it was, you know, very -- not shallow, but like a soft kind of conversation. I don't know. But later we did end up talking about the T-shirt company and he said that -- I told him my ideas and he said that he already had a company. He was waiting for someone to give it over to because it wasn't working out with whoever it was before. He said he had screen print machines, connections with Diesel in Mexico and he was just waiting for the right person.
MR. LESKO: And what was Diesel?
MR. LESKO: And, so, did he offer to help you with the T-shirt company during this walk?
MR. LESKO: Was it your intent to make money, make a profit off of this company idea?
MR. LESKO: Did you understand that the defendant had built businesses with other people?
MR. LESKO: How did you understand that?
JAY: There was different companies in NXIVM that other people were the head of and also it was known that he has thousands of patents and starts all of these businesses. Like, if you're special, he will start a business with you.
MR. LESKO: So after this first walk did you go on additional walks with the defendant?
MR. LESKO: And what time -- what times did those walks happen?
MR. LESKO: And did the defendant ever say anything flattering to you on those walks?
MR. LESKO: What did he say?
JAY: He basically asked or he would say that I was special like, Do you know that you're special? And I said, Yeah, I feel like I'm special. And he would say, But did you know that you're special? And, like -- I don't know. Do you feel like this special connection with us, in between us? And I said, Yes, because I felt like there was. I felt like who I thought he was this person that wanted to change the world, that was doing these things, these remarkable things, and that's really internally who I am. And so, yeah, great; we're on the same team. And so these were, like, the kinds of things that he said.
MR. LESKO: So let's talk about after you moved to Albany. Did you continue to speak to the defendant about the T-shirt company idea?
MR. LESKO: And could you explain how that happened?
JAY: Yes. He said to write, like, a business plan. So me and my friend Jacob who I was doing the T-shirt company with as well, we came up with different ideas. We wrote like a whole e-mail of the plan, how it had to do with charity and the artist and sustainability and I sent that to Keith.
MR. LESKO: And what was his reaction?
JAY: His reaction -- his feedback that he gave was that there was a lot of great ideas there, but he said that the charity aspect wouldn't really work because it's hard to have charities that have integrity; like, you don't really know where the money is going and that that wouldn't be a good aspect.
MR. LESKO: Was the defendant particularly responsive to you regarding the T-shirt company idea?
MR. LESKO: Did that change?
MR. LESKO: Explain, please.
JAY: So, when he messaged me when I was on my way back to L.A. and said, well, if you're serious about starting the T-shirt company, the sooner you come back the better. I did eventually move to Albany per that -- per that message with that intention and when I got there, you know, I would see him. But whenever I would get to talking about the T-shirt company, okay, when are we going to go on a walk and talk about this, he would make plans to go on a walk and cancel and then became more distant in regards to the T-shirt company.
MR. LESKO: Did that frustrate you?
MR. LESKO: Did you ever express your frustration to the defendant?
MR. LESKO: What was his reaction?
JAY: I messaged him after and he said, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so busy. Maybe we'll get another walk in, like, soon about it. And I said that, you know, this is, like, a little irritated. I don't remember exactly what I said, but along the lines that I came there to do that and he messaged me back saying, You seem cranky.
MR. LESKO: Did you and the defendant discuss becoming partners in this business at some point?
MR. LESKO: Did the defendant ever help you start this T-shirt business?
MR. LESKO: Did you ever start the business?
MR. LESKO: Now, we've discussed what a circle was. Was there -- you were in India's circle; is that right?
MR. LESKO: Was there anyone else in India's circle?
MR. LESKO: And who was Rachel?
MR. LESKO: And Valerie was your slave?
MR. LESKO: And she was under you?
MR. LESKO: You became aware of who was in Allison's circle?
MR. LESKO: And when did that happen?
JAY: It happened because there would be moments where we were, like, gathered together, with Allison, spending time with her and she would talk about things about The Vow with everyone present, so at that point because it's secret obviously we wouldn't be having this conversation unless everyone was in it.
MR. LESKO: Did Allison ever tell you that someone specific was in her circle?
MR. LESKO: Who did she say was her slave in her circle?
MR. LESKO: Did Allison ever let you talk to another slave about The Circle?
MR. LESKO: Who was that?
MR. LESKO: And was Nicole Allison's slave?
MR. LESKO: Danielle Roberts?
MR. LESKO: Michele?
MR. LESKO: Souki?
MR. LESKO: Did Michele have any other slaves?
MR. LESKO: Who?
MR. LESKO: The names that you saw on the Dropbox folder, did that -- did that help you determine who were Allison's slaves?
MR. LESKO: And when you saw those names, what was your reaction?
JAY: My reaction was that I wasn't surprised, but also it made me feel a little bit better. It made me feel like I wasn't in this by myself and that all of those people are also going through what I'm going through essentially.
MR. LESKO: Now you talked about The Source. Did you do any work for The Source?
MR. LESKO: What did you do?
JAY: I did things like help with the social media. I sent out the weekly assignments and things like that.
MR. LESKO: Were you ever paid for that work?
MR. LESKO: Did you have an understanding as to what that work was going towards?
MR. LESKO: What was it going towards?
JAY: Since I didn't recruit anyone for The Source, Allison said, well, some of the ways that you can work it off would be to do those tasks.
MR. LESKO: Did you ever set an hourly rate or an amount related to the amount of work you did for the Source?
MR. LESKO: As part of The Vow were you required to take walks?
MR. LESKO: Could you describe those walks, please?
JAY: Yes. We were required to go on 20-minute walks of contemplation where you just walk silently and think about your life.
