1.Nicole — Direct (Part 2)
1,882 lines(In open court; outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: Please be seated in the back.
Appearances.
MS. PENZA: Moira Penza, Tanya Hajjar, Mark Lesko for the United States. Also at the counsel table is Special Agent Michael Lever with the FBI, and Paralegal Specialist Teri Carby.
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Your Honor. Marc Agnifilo, Teny Geragos, Paul der Ohannesian, Danielle Smith for Keith Raniere, who is with us this morning.
THE COURT: Is there anything before I call in the witness and the jury?
MS. PENZA: Nothing from the Government.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's bring in the witness.
Everyone may be seated.
(Witness resumes the stand.)
THE COURT: Please bring in the jury.
(Jury enters the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning, members of the jury.
JURORS: Good morning.
THE COURT: All right, we will continue with the examination of the witness. You may proceed.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
THE COURT: I remind the witness she is still under oath.
NICOLE, called by the Government, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Good morning, Nicole.
MS. PENZA: I just want to pick up looking at what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 650.
This was the Facebook screen shot that you received from Allison Mack on April 16, 2016?
MS. PENZA: Okay. I just wanted to ask you, at the bottom right there is a thumb's down; is that right?
MS. PENZA: Did you create that at the time that you received this?
MS. PENZA: Did that happen much later?
MS. PENZA: How did it happen?
NICOLE: I was trying to bring up the message to show the FBI and I accidentally thumb's downed it.
MS. PENZA: So the original didn't have the thumb's down?
MS. PENZA: So after you received this Facebook message from Allison, what did you do?
NICOLE: I asked her what I should say -- oh, no, then I messaged -- sorry, I messaged again. It said that I needed to have him respond, so I sent another e-mail.
MS. PENZA: Did you end up sending a series of e-mails?
NICOLE: Yeah, I think I sent one -- I sent one more and then he still didn't respond, and then she was like really getting on me, and then she said that -- I mean, I think she said something like I was slow as molasses getting this accomplished and then she said if I didn't get him to respond by 3:00 a.m., I believe it was, that she would have to take a cold shower. So then I sent another e-mail.
MS. PENZA: Why did you do that?
NICOLE: Because I was scared that I was going to get in trouble and I also didn't want her to have to take a cold shower. At that time that seemed like kind of a crazy thing to do; I was like why do you have to do that if he's not answering? And I didn't want -- I did not want to make her have to do that, so I tried to e-mail again.
MS. PENZA: So, April 16, 2016 is the Facebook message.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I approach witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what are marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibits 1272, 1273, and 1275. Can you just take a look at those for me?
And are those the series of three e-mails that you sent to the defendant after receiving Allison Mack's Facebook message and response from the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibits 1272, 1273 and 1275 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibits 1272, 1273 and 1275 are received into evidence.
You may publish to the jury.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Government's Exhibits 1272, 1273 and 1275 received in evidence.)
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1272.
And was this the first e-mail -- this is now the second e-mail that you've sent to the defendant?
MS. PENZA: So is that why you say, I go around and around in circles trying to think of the right question to ask?
MS. PENZA: And do you remember there being a sense of urgency from Allison from the time you had gotten -- had first received the defendant's e-mail address until now in order to contact him with the right question?
MS. PENZA: And so you end up asking a question: The biggest question on my mind, how do I constantly challenge my fears and be joyful at the same time? While I'm challenging and facing my fears, my body feels constantly in fight or flight.
Do you remember asking that question?
MS. PENZA: And did you feel that way at the time?
NICOLE: Yes, especially when like she was putting a lot of pressure on me to get an answer. Every time she like gave me an assignment, my body just went into fight or flight because I was like-- because I knew I had to do it, so I would go into fight or fright.
MS. PENZA: And you say: I'm about to start the five day in New York City with Lauren.
Did you end up taking the five-day intensive again?
NICOLE: Yeah. Allison had talked about wanting me to do like more ESP curriculum, which she wanted -- it goes the five day and then like ten more days, but it had been such a long time I just said that I would rather do the first five day over again, then like do more.
MS. PENZA: And at the end, you say: In all the videos I've seen and things I've heard about you, you're very joyful and playful but for me, thinking about pushing on my fears for the rest of my life doesn't make me feel playful. It makes me feel scared and heavy hearted, it makes me want to run away.
Is that how you felt at the time?
MS. PENZA: And this is April 17, 2016, so the day after that Facebook message?
MS. PENZA: And did the defendant respond to this e-mail?
MS. PENZA: And April 18, so the next day, you send another e-mail?
MS. PENZA: And here, is this where you write: But Allison told me to be -- so you say: I have no idea how to befriend someone that I've never met, especially someone as intellectual and contemplative and as in demand as you, and having to do it over the internet while it's pushing against all sorts of things I hate, like bothering people or asking for things or feeling uncomfortable or, even worse, feeling needy or desperate.