MR. LESKO: How many of those walks did you take, approximately?
MR. LESKO: Were you ever required to write transcripts?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that, please?
JAY: Yes. There was a member in the community who passed away, I believe her name was Pamela Cafritz and when she passed away, we were required to make transcripts from these interviews.
MR. LESKO: And what were the transcripts for?
MR. LESKO: And did that process take -- take time?
MR. LESKO: How much time?
MR. LESKO: Were you paid for writing those transcripts?
MR. LESKO: As part of The Vow, did you receive instructions regarding your diet?
MR. LESKO: What were they?
JAY: Initially, I had to start off with 1,000 calories and all of this is calculated on an app. It was 1,000 and then it went down to 800 and then the last it ended going to 600 or 500 calories per day.
MR. LESKO: So at some point you were eating only 500 calories per day?
MR. LESKO: How did it make you feel?
JAY: I was very hungry. It was very frustrating and also one of the aspects of it -- it evolved into having to do, like, math equations with each item; where we had to measure it and weigh it on a scale and then eventually also take pictures of it and that also led to eventually having to ask permission to eat.
MR. LESKO: And this weighing and math equations and pictures, that all related to the food you were allowed to eat?
MR. LESKO: Did you lose weight during this time period?
MR. LESKO: Were you required to record your weight?
MR. LESKO: Did you do that?
MR. LESKO: How often?
JAY: We had to do it every morning before we take -- before we eat, I would have to send it to India.
MR. LESKO: And how did you send it to India?
MR. LESKO: And before you ate were you required to do anything else?
MR. LESKO: Other than weighing in?
MR. LESKO: In the morning before you ate, I think you indicated that you were required to weigh yourself. Were you required to do anything else?
MR. LESKO: What were you required to do?
JAY: So, every morning right when we wake up I would have to say, Good morning, M, for master, to India; as well as take three-minute cold sure -- or two or three minutes.
MR. LESKO: And were you told why you had to take a cold shower?
JAY: I was told that the cold showers would help with your comfortability (sic) or discomfort to push on that.
MR. LESKO: And when you asked permission to eat, who did you ask permission from?
MR. LESKO: Did you notice whether anyone else in the community was dieting?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that, please?
JAY: Everyone in the house was dieting and I noticed that because everyone was doing the measuring, the picture-taking, and we were all eating the same foods pretty much.
MR. LESKO: Did anyone seem particularly unhealthy to you?
MR. LESKO: Who?
JAY: Definitely Allison. India got very, very thin. Souki as well. Everyone just honestly looked very -- like, their skin wasn't looking lively and they were looking tired as well as I know that several people weren't getting their menstrua cycle and I overheard someone that their hair was starting to fall out.
MR. LESKO: Did you ever receive any direction regarding your pubic hair?
MR. LESKO: What was the direction?
JAY: The direction was from India saying that I couldn't get Brazilian waxes anymore and that I needed to grow my pubic hair region.
MR. LESKO: What was your reaction?
MR. LESKO: Did you express that to India?
MR. LESKO: How did you do that?
JAY: I just told her I don't understand why do I have to do this and she explained that getting waxes in that style of grooming was propaganda from the porn industry. Doing that was violence against women.
MR. LESKO: So did you ever fail any of these instructions?
MR. LESKO: And did you receive punishments?
MR. LESKO: And was it journaling, is that the type of punishment?
MR. LESKO: Any other punishments?
JAY: Well, when I would fail with the food, that's when I had to start doing -- asking for permission.
MR. LESKO: Okay. Was there a time when you were reprimanded for the way you dressed?
MR. LESKO: Explain that, please.
JAY: Because I was in Albany and I wasn't trying to impress anyone, my attire was a lot of hoodies and sweatpants and I didn't put makeup on. And, so, I was given an assignment from India to do acts of self care, which basically was to put makeup on, be put together, dress more nice.
MR. LESKO: Was there a time when you did not wear a bra?
JAY: Yes, I wore a leotard and I didn't wear a bra with that and Allison said that -- she said that it was fine but that some other people, like older women in the community, felt uncomfortable and, so, that I needed to wear a bra.
MR. LESKO: Did this instruction that you make yourself up, did that relate at all to volleyball?
MR. LESKO: How so?
JAY: So, first it was just general, like, okay, take care of your -- get ready, but India specifically said that especially when you go to volleyball it's very important that you look your best.
MR. LESKO: Did you have an understanding as to why India said that?
MR. LESKO: What's your understanding?
JAY: My understanding is that I was basically being put on display for Keith and it was an opportunity for him to see how I'm looking.
MR. LESKO: Shortly after this self-care assignment that you received to make yourself up, did Allison contact you and tell you that she had to discuss something important with you?
MR. LESKO: What did she say?
JAY: She basically called me and said, hey, I want to talk to you about something. It's really important. I'm going to call you, like, later this week.
MR. LESKO: And did she call you?
MR. LESKO: And what did she say?
JAY: First she prefaced it with, You've been doing so great. Everyone in the community loves you. You've been so amazing. She asked me about the self-respect, self care-assignments and she's, like, Yes, you know just with the bra thing you need to be more discrete and we need to -- we're special so how we dress is really important. And then she prefaced that and segued into -- she said, well, me and India have been talking and we wanted to give you this special assignment. It's an honor and a privilege. It's something that you need to be very discrete with and me and India have both done this assignment -- and at this point my Spidey senses are going off, and she said that the assignment is for me to seduce Keith and have him take a naked picture of me and send it to India to prove that I did it.