Did you have any desire to be e-mailing the defendant?
MS. PENZA: And then you say: But Allison told me to be honest with you and the truth is that Allison is trying to push me, or I assume push against my fears, and is going to stand in a cold shower if I don't figure the out how to hear back from you by 3:00 a.m. Yeah, that's happening. I would personally prefer not to have her do that. I know, shocking. At least not on account of or because of my failure.
So did the defendant respond to this e-mail?
MS. PENZA: So did the defendant -- I'm now showing what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1275.
Before he responded, had you actually sent another e-mail as well?
MS. PENZA: Looking at the bottom?
NICOLE: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was just trying to think of anything to spark up a conversation so I sent one of my favorite Ted talks by JK Rowling.
MS. PENZA: So you sent -- so on the 18th at 5:20 a.m., you had sent the e-mail about her taking the cold shower, and then on the 18th at 12:42 p.m., you sent the Ted talk.
And then did the defendant respond on April 18 at 6:46 p.m.?
MS. PENZA: And, again, this is called polkadots and moonbeams?
MS. PENZA: But, again, your subject lines don't necessarily match --
MS. PENZA: -- what the content is?
MS. PENZA: Okay. So the defendant writes: Oh, dear, how far do you want (me) to go? Also the thing with Allison and the shower is not a good lever for me, but more of ethics later.
Did you know what that meant?
NICOLE: Not exactly, but I assumed that he considered what I did unethical, like I don't know why, but, yeah, that is what I got from it.
MS. PENZA: How committed are you to working to get this answer? It is a scarey difficult journey to experiencing existence with the lightness of true freedom with the depth of love.
Now, did you want to experience the lightness of true freedom with the depth of love?
MS. PENZA: Okay. And then you said: Thank you for persisting. I just got your three e-mails long after Allison just have start her refreshing shower.
So that's in response to the cold shower?
MS. PENZA: Now, did you respond -- did you end up responding to the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Did -- were you checking in with Allison during this time and telling her about whether there had been a response from the defendant?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, object to the leading.
THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
MS. PENZA: Sure.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, during this time, are you communicating with Allison?
MS. PENZA: And how is she responding?
MS. PENZA: And did she say that?
MS. PENZA: May I just have the ELMO for the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: All right.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what is marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 1378. It is a two-page e-mail chain.
Is this the back and forth between you and the defendant following his response?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, Government offers Government Exhibit 1378 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection, Judge.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 1378 is received in evidence.
(Government's Exhibit 1378 received in evidence.)
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
MS. PENZA: So, Nicole you wrote back to the defendant:
Yeah, I wasn't sure about that lever, but I got scared and panicked. Thank you for the feedback on that. I have so much to learn on ethics.
What's feedback?
NICOLE: That's like an ESP-like NXIVM word of like people were constantly giving you feedback on how you could improve or what you could do better. Yeah.
MS. PENZA: And then you talk about it's the whole process of acting and the discipline and the human exploration, and the person I have to become in order to be a great actor that I love?
MS. PENZA: You are talking about your interests here; are you talking about your interests in improving as an actor?
MS. PENZA: Was improving -- was that your focus?
NICOLE: I think that sentence is a very good way of explaining it. I loved exploring humanity and human nature, and learning how to be a more like grounded and better person so I could become the kind of performer I wanted to be. That's why I was doing all of this, you know. Yeah, yes.
MS. PENZA: And then, at the end, you say: I guess the other part of my question is why there has to be so much struggle and difficulty to get joy or freedom and how does one not get lost in the struggle and fear and hardship.
NICOLE: Yeah, so there's something that I noticed just about the ESP community. And also, what I was experiencing and going through, was everyone seems like everything needed to be a struggle and you had to be in pain, and you had to struggle in order to grow. And it just felt really overwhelming sometimes because I'm all for growing, but I just didn't want to live my life constantly like needing to struggle and feel bad or like find something to struggle against. Like, life gives you enough struggles.
MS. PENZA: And then, April 19, 2016, does the defendant respond?
MS. PENZA: And he says: True freedom in the physical world comes from absolute commitment to a principal with no tolerance for excuses or an out, escape. Only then do we find freedom does not depend on being able to do what we want; it depends on not being able to do what we want yet still experiencing self. Love is only measured through pain. Our ability to feel human pain determines the depth and strength of our love.
Is that what he wrote?
MS. PENZA: At this time, did you know that the defendant was part of DOS?
MS. PENZA: Those concepts, would those be -- were those DOS-related concepts?
MS. PENZA: And would you later discuss them with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: So during -- looking at April and May 2016, during that time period, what are your feelings about DOS?