MR. LESKO: And what was your reaction?
JAY: I basically -- like, my mind was just blown. It was like my whole world was crumbling. It was basically my worst nightmare come to life because, like, what would be the worst thing? Like, I joined this thing. I think it's so great and people would warn me, Oh, you've got to be careful and the worst thing would be that it was a cult and I would -- and of course wanted to sleep with me and that's what that was.
MR. LESKO: Were you told that other women had done this?
MR. LESKO: Were you supposed to keep the assignment a secret?
MR. LESKO: Who told you that?
MR. LESKO: This is during a phone call; is that right?
MR. LESKO: Where was Allison?
MR. LESKO: So did you -- what was your response to Allison when she gave you this assignment?
JAY: Well, I was in shock. And I was really uncomfortable so I was trying to find the words and I was like, I -- I don't understand. Like, what is this for? And she said, well, you -- this is going to help you get rid of all of your sexual abuse trauma and I was like, I don't understand. Like, I'm still in love with my ex-boyfriend. This makes me really uncomfortable and I said, Does Keith know about The Vow? And she said no.
And at this point I am still feeling that's super weird, like, why would I use Keith to do this thing, you know, isn't he going to think this is weird? And she said, Just say it's the most vulnerable thing you could do.
MR. LESKO: Did you discuss with Allison the issue of celibacy?
MR. LESKO: What did she say?
JAY: Well, when I was pushing back and seeing my confusion and uncomfortability (sic) with it, she said, well, you're celibate anyway and what's one person? After I said I was still in love with my ex-boyfriend and I -- I was pushing back and then she said, well, don't you still feel like you have disintegrations around your sexual abuse and around men? And so for me I just said -- I said, yeah, I guess. She said, well, this is how you're going to get rid of all of those.
So in that moment, I realized that I didn't have an option. I realized this is something that she expects me to do. So, I internally basically I feel like I went kind of like a double agent; that I needed to get -- pardon my French, that I needed to get the fuck out of there. So I just kind of softly pretended to go along with it so I could plan my escape.
MR. LESKO: How did the call end?
JAY: The call ended with Allison -- first she said, You can talk to India about her experience. You know, you can call me and ask me any questions and before she ended the call she said, And I give you permission to enjoy it.
MR. LESKO: During this conversation were you thinking about your collateral?
MR. LESKO: How?
JAY: I was just thinking about all the collateral that they had on me and, like, well, what was I going to do. I needed to get out of this situation and what are they going to do with my collateral.
MR. LESKO: When Allison gave you permission to enjoy it, what was your reaction?
JAY: Again, sorry pardon if I curse, but internally I was just like, you fucking bitch. I was horrified and enraged with the fact that she would try to re-traumatize me and say that doing something sexual with someone that I obviously didn't want to do that with would heal my sexual trauma. I was disgusted.
MR. LESKO: So, what was -- just to be precise, what was your understanding of the assignment that Allison gave you?
JAY: My understanding of the assignment was to seduce Keith which she mentioned in the conversation, that since it has to be discrete I needed to send him notes and send him pictures. No one finds out, but that the seduction process ending up with me doing sexual things and having sex with him and having him take a photo of me obviously to blackmail me to then send it to India.
MR. LESKO: Why did you think you were supposed to have sex with the defendant?
JAY: There was a number of reasons why I felt that way. One of them, she stated the thing about celibacy. Obviously, I give you permission to enjoy it, which wouldn't make sense. Okay, to seduce someone. That's just a word. That's a seduction, an action; to seduce someone with the intention to, like, do sexual things with them.
So, that is one of the actions, but with the intention to complete that assignment. So, yeah, it just -- all of it felt like that's what it was. Have me have sex with him. Seduce him, have sex with him and then also, enjoy the seduction process. She knew about my prior sexual history, that I was trying to deal with certain areas and I felt she was using that against me and thinking that I would go along that route.
MR. LESKO: What happened after you got off the phone with Allison?
JAY: Well, I was in my room in the basement and I just felt like the walls were spinning. I just felt like the whole room was spinning. I, like, was dizzy. I, like, almost blacked out and, shortly after, I get on my laptop and I just start Googling everything. Mind you, I had done all of this Googling stuff before, but there was always an answer or a reason to, like, the bad things online. But I went deeper in the Google search and then I saw this thing where it mentioned something about him having a harem and I was just like, oh my God, this is true. Like, this is all true. And I just basically started planning my escape.
MR. LESKO: So, you had done some internet research previously?
MR. LESKO: And who did you discuss that research with?
MR. LESKO: And what did India say?
JAY: It was before I even took the five-day and there was a lot of, like, bad press on the internet. So I asked India, I was like, hey, there's all of this weird stuff on the internet, what's up with that? And basically her main story was that there was someone who, like, a son of a very prominent media family who took the intensive and then realized that his family business was unethical. So then the parents were angry and did a smear campaign. India also said, it's so funny because all of these people that were saying these bad things, it was reported that they had child pornography.
MR. LESKO: So after receiving the special assignment, this assignment to have sex with the defendant, did you talk with India about it?
MR. LESKO: What did the two of you discuss?
JAY: Well, I saw her the following day and I was just, like, hey, I got that special assignment. Oh, okay, how do you feel and I was like, you know, it's kind of -- like, I don't really know. Like, I wanted to ask is you, like, what was your experience like. What did you do and what was it. And she said that she didn't really want to tell me about her experience. She wanted me to have my own experience, but she just said that it was amazing. And that Keith's body was -- he's like surprisingly more fit as well as the fact that he liked to be pursued. He kind of likes to play hard to get. So you'll figure it out.
MR. LESKO: What was your reaction to India's comments?
JAY: I kind of just looked at her, like, not like she was crazy but, like, you know, like -- you know, I found it very strange and I felt bad for her.
MR. LESKO: Did you have suspicions that other women in the NXIVM community were having sexual relationships with the defendant?
MR. LESKO: Did you have suspicions that other women in the NXIVM community were having sexual relationships with the defendant?
MR. LESKO: Who?
MR. LESKO: So after receiving the assignment, doing the internet research, talking to India, did you make any decisions as to what were you going to do regarding The Vow?
MR. LESKO: What did you decide?
JAY: Well, I decided first and foremost I needed to get out of Albany and also that I needed to protect myself along with certain people that were in there that I cared about.
MR. LESKO: And so what did you do?
JAY: So, I knew I had to play along. Thankfully I had a family trip to Mexico planned that they were already aware of that was going to be coming up shortly so I just knew that I had to play along for a little bit. Also, because I had access to the Dropbox and other peoples' collateral, I decided to take screenshots of the other peoples' collateral.
MR. LESKO: And, so, the screenshots of the Dropbox folder itself that we previously discussed, was that part of the screenshots that you took?
MR. LESKO: What was your time frame? How long did you have before your trip to Mexico?
MR. LESKO: And during that time period did you have contact with the defendant?
MR. LESKO: Could you describe that, please?
JAY: Yes. Mostly it was just messaging. So I would -- in the conversation I would send, like, a heart or, like, a heart face and things like that.
MR. LESKO: How did you think you could go a few weeks without completing the assignment?
JAY: Because I had the original pushback, I already knew -- I felt like, okay, they're not going to push on me to, like, complete this right now because I'm in a fragile state along with the lines that he likes to be pursued which would obviously take a little bit more time.
MR. LESKO: So, you mentioned you took out of the Dropbox other collateral?
MR. LESKO: So why did you do that?
JAY: I did that to protect myself and to, as insurance that if they tried to blackmail me, that I would have some leverage to get them to not.
MR. LESKO: And you mentioned you were concerned about other people that you cared about in The Vow?
MR. LESKO: Who were they?
MR. LESKO: And so the way -- describe -- you took screenshots of the collateral; is that right?
JAY: Yes. So basically I knew I had to play along for X amount of time because the new collateral came in the first of every month. I needed to lay low to have the collateral come up so I could have copies of those collaterals.
MR. LESKO: Describe the collateral that you saw in the Dropbox folder?
JAY: There were naked photos of women, particularly focused in the groin area with the heavy pubic hair region making these kind of interesting faces. There were photos of women looking, like, unattractive; video secrets, as well as there was a letter from India. It was like a statement letter saying that Nicki and Allison Mack that she believes that they were such an amazing couple and in love and that the wedding ceremony was very beautiful.
MR. LESKO: Were Allison and Nicki married?
MR. LESKO: So the pubic hair depicted in some of the photos did you become aware that the defendant had a preference for a lot of pubic hair?
MR. LESKO: Did you become aware that the defendant had a preference for a lot of pubic hair?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that?
JAY: I think that was part of -- in his generation that was probably the theme, as well as I just noticed a lot of the women had very overgrown hair areas, as well as with my assignment.
MR. LESKO: So, Your Honor I'm going to publish Exhibit 448-R that is in evidence. If we could have this published just for the jury. And I'm turning off my monitor and if we could turn off the monitors to the gallery. I think the jury's monitors are all positioned appropriately.
May I proceed?
THE COURT: Let me just check. Are the monitors to the public off?
MR. LESKO: They're both off.
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
THE COURT: Yes, of course. Why don't we just have the -- let's just have the witness use the lavatory and come back.
THE COURT: You may step down and we'll wait.
(Witness steps down.)
(Pause in proceedings.)
(Continued on the following page.)
(Continuing)
(Witness resumes stand.)
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Lesko, you may continue.
MR. LESKO: Thank you, Your Honor.
I'm going to show you briefly some photographs that are included and admitted as Government's Exhibit 448-R. I can't see them, so if you could tell me if you -- actually, I can see them.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that photograph?
MR. LESKO: What is that photograph?
MR. LESKO: Is that region blurred out?
MR. LESKO: Was that how it was when you -- is that one of the pieces of collateral that you took a screen shot of?
MR. LESKO: Was her private parts pixillated in the actual photograph that you took?
MR. LESKO: Okay. Is Danielle smiling in that photograph?
MR. LESKO: Showing you the second page of Government's Exhibit 448-R.
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that photograph?
MR. LESKO: What's that a photograph of?
MR. LESKO: Okay. Is that another photograph of collateral that you took a screen shot of?
MR. LESKO: Is Michelle smiling in that photograph?
MR. LESKO: Okay.
MR. LESKO: Third page of Government's Exhibit 448-R.
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that photograph?
MR. LESKO: What is that?
MR. LESKO: Were her private parts pixillated in the exhibit in the photograph, are they blurred out?
MR. LESKO: They weren't blurred out when you took the photograph --
MR. LESKO: -- of this picture?
Is Michelle smiling in that photograph?
MS. PENZA: Last page of Government's Exhibit 448-R.
MR. LESKO: Again, are these photographs of Michelle?
MR. LESKO: Are these screen shots that you took of this collateral?
MR. LESKO: Okay.
MS. PENZA: Okay. Your Honor, I think we can probably turn the screens on, if that makes sense.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. LESKO: So have you met Nicki?