NICOLE: Confusing. It was stressful and scarey to like constantly be facing this like commitment that there was no out of. It felt really scarey, but also, like, Allison was still being nice a lot of the time and she was helping me with some career stuff, so it was a little bit confusing.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I have the ELMO for the witness, please?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 665.
Are you familiar with this document?
MS. PENZA: And is this an e-mail chain back and forth between you and -- or is this an e-mail chain involving you and Allison Mack on April 20, 2016?
MS. PENZA: The Government moves Government Exhibit 665 in evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 665 is received in evidence.
(Government's Exhibit 665 received in evidence.)
THE COURT: Publish to the jury.
MS. PENZA: Thanks.
(Exhibit published.)
MS. PENZA: Nicole, can you explain this e-mail from April 20, 2016?
NICOLE: Yeah. So there were a couple of things happening right at that point. This e-mail is that she had set up an interview for me at her agency, which was a really -- and is a really great agency in New York City and Los Angeles, they're on both coasts -- for commercials, theater, film, everything. So she had set up a meeting and this was the e-mail from one of the agents that I met with afterward.
MS. PENZA: So when you described things as being confusing, was this an example of one of the things that made you feel like you might be getting something that you wanted out of this?
NICOLE: Yeah, like there were two things. So there was this meeting and then there was she had set up my first off-Broadway audition, which went really well. And so that was more what I thought, you know, like what I was looking for with a mentorship and she really was like helping me, these were actual steps towards my career that would have been helpful. So I was sort of like in this kind of pull of being this is scaring the daylights out of me, like what's happening, but she is also helping me with my career. So I was -- I was just confused -- or in the middle of, you know, not sure how to feel about it.
MS. PENZA: During April and May of 2016, did you begin -- were you spending more time in Clifton Park, New York?
MS. PENZA: Can you explain what your schedule was like at that time?
NICOLE: Pretty intense. As I've mentioned, I was working at -- full time at a nightclub, so I would work 9:30 at night until 5:00 in the morning and by the time I got home on the train it would be like 6:00 a.m. And I'd try to sleep for a few hours and then wake up and I would either, like, teach a source or then I would get -- let's say I was working Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, which is very exhausting at a nightclub. Then Sunday, either after I finished work I would take the bus up to Albany, or like Monday would be my day off, I would take the bus up to Albany, stay Monday night in Albany and take the bus back Tuesday in order to work Tuesday night if I was scheduled Tuesday night. It was crazy.
MS. PENZA: Were you -- how did you decide to go up to Clifton Park?
MS. PENZA: And how did it -- how did you take it when she told you to come up to Clifton Park?
NICOLE: Maybe like the first time, fine, but then it was -- I was so exhausted. And I was moving at the same time, like moving apartments, so I fought back on it a little bit because it was like I genuinely couldn't do everything. And so, I was so exhausted.
MS. PENZA: And did you tell her that? Did you push back to Allison?
MS. PENZA: And how did she react?
NICOLE: She said it was very important for me to be up there and start to like be up there and show her commitment, you know, at least like once a week for the beginning -- or she said it was very important and that I needed to -- this is what I committed to, I needed to make that a priority.
MS. PENZA: How were you paying for those trips?
MS. PENZA: How much would it cost?
NICOLE: So, like taking the train from Grand Central to Albany is $42 one way, and the bus was usually like $20. So if I could time the bus right, I was trying to do that. But also it was like a little easier to sleep on the train, so sometimes I would like spoil myself and take the train so I could sleep. But it was $20 to $42 one way.
MS. PENZA: At that point in time, was that amount of money something that concerned you?
MS. PENZA: Now, when you would -- and then when you would get to Clifton Park, where would you stay?
MS. PENZA: Did you have a bed there?
MS. PENZA: Where would you sleep?
MS. PENZA: What was it like staying with Allison?
NICOLE: At least she had like -- she had a nice little house, so that was nice. But it was very stressful, especially in the beginning because I would go up there and I wouldn't really know what to expect. I just -- you don't really feel that comfortable because you're not in your space. And -- yeah.
MS. PENZA: At some point, while you were staying with Allison, did the defendant walk by the house?
MS. PENZA: Is this in April 2016?
MS. PENZA: Had he ever -- in the times you had gone up to Clifton Park prior to that occasion, had the defendant ever walked by Allison's house that you remember?
MS. PENZA: So what happened on that occasion?
NICOLE: I was waiting for Allison to get home, and I was just at the house by myself, and I saw Keith walk by and I thought, oh, like that's the person I've been e-mailing back and forth with, like I should go say hi. And, so, I went outside and I said hi.
MS. PENZA: And what happened when you said hi?
NICOLE: He like said hi and finished talking to the person that he was talking to and asked me if I wanted to go on a walk.
MS. PENZA: And did you go on a walk with him?