MR. LESKO: And have you seen her interact with Allison Mack?
MR. LESKO: Do you believe them to be in a -- did you believe them to be in a romantic relationship?
MR. LESKO: Why not?
JAY: Well, one, when they interacted, it was just friendly. It wasn't anything out of the ordinary. Also she didn't come around a lot. She didn't live with Allison in the apartment. India actually lived and slept in the same bed as Allison.
MR. LESKO: Did you know whether or not Nicki was a U.S. citizen?
MR. LESKO: Do you know where she was from?
MR. LESKO: Have you yourself been married?
MR. LESKO: Were you married to a friend?
MR. LESKO: Was he gay?
MR. LESKO: And was he older than you?
MR. LESKO: Was that a fraudulent marriage?
MR. LESKO: How old were you at the time?
MR. LESKO: And was your husband a United States citizen?
MR. LESKO: And did you make misrepresentations to officials about that marriage?
MR. LESKO: Did you get paid for that marriage?
MR. LESKO: Did you get divorced?
MR. LESKO: How long after you got married did you get divorced?
MR. LESKO: So when you first arrived, say, January of 2017 in Albany, did you communicate with Allison Mack about the defendant?
MR. LESKO: Did you communicate with Allison Mack, either in person or by e-mail, about the defendant?
MR. LESKO: January, February time period. Early on after you arrived in Albany.
MR. LESKO: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And did you, on occasion, admit that you wanted to have a closer relationship with the defendant?
MR. LESKO: And the assignment that you received to seduce or have sex with the defendant, do you recall approximately when that happened?
MR. LESKO: So after you had been in Albany for several months?
MR. LESKO: So during your time in The Vow, if you failed your assignments, did you believe there was a risk that your collateral would be released?
JAY: I'm sorry. Can you repeat that, please?
It's -- the mic, it feels like a little bit hard to hear you.
MR. LESKO: Okay. Sorry.
MR. LESKO: During your time when you were in The Vow, did you believe that if you failed your assignments, there was a risk that your collateral would be released?
MR. LESKO: How about if you told anyone about The Vow? Would that jeopardize your collateral?
MR. LESKO: What about the assignment to seduce and have sex with the defendant? If you did not complete that, would that jeopardize your collateral?
MR. LESKO: What if you left The Vow? Do you think that would jeopardize your collateral?
MR. LESKO: How did that make you feel?
JAY: It made me feel trapped. I was terrified. It made me really scared for my safety, for the well-being of my friends and family.
MR. LESKO: And how did you think the collateral would be used against you?
JAY: I felt like they would publish it somewhere and have, you know, just have it out in the world.
MR. LESKO: So did you ultimately leave The Vow?
MR. LESKO: And could you describe how that happened?
JAY: Well, it was a bit of a process. So when I left, I went to Mexico, to the family vacation. Thankfully I could take my cat with me. And I was there and I just knew once I was in California, which is where I'm from, I would be okay, because they weren't there.
So I just basically said that my grandma, which one of them was ill, but I just -- I played it up that she was really ill and that I needed to be there. And then that's how I slowly started to get away from them. But I needed to get my car back from Allison. My friends were in it, so it was a very drawn-out kind of process. And I wouldn't say that I officially left until May 30th, when everything kind of blew up.
MR. LESKO: And had you lent your car to Allison?
MR. LESKO: And where was your car?
MR. LESKO: And so during this time period -- and you said that there was some sort of incident on May 30th; is that right?
MR. LESKO: And so from the time that you arrived on the West Coast to the May 30th time frame, were you communicating with India and Allison?
MR. LESKO: And were you doing all of the required assignments and so forth related to The Vow?
MR. LESKO: Did there come a time when you had a conversation with India about your collateral?
MR. LESKO: Could you describe that conversation.
JAY: Yes.
I went to San Diego to see Allison's play and to retrieve my car. So after the play, Allison instructed for me and India to walk back to her San Diego apartment. So during this walk, I was talking to India and I said, hey, so if I wanted to -- if I decided I wanted to leave, as long as I don't say anything about the group, nothing will happen to my collateral; right?
And she says, well, you're already in the group.
And I go, I know, but when I gave you the collateral at the beginning, you said that it was only to protect the secrecy of the group. So if I wanted to leave, nothing will happen to my collateral; right?
And then she like, pushed back a little bit and she said, this is a lifetime commitment. You're already in.
And at that point I felt threatened, so I said, are you threatening me? Because I feel like I'm being threatened right now.
And then at this point we already arrived to the front of Allison's apartment. So she came down and broke up the conversation.
MR. LESKO: And at this point, had you already collected the other collateral that we just viewed?
MR. LESKO: And did that -- how did that make you feel, that you had that other collateral?
JAY: It made me feel better. It didn't make me feel like completely safe, because they still had my collateral, but it did help me feel a little bit more empowered in the situation.
MR. LESKO: So after this discussion with India, did you end up getting your car back from Allison?
MR. LESKO: Explain how that happened, please.
JAY: So I Ubered to the play to get my car, and Allison gave me my keys, but she misled me as to where the car actually was. So I had to come back the following day, and I was in a car with Michelle and Danielle, Allison and India, and they were going to drop me off where my car was. Prior to that, we dropped off India at the train station.
MR. LESKO: And what happened next?
JAY: So we're dropping India off. I was sitting in the car and I didn't help her take out her luggage from the trunk. So then Allison reprimanded me in front of everyone and said, you're so lazy. You're so ungrateful. You're so rude. You don't appreciate anything that she's done for you. And she just basically berated me.