MS. PENZA: Did he say anything about the walk?
MS. PENZA: Sorry, let me strike that question.
At that point in time, did you attach any particular significance to going on a walk with the defendant?
NICOLE: I had heard people -- I think I said it in one of those e-mails, like I had heard Emi -- or, like, talk about these walks and apparently, you know, they were, like, walks that he helped people work through things or -- and people, like, waited around awhile to go on these walks, so that was kind of all I knew about it.
MS. PENZA: Did the defendant say anything to you about why he was going on a walk with you?
NICOLE: Yeah, he said that I had earned -- because we had been, like, going back and forth on e-mail, that I had earned a walk.
MS. PENZA: What else happened on that walk?
NICOLE: He talked about -- I mean, I'm sure he asked me some questions, but we were just kind of walking and I remember him asking, like, how much I knew about him, which was not a lot, or knew about his lifestyle, which was not a lot.
MS. PENZA: Did he tell you any details about his lifestyle?
NICOLE: Just that he had a partner, Pam, but that he wasn't married and that he, like, had more than one partner.
MS. PENZA: Do you remember any other details until we get to the end of the walk?
NICOLE: Not really, except just thinking, like, I wasn't really sure why I needed to know that information, but aside from that, no.
MS. PENZA: How did the -- did something happen that ended the walk?
NICOLE: Yeah. So we started -- we were, like, walking, still walking and it started to rain, and he asked me if I could get -- if I knew how to get back to Allison's house from where we were, because Clifton Park is very confusing, and I said yes, I thought I did. And he said -- and I think he was commenting to the rain or maybe the -- how we had met, I don't know what it was to, but he said isn't this funny that this is our first date.
MS. PENZA: Did you say anything in response?
NICOLE: I just remember, like, not quite being able to wrap my head around it, because I thought what? Like, what?
MS. PENZA: Did he say something else?
NICOLE: Well, he asked me if I was okay because I obviously -- I looked, like, kind of shellshocked, I imagine, because I was like -- I don't know, I was trying to wrap my head around it; like, what did he just say and what does that even mean?
And so when he asked me if I was okay, I said yeah, I'm just feeling overwhelmed. I'm okay, though, I'm just feeling overwhelmed. And he said bye and I ran back to -- I ran back to Allison's house.
MS. PENZA: Did the defendant say anything about when he would -- that he would contact you again?
NICOLE: Yeah, I think, like, in that same sentence he, like, asked me if -- or -- asked me if we would go on another walk, if I wanted to go on another walk. I think I just said yes. I don't remember.
MS. PENZA: So, on that run back, how are you feeling?
NICOLE: Scared, and, again, still trying to, like, kind of -- just, like, my body doesn't feel okay. I wasn't really thinking. I didn't know what to think, but I remember that my body really did not feel okay.
MS. PENZA: Were you attracted to the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Did you have any interest in dating him?
MS. PENZA: Now, what happened when you got back to Allison's house?
NICOLE: There was a source meeting going on at the time I got back, so I, like, sat there while they finished the -- like, meeting on video. And when it was done, she asked me how -- like, where I had been and how the walk had gone, and I said that I -- I said that I thought that this had been like a whole plot to get me up here for Keith and -- that's what it felt like. I wasn't, like, accusing her, because I was so out of my element, but I was like this feels like a plot to get me up here for Keith.
MS. PENZA: And how did Allison respond?
NICOLE: She said, oh, sweetie, that's -- like, I'm so glad that you told me that. That's not true, but it's really, really good that you can trust me enough to tell me that. But that's not true, that's not what's happening, but that's such a good sign that you can trust me enough to tell me that.
MS. PENZA: At that point, what was the effect of Allison saying that to you?
NICOLE: I mean, I was already stuck. Like that. You know, I thought I didn't have a choice, so I wanted to believe that, or I wanted to believe her.
MS. PENZA: After that, did you end up going on additional walks with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: How would those walks end up -- those first walks, how would they end up being arranged?
MS. PENZA: And can you explain that?
NICOLE: So, a lot of these times these walks would be at like three or four in the morning, and so I would be asleep and he would either call or text Allison and she would tell me to go outside.
MS. PENZA: And would you -- so you'd be sleeping in her bed?
MS. PENZA: Did she have -- what was -- did you note that there was a particular alert for the defendant on her phone?
NICOLE: Yeah. I had just, like, learned that there was a particular sound that she had, like her phone, too, for when Keith texted her. So I, like, knew when that was coming.
MS. PENZA: At some point did you end up having a physical response when you would hear that?
NICOLE: Yeah, because again, in the beginning, it was like I was so in fight or flight. So immediately when that sound would go off, I'd go into fight or flight.
(Continued on following page.)
BY MS. PENZA (Continuing):
MS. PENZA: What time of day would these walks be arranged?
MS. PENZA: Happen, I'm sorry.
NICOLE: Like, three or four -- two, three, four, five in the morning, somewhere around those times.
MS. PENZA: On one of these early walks, did the Defendant talk to you about Allison?
NICOLE: Yes. He said that I had gotten the first walk with him because of Allison, because she spoke really highly of me and because she was -- he thought very highly of her.
MS. PENZA: And did he talk to you at all about your relationship with Allison?
MS. PENZA: So, at that point, was the Defendant acknowledging to you that he was part of DOS?
MS. PENZA: Did you know he was part of DOS at that point?
MS. PENZA: At some point in these early walks, did you start to feel like he was talking about DOS?
NICOLE: Yes.
And it drove me nuts because he'd be, like, talking to me about, like, commitment and these things, and I'm like you're talking about -- like, you're talking about what I'm struggling with, yet you're not supposed to know what I'm struggling with, I'm not allowed to talk to you about what I'm struggling, and, yet, you're, like, telling me about commitment and trusting people and all these things. And it was, like, so confusing in my head because I'm like do you know or isn't this just a coincidence or, like, what is going on?
But it just seemed too weird for him not to know, yet I had no -- I had no reason to believe that he was part of this women's organization. I had, like, other women that I was, like, trying to guess who was Allison's mentor.
MS. PENZA: Did you actually make guesses as to who you thought was her --
MS. PENZA: Who did you guess?
MS. PENZA: What's Esther's last name?
MS. PENZA: Who is she in the NXIVM community?
NICOLE: Just, like, someone who'd been at the community for a long time. She ran -- I think she ran Jness.
But Allison kind of talked about Esther sometimes, so that was -- and she seemed like a -- like a cool woman, so that was my guess.
MS. PENZA: Now, did the Defendant ever talk to you about trusting Allison?
MS. PENZA: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
NICOLE: Well, he would talk to me about trusting Allison, but trust in general and how you had to trust and how, like, you -- it was I don't know if it would, like, get you closer to enlightenment or this idea of freedom if you trusted in someone completely and utterly.
And I was like, well, I don't know because how does that really make sense? Like, how can someone else know what's best for you, right? They can, like, tell you things that maybe you could improve on, but how could anyone really know what's best for you?
And, also, Allison's only four years older than me, so it's not like it's this wise woman that's, like, telling me the ways of the world, you know? It's someone who's four years older than me.
So, I was like, I don't feel like she can know what's best for me better than me.
And he was like, Well, the fact that she's, like, imperfect makes it -- is even more important in helping you towards freedom because if you can trust fully in a person who is flawed, then that will -- that's, like, I don't know then you can find real freedom.
And I was sort of like, I'm not sure that makes sense to me but, okay.
MS. PENZA: When you -- one other question that I meant to ask you earlier.
When you would come to Albany, you came on either a bus or a train?
MS. PENZA: So, once you were in Albany, what would you do for transportation?
NICOLE: So, like, when you get into the bus station or the train station, you're still pretty far away from Clifton Park, which is where the NXIVM community is. In the beginning, Allison would pick me up. But once it got further into it, I was supposed to find my own way from the bus to Clifton Park.
And taxis are really not easy to find in Albany, so you usually had to get someone -- pay someone from the NXIVM community to come and pick you up.
MS. PENZA: And once you were in Clifton Park, what type of transportation did you have available to you?
NICOLE: Walking or sometimes Allison would let me use her car to, like, go get groceries or something to eat because, obviously, I would be up there for the night.
MS. PENZA: Did you need to ask permission for that?
MS. PENZA: During these early walks with the Defendant, did he ever ask you any personal questions?
NICOLE: Yeah. He would, like, ask me to think about things. So, like, he would ask me some questions and I was supposed to go back, go to work, think about them, and then come back to Albany and have answers.
So, they were, like, What's the worst thing you've ever done? What are you afraid of? Just, like, superpersonal questions.
MS. PENZA: One of those was what's the worst thing you've ever done?
MS. PENZA: Did he also ask you about what would be the hardest thing to tell him?
NICOLE: Yeah, like, what would be the hardest thing to tell him, what I was the most afraid of, yeah. Questions like that.
MS. PENZA: During these early walks, did you ever discuss the conversations you had had with the Defendant with Allison?
MS. PENZA: Did you ever talk to her about whether the Defendant was in DOS?
NICOLE: I think, like, I might have asked her because, again, like, it just seems too odd that everything he was telling me seemed to be about DOS. So, I would just tell her that, like, it seems like he knows what we're talking about.
MS. PENZA: And what would she say?
NICOLE: Just like she had told me in the beginning: It didn't have anything to do with NXIVM. Like, no, she would just say no.
MS. PENZA: At some point, did Allison give you another assignment?