MR. LESKO: How did that make you feel?
MR. LESKO: What happened next?
JAY: So after we dropped off India, we go to where my car was located, which was in a parking garage. And India -- I'm sorry. Allison, she just basically says, I don't understand, like, you were so about the program. Like, you've been so distant.
And I don't want to just like run away from the situation. I'm like a person, I like to talk about things and like, just move through it. And I said, honestly, that special assignment really freaked me out, and it really scared me, and I started Googling everything and -- and it really freaked me out.
MR. LESKO: What did she say in response?
JAY: She said -- she just became very dramatic and said, are you saying you -- you thought that I was an accomplice to a child molester?
And I looked at her and I said, yes, that's what I thought.
MR. LESKO: What was Allison's reaction?
JAY: She just said, I just feel like I failed you. I can't believe that's what you think.
And then we got to my car and it was just, like, fairly silent and then her attitude went from, like, feeling that she feels bad to being, like, mean to me.
MR. LESKO: Did you eventually get your car?
MR. LESKO: Okay. And did Allison leave?
MR. LESKO: Afterwards, did you have contact with Allison?
MR. LESKO: Could you describe that please.
JAY: Yes.
She sent me like a YouTube video, or something like an inspiring quote or something like that, and this time her tone is very nice. And she's like, I know I'm only here for a short period. I would love to spend some quality time with you. Souki's coming down and she knows how much I care about Souki. I know she would love to see you.
And so I agreed to meet with them.
MR. LESKO: And did you meet with them?
MR. LESKO: So during this time period, were you confused about The Vow?
MR. LESKO: Would you explain that.
JAY: It was really confusing. Obviously, I had my intuition, like, what I felt was right and wrong, but then, like, I formed relationships with these people. I trusted them. You know, I also had people that I cared about in -- in The Vow. So it was really confusing. Especially after that conversation where I, you know, told Allison, hey, like, I think this is -- I don't know what's going on, but this is not right.
I feel like she tried to get in my head a little bit and then seeing Souki, who I love and like, so happy, it was really emotionally and internally, like, really messing me up. On top of the fact that I couldn't talk to anyone about this stuff. It was really challenging.
MR. LESKO: Did there come a time when you had dinner in Los Angeles with Allison?
MR. LESKO: So what happened? Explain the dinner.
JAY: Well, Allison said that I needed to go to the dinner to meet with her and Val and Rachel. I actually didn't go to the dinner aspect, I just came towards the end. In my mind, you know, I'm already like irritated that I had to keep showing up. I had to keep showing face a little bit. So they eventually leave.
And I am with Allison by myself and we go to another, different parking garage, and as we're walking in, she says, you know, you can do this any way that you want to. You could do this as hard or as easy and slow and fast as you'd like. We just want to help you.
And I told her, listen, like, I just want to live my life as an artist. I'm going to Maui, like, this program isn't working for me.
And she goes, well, like, how can we help you? We just want to help you.
And I said, listen, just back off. Like, just back off.
And that was the last time I saw Allison.
MR. LESKO: Okay. Did she react to you when you said back off?
JAY: Yes. Again, the fake waterworks and saying, I just -- I feel like I failed you. And in her own little bubble of emotion.
And I said to her -- I said, it's nothing personal but if you want to feel that way, you're entitled to feel that way.
MR. LESKO: And why did you say that?
JAY: It was like a NXIVM term, where it's, like, you have to take ownership of your feelings. So it was kind of my little way to, like, jab at her with her own phrasings.
MR. LESKO: After that conversation, did you ever talk with Allison Mack again?
MR. LESKO: So just so the timeline's clear. You entered The Vow in November of 2016; is that right?
MR. LESKO: Okay. And did you leave it on May 30th? Is at that the date or is there another date?
MR. LESKO: So what happened on May 30th? Before that. Was there a party planned just before May 30th? May of 2017?
MR. LESKO: Did you go?
MR. LESKO: Okay. During that time period, did you and India discuss Vow?
MR. LESKO: What did you discuss?
JAY: We both agreed that it made more sense for her to take on Vow as I've now become unavailable.
MR. LESKO: And to the best of your knowledge, had India discussed that with Val?
MR. LESKO: And did you want to discuss that with Val?
MR. LESKO: So did you make a plan to do that?
MR. LESKO: And at that time, was there supposed to be some sort of ceremony in June?
MR. LESKO: What was your understanding of the ceremony?
JAY: How India described it, she said that there was a special ceremony, and I needed to go to Albany on June 1st and, it was also during coach summit, so I said, I don't understand why I need to go. I'm not a coach.
And she said, it's just a special ceremony and your sisters are going to be there, and it's important that you're present. I later learned from Zoraida that it was actually going to be a branding ceremony.
MR. LESKO: And did you go to Albany in June for that ceremony?
MR. LESKO: Did you make it appear as if you were planning on going?
MR. LESKO: So did you ultimately meet with Val?
MR. LESKO: And when did you meet?
JAY: We met on May 30th. For me, it was -- she was my friend, so I wanted to say something in person. But I couldn't tell her everything, because I just didn't want to ring any alarms.
So we went on this hike, and at the beginning of the hike she gets a phone call, and then she's, like, really stressed out and freaking out.
And I, like, hey, like, what's going on? And she said, India's mom keeps calling me, and she's freaking me out. She just texted me.
I said, what did the text say?
And the text said, please do not go on that plane to Albany. You are involved in illegal activities you may not be aware of. Please call me.
MR. LESKO: So what happened next?
JAY: So I took that as a sign from God and go, well, I'm just going to tell her everything. Like, I'm -- so then we go on this hike. I tell her about the special assignment. I tell her, like, that's why I'm leaving. I don't know what's really going on, but, like, this is not good.
MR. LESKO: What happened next?
JAY: Next, during the middle of the hike, Bonnie, who was a high-up in ESP, calls her and says, like, hey, can I trust you? Like, you're involved with really dangerous women. You're going to a branding ceremony. Like, you know, she's just, like telling her, like, this is really unsafe.
MR. LESKO: So did you and Val meet with anyone later that day?
JAY: Yes. So she told Bonnie that I was with her, but Bonnie was really paranoid that, like, I might be, like, a bad person in it. And she assures her, like, no. She actually is getting out herself. So then there's kind of like this secret meeting that happens with Catherine's mom, Bonnie, and a few other women that I knew and didn't know that were involved with NXIVM.
MR. LESKO: Was Val concerned about her collateral?
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. LESKO: Did Val ever express to you that she was concerned about her collateral?
JAY: She was concerned before giving the collateral. And then while on the hike, she was in hysterics. She was balling. She was freaked out. Like, she loves her family.
So especially with that letter for the terrorism, she was just completely petrified.
MR. LESKO: Did Val end up going to Albany?
MR. LESKO: Did she end up getting branded?
MR. LESKO: Did you have a discussion with Zoraida?
MR. LESKO: And what did the two of you discuss?
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. LESKO: I will rephrase it.
THE COURT: Please.
MR. LESKO: Did you have a discussion about the collateral that you had photographed with Zoraida?
MR. LESKO: And what did you say to Zoraida?
JAY: Well, Zoraida was under Michelle, and I already knew that. So she came to me as a friend, not knowing that I was in it. But just said, I'm in this thing, like, I'm really worried. I can't talk about it, and as soon as she said that, I said, listen, I know what you're talking about it. Don't worry. Like, I'm doing things to help take care of it, and just let her know that not to be afraid and to stop talking to Michelle.
MR. LESKO: Had she given collateral to Michelle?
MR. LESKO: Did Zoraida ultimately get branded?
MR. LESKO: So at some point in this process, did you -- did you reach a point where you came to accept or make peace with the fact that your collateral would be released?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that.
JAY: So during this time, you know, I felt very bounded by the fact that I had the collateral and all of that fear. I would consider myself a spiritual person, and I just approached it in the way that, like, okay. What am I going to do? What is the worst thing that could happen? You know, other than if they tried to physically attack me; would be that my collateral would be released.
And I just had a moment with myself and just liberated myself emotionally, mentally, and was, like, you know what? If the worse thing that happens to me is they show the collateral. Fine. But, like, no one was going to be able to trap me like that.
So I accepted the fact that that could happen and that's what led me to be able to do what I needed to do.
MR. LESKO: How did that make you feel?
JAY: Liberated. Scared at first, but then at the end of day, it was -- it is what it is, you know. It was going to be what it was going to be and I was ready to -- to live with that.
MR. LESKO: At some point, did you eventually give the collateral that you took along with Danielle and Michelle, did you give that to anyone else?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that.
JAY: I sent it to my ex-boyfriend, and also to -- I didn't send it, but I later on, after all this happened, met with Mark Vicente and Catherine, as they were trying to get things together to get the FBI to investigate. And Mark and Bonnie said that they're known to sue people a lot and blackmail and frame people. So they thought it would be more safe for me to give the collateral to Mark, just in case they tried to frame me, and say that I was, like, the mastermind.
MR. LESKO: To your knowledge, did NXIVM go after people?
MR. LESKO: Could you explain that.
JAY: It's known in the lawsuits, like, the people who were against NXIVM, that they would be sued. Like Clare Bronfman.
MR. AGNIFILO: I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. LESKO: Without getting into specifics, was it your understanding that NXIVM would go after people?
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, may I show an exhibit just to the witness?
THE COURT: Sure.
Go ahead.
MR. LESKO: And, Your Honor, I'm going to show for identification an exhibit, Government's 447, that has been previously, in part, admitted subject to connection.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. LESKO: The earlier 447 was a one-page exhibit and the replacement 447 is a five-page exhibit, for the record.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. LESKO: Thank you.
So Jay, I'm going to show you, up on the screen, the first page of Government's Exhibit 447.
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that exhibit?
MR. LESKO: And without getting into the details, is that an exhibit -- is that an e-mail sent to you from an attorney?
MR. LESKO: And then subsequently forwarded to your attorney?
MR. LESKO: At the top.
MR. LESKO: The second page of Government's Exhibit 447.
MR. LESKO: Do you recognize that page?
MR. LESKO: And without getting into the details, is that a letter in Spanish that you received?
MR. LESKO: And that's just a portion of it?
MR. LESKO: Was that a screen shot of it?
MR. LESKO: Okay.
MR. LESKO: I am actually going to not use the third page.
The fourth page.
MR. LESKO: Is that a full screen shot of the letter in Spanish?
MR. LESKO: And is that the letter that you received?
MR. LESKO: And the fourth page of Government's Exhibit 447.
MR. LESKO: Is that a translation of the letter in Spanish?
MR. LESKO: And is that the letter that you received?
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's Exhibit 447.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Government's Exhibit 447, pages 1, 2, 4 and 5 are received in evidence.
(Government's Exhibit 447, pages 1, 2, 4 and 5 received in evidence.)
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: So Jay, let's talk about the first page of Government's 447.