MS. PENZA: How did she introduce that assignment to you?
NICOLE: One morning before a walk, she told me to go outside and tell Keith that I would do anything that he asked me to do.
MS. PENZA: Was -- were you already on your way to having a walk?
NICOLE: Yeah, I was, like, kind of right -- that morning, right before the walk, I have had another assignment for you. When you go out there, you're going to tell Keith that you'll do exact -- whatever he wants you to do.
MS. PENZA: At that point, what choice did you feel you had in completing that assignment?
MS. PENZA: Did Allison say anything else to you before you started the walk?
MS. PENZA: So, what did you do?
NICOLE: I went outside, and he was waiting outside, like, out the backdoor of Allison's house. And we started walking, and I was, like, too nervous to say it. So, we walked a little ways and then I just, like, kind of blurted it out like, I'll do whatever you want me to do.
MS. PENZA: How did you feel saying that?
NICOLE: Not good. I mean, it definitely -- I was just saying it because I had to. I didn't want to say it.
MS. PENZA: Now, what did the Defendant say after you said that?
MS. PENZA: Then what happened?
MS. PENZA: And then what?
NICOLE: I don't remember whether it was right away or at the end of the walk, but he said that he would have me come back out and say it when I really meant it.
MS. PENZA: At some point during that walk, did he ask you another question?
MS. PENZA: What did he ask you?
MS. PENZA: How did you feel when he asked you that?
MS. PENZA: Did you start thinking about things?
NICOLE: Yes. I think in the situation that you're in when you feel like you have no choice, when someone says, What's the worst thing that you can do, it's incredibly scary. And I remember, like, looking up at the roof of a house that we were, like, walking past and thinking, like, oh, my God, like, he could ask me to jump off that roof. And then in my head, just being, like, he could ask -- my head started going over, like, all sorts of things, like, worst case scenario.
So I told him, I said, You know, I thought that it would be -- I thought that it would be something sexual that would be the worst thing that you could ask me to do, but that's actually not true. The worst thing that you could ask me to do would be to ask me to hurt someone in my family or hurt myself or hurt someone else.
MS. PENZA: And did you explain that?
NICOLE: Yeah. Like, if he asked me to, like, again, jump off a bridge and commit suicide, like -- I mean, I know it sounds completely crazy, but, like, you know, or to hurt someone. Like, when your brain is thinking like that, like worst case scenario, you're like what if someone asked you to kill someone? What if someone asked you -- so I was, like, what if he asked me to never speak to my family again?
I was slightly freaking out.
MS. PENZA: How did the Defendant respond when you said that to him?
NICOLE: He said, like, Do you really think that I would ask you to do those things?
And then I sort of like calmed down a little bit. And, I mean, I didn't know, but...
MS. PENZA: By those things, do you mean -- did he specifically respond about what you said about hurting somebody?
NICOLE: Yeah. Like my family, like never speaking to my family again, or hurting my family in a physical way, that was what I -- that was what I got from it.
MS. PENZA: Did he say anything about you saying that you thought the worst was something sexual?
MS. PENZA: Looking back, do you have a view on how that exchange with the Defendant affected you?
NICOLE: Yeah. I mean, at the time I was feeling like there are just these vibes that I was getting, like something, like, something sexual is going on, like, in this community or situation, and I didn't feel good about it. But, like, in that walk and him asking me that question, it all of a sudden makes something sexual not that bad because by comparison it's not. Like, something sexual happening would only hurt me, no one else gets hurt, so, in the circumstances, it's not that bad.
And I can just kind of see, like, the thought process of where that was what I was most afraid of, and all of a sudden by the end of that walk that wasn't what I was most afraid of.
MS. PENZA: And you said either at some point in the walk or at the end of the walk the Defendant said -- said what to you?
MS. PENZA: After that, did you go back to Allison's house?
Is there something else on that walk?
NICOLE: Yes, sorry.
I think we talked about, like, bravery and commitment as well on that walk. Because I remember just, like, that was on my mind, that I needed to be brave and I needed to be committed, so...
MS. PENZA: So, after that walk, did you go back to Allison's house?
MS. PENZA: And did you tell her about what had happened?
MS. PENZA: And what did she say?
MS. PENZA: And did you end up doing that?
MS. PENZA: So, did that walk get arranged the same way as the others?
MS. PENZA: So, were you in Allison's bed?
MS. PENZA: And what happened?
NICOLE: I was sleeping in Allison's bed. I believe it was a call that morning. He called Allison and Allison told me to go outside.
MS. PENZA: And what happened when you went outside?
Sorry, would you exit the backdoor of Allison's house?
NICOLE: Yeah, I would always go out the backdoor and across the grass, and there was, like, a grove road out there.
MS. PENZA: And, so, did you do that?
MS. PENZA: And what happened?