Could you -- the middle part of that exhibit, is that an e-mail that you received from someone?
(Exhibit published.)
MR. LESKO: The e-mail in the middle, from Diego Ruiz Duran?
Do you see that?
MR. LESKO: Is that dated October 11th, 2017?
MR. LESKO: Okay. Could you read that e-mail.
JAY: Dear Jay, my name is Diego Ruiz Duran, and I am an attorney whose services have been engaged by NXIVM, Mexico. I took the liberty of writing to you to let you know that the State's Attorneys office in Mexico has issued some directives against you and other individuals.
Attached please find such directives which will also be presented to you via certified mail. You should know that I also took the liberty to translate such document to English for your understanding.
Best regards, Bufete Ruiz Duran.
MR. LESKO: Okay. And was the Spanish letter, which is the fourth page of Government's 447 --
(Exhibit published.)
MR. LESKO: -- was that the letter referenced in that e-mail?
MR. LESKO: Okay. And is there a date on this letter? We will go through the translation, but is there a date on this letter?
MR. LESKO: And your name would have been right here?
MR. LESKO: And do you recognize that name that I'm pointing to right now?
MR. LESKO: What is that name?
MR. LESKO: Do you know who Alejandro Betancourt is?
MR. LESKO: Okay. And let's look at the last page of Government's 447.
MR. LESKO: Strike that.
Yes, Government's 447, last page.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. LESKO: And this translation of the letter, could you read the second paragraph.
JAY: Yes.
Stop, abstain and refrain from incurring in any type of intimidation, acts of nuisance, or disturbances against Alejandro Betancourt, legal representative of NXIVM, Mexico, or against NXIVM, Mexico, or against any clients and/or person with any sort of relation to the company referred herein.
MR. LESKO: And could you read the last paragraph, please.
JAY: Additionally, take notice that failure to comply with such measures shall bring along the imposition of urgency measures as provisioned by Article 104 of the National Code of Criminal Procedures. Such measures vary from a warning up to an arrest for 36 hours alongside criminal responsibilities that shall arise. Respectfully, State Attorney Agent Fernando Jose Gomez.
MR. LESKO: Did you have any connection with NXIVM, Mexico?
MR. LESKO: Do you know why you got this letter?
MR. LESKO: Did you end up retaining an attorney?
MR. LESKO: And is that the attorney referenced on the e-mail, Neil Glazer?
MR. LESKO: So -- so Jay, was your collateral ever returned to you?
MR. LESKO: Did you eventually determine that the defendant was in charge of the vow?
MR. LESKO: Would you have joined The Vow if you had known the defendant was in charge of it?
MR. LESKO: Would you have provided collateral if you knew the defendant was in charge of The Vow?
MR. LESKO: You testified that you previously held the defendant in high esteem; is it fair to say?
MR. LESKO: You testified that early on you held the defendant in high esteem?
MR. LESKO: Do you feel that way about him now?
MR. LESKO: How do you feel about him now?
MR. AGNIFILO: I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. LESKO: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We are going to take our morning break.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits.)
(In open court; outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: The witness may stand down. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Everyone may be seated.
How long do you think your cross will take?
MR. AGNIFILO: Not -- less than a half an hour.
THE COURT: And then the next witness is?
MR. LESKO: Anthony Valenziano, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Who is?
MR. LESKO: He's an attorney who is involved with the lawsuit where the videotapes, altered videotapes were produced.
THE COURT: All right. We will take a ten-minute break now.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, if I could ask. We have received some of the impeachment material, but I believe one item was submitted for in camera review and we have not -- oh, we have that?
MR. AGNIFILO: You do now. I'm about to hand it to you.
Do you have it?
MS. PENZA: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, they have it.
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, also, just a preview for the Court. We do have another witness lined up today, a law enforcement officer. I think that will take us to the end of the day, but we have another witness whose flight was delayed. So we only have two more witnesses for today.
THE COURT: You mean we might end early today?
MS. PENZA: Potentially.
THE COURT: Potentially. All right.
MR. LESKO: And we are still on track.
THE COURT: Got it. Okay. Thank you very much for letting me know.
All right. Let's take our break.
(Recess taken.) (In open court.)
(Judge NICHOLAS G. GARAUFIS enters the courtroom.)
COURT CLERK: All rise.
THE COURT: All right. Bring in the witness.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Your Honor make a decision on that piece of evidence? Because I think it will come up on the cross of this witness.
THE COURT: Yes. On the piece of evidence, yes, before the witness comes in.
Mr. Lesko.
MR. LESKO: I'm sorry. Was this the 2002?
THE COURT: The love note, if you will.
MR. LESKO: We have no objection to...
MS. PENZA: To impeachment.
MR. LESKO: To impeachment; correct.
THE COURT: Could we wait a moment before the witness comes in? Thank you.
This is not -- it is the letter from the witness to Mr. Raniere; right?
MR. LESKO: That's my understanding, yes.
THE COURT: Yes. Friday, April 26th, 2017.
MR. LESKO: If Mr. Agnifilo intends to use it properly as impeachment material, or to refresh her recollection, we would not object. If he's trying to admit it as he has with other similar items, as substantive evidence, we would obviously object to that.
THE COURT: Well.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think it's an exception to the hearsay rule. It's the witness's state of mind. It's a very clear statement of her state of mind as of that day and we think it's an exception under 8033.
THE COURT: I will allow you to put it in.
All right. Let's bring in the witness.
(Witness resumes stand.)
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
Cross-examination.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, Your Honor.