How were you feeling?
MS. PENZA: And, so, then what happened next?
NICOLE: He said hi, and we started walking, and I was like okay, you can do this, you can do this, and I said, I will do anything you ask me to do.
MS. PENZA: And what did he say?
MS. PENZA: And then what happened?
NICOLE: He took my hand and took me across the street, like, directly across from Allison's house into another house.
MS. PENZA: Do you know the house number?
MS. PENZA: Is it on Flintlock Lane?
MS. PENZA: Do you know the numbers of the other houses?
NICOLE: I know it's, like, directly across from, like, Allison's backdoor and then you walk across. I couldn't tell you numbers.
MS. PENZA: Do you know who lived on the other side of the house?
MS. PENZA: No, on Flintlock.
MS. PENZA: So, did the Defendant touch you at that point?
MS. PENZA: What was that house like?
MS. PENZA: And what happened?
NICOLE: He asked me to trust him. Like, no matter what was about to happen to trust him. And, like, would I? Would I trust him no matter what was about to happen?
And I said yes. I mean, I already said I would do anything he asked, so I said, Yes.
MS. PENZA: And what did he ask you to do?
MS. PENZA: Were you fully naked?
MS. PENZA: And then what did the Defendant do?
NICOLE: Like, he was sitting down and I was standing up, and he was just, like, commenting on my body, like, my belly button piercing. I don't have it pierced anymore, but, like, what did I take it out. Like that.
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry to ask such a personal question, did he make any comments about your pubic hair?
MS. PENZA: Can you explain?
MS. PENZA: And he said he was surprised?
MS. PENZA: And did he make any other comments?
NICOLE: He said -- and I responded, like, Yeah, I've been celibate for three months. Sorry, it's not the first thing on my mind.
Or, like, something like that.
He said that that was okay, that's what he liked.
MS. PENZA: At that point in time, did you have any thoughts?
NICOLE: Yeah. It was, like, all these little, like, things started clicking in my head because I had -- I was, like, staying with Allison, so I obviously had seen her getting in and out of the shower. And I don't know, something about that comment, the way he said it, like, No, it's okay, that's what I like, that I just, like, clicked in my head, and I was, like, oh, he has a sexual relationship with Allison, like, I was right about that.
And then it was just like, oh, yeah, that -- like, I know that's what's about to happen. At the time, that's what I thought.
MS. PENZA: Just to connect up the dots, when you had seen Allison naked, had you seen her pubic hair?
MS. PENZA: And it was ungroomed?
MS. PENZA: What happened after the Defendant commented on your body.
NICOLE: He told me to put back on my clothes and he said that had there are two blindfolds to put on.
MS. PENZA: Did he put those blindfolds on you?
MS. PENZA: Can you explain the purpose of the blindfolds?
NICOLE: I guess, like -- I don't remember exactly what they were, but one was, like, tighter because it left marks under my eyes, and the other was, like, tied around that.
MS. PENZA: After he put the blindfolds on you, did he say anything to you?
MS. PENZA: So, then what happened?
MS. PENZA: Do you remember about how long you drove?
NICOLE: No. It was, like, I don't -- I couldn't tell you how long it was, but it didn't seem like super, super close, but it wasn't that long. Maybe ten minutes.
MS. PENZA: And did you talk during the ride?
MS. PENZA: Did you eventually end up somewhere?
NICOLE: Yeah. We eventually stopped, he came around, took my hand, took me, like, through the woods? I mean, I just remember, like, feeling things crash under my feet, like branches breaking.
MS. PENZA: You couldn't see anything?
MS. PENZA: And, so, he walked you on these branches, and then do you remember...
NICOLE: Then I stepped up on, like, a step and then into a room or little -- like, in my imagination it was, like, a little, like, cabin. But I don't really know.
MS. PENZA: Did you go through a door?
MS. PENZA: What happened once you were through the door?
MS. PENZA: When he told you to get undressed, were you able to do that yourself with the blindfold on?
NICOLE: I think so. Yeah, I just had, like, sweatpants and a sweatshirt on or something simple. So, taking it off was okay, I think.
MS. PENZA: Was the table close to where you had come in?
NICOLE: No, well, it felt like it, but I think he, like, led me to the table. But it didn't feel very far away.
MS. PENZA: How did the -- did you get on the table?
NICOLE: Yeah, he told me to get on the table. And then he tied my wrists and my feet to, like, different sides.
MS. PENZA: To each of the corners?
MS. PENZA: How did the table feel?
MS. PENZA: How did you feel being tied up on the table?
NICOLE: Like super vulnerable and exposed. And I was hoping that maybe that was it, like, maybe that was -- that maybe that was the whole thing, you know, just that I had to be super vulnerable and exposed.
MS. PENZA: Did something else happen?
MS. PENZA: How did you feel at that moment?
Did you think it was the Defendant at that moment?
MS. PENZA: And then did something happen?
NICOLE: Yeah. And I was still, like, trying to process -- just process what was happening, and then he, Keith, started talking. And I was so confused, obviously. I was like what is happening?
And I realized that there was another person in the room.
MS. PENZA: So, another person who was not the Defendant was the one performing oral sex on you?
NICOLE: Yeah. It's the only way that it made sense. He was talking to me, like, up here and someone is still going down on me. So, I was like holy shit, there's somebody else in the room.
MS. PENZA: How did that moment feel?
NICOLE: I mean, just -- it's terrifying. You don't know -- I mean, I'm trying to, like, process what's going on. Like, there is someone else in the room, okay, so now there's two people in the room. Is there three people in the room? Like, how many people are in this room right now?
And, like, I just was trying to -- and it was kind of like just stay calm, just try and breathe, just try and stay calm. And, also, Keith was talking to me at that time. He was, like, walking around the table asking me questions. So, I was trying to stay calm and figure out what was going on and, also, answer the questions that he was asking me. And, so, it was just a lot.
MS. PENZA: Did the Defendant say anything about who -- so, the Defendant is walking around the table while this is happening?
MS. PENZA: Do you have any recollection of about how long this went on?
MS. PENZA: Did the Defendant say anything about who was performing oral sex on you?
NICOLE: No. Later on, he said that -- well, at that moment, I was -- like, I felt hair, which in the circumstances made me feel a little bit calmer, like at least it was -- I don't know why I felt, like, a tiny bit safer that it was a woman and not another man and just me in the room. I don't know why that made me feel safer.
But later on, he said that it was, like, a woman and that I would never know who it was.
MS. PENZA: Much later?
MS. PENZA: But at that time, he didn't tell you who it was?
MS. PENZA: What other questions did the Defendant ask you as he circled around you?
NICOLE: He was asking me, like, if I had ever been in a threesome, if I -- how many people I had been with, like, how many people at once I had been with. He was asking me all these questions about my sexual history, yeah.
MS. PENZA: Did the Defendant ever tell you whether you were being videotaped?
MS. PENZA: Did the Defendant ask you if you were okay at some point?
MS. PENZA: And did you respond?
MS. PENZA: At some point, did the performing oral sex on you end?
MS. PENZA: Then what happened?
NICOLE: He untied me and he had helped me put back on my clothes because, obviously, I didn't know where they were and I was blindfolded still. He took me back to the car, he drove back to the house, and then he took me back into the original house and he took off the blindfolds.
MS. PENZA: And did you two sit down at that point in the original house?
MS. PENZA: How were you feeling at this point?
MS. PENZA: And, so, then what happened?
NICOLE: So then he asked me if I was okay again. I just said yes. He said he wanted me to know that nothing bad had just happened and that I was a young woman who was allowed to be sexual and I was not in a relationship so what happened was not bad.
And I do remember thinking, like, I'm not in a relationship because, like, Allison told me to not be in a relationship right now. But that was just, like, a side note that my brain said.
And then he said -- I don't know, he started talking to me again about, like, trust. And he said that that was very -- that I was very brave. And he was just kind of talking, and, eventually, I just felt like can I go? Like, I did what you asked me to do, can I go? In my head, I was just like Can I just go.
And finally I said that out loud, I said, Can I go?
And he told me not to tell anyone what had happened. And I asked if I could tell Allison, and he said yes. And then I went to leave.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MS. PENZA: (Continuing)
MS. PENZA: When you walked out, did the defendant stay watching you?
NICOLE: So I walked out -- yeah, he, like, walked out after me and I walked out. And I remember, like, it being really bright, really bright out because the sun had already risen and I had, A, been blindfolded for a while, but also I think I had left the house at, like, 4 o'clock in the morning and now the sun had rose so I just remember it being really bright when I walked out. And then I looked up and I saw Emi running with Clare and I ran, and I ran to Emi and I just hugged him because, you know, I always felt safe with Emi. So I just wanted to feel safe so I hugged him.
MS. PENZA: Do you know what day this took place?
MS. PENZA: Is there something that would refresh your recollection of that?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I have the ELMO just for the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I just, may I have a moment with defense counsel as well?
THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.
(Pause.)
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: Did you exchange text messages with Emiliano that day?
MS. PENZA: Would looking at those help date this?
Okay. I'm going to ask you -- you don't need to read anything from the messages. I'm going to show you --
MS. PENZA: I don't have it marked for identification, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Give it a number.
MS. PENZA: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you a four page document or the third page of a four page document that has been marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 665.
MS. PENZA: Can you see that?
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. PENZA: And looking at the bottom of this page, does that refresh your recollection of the day that this event happened?
MS. PENZA: What was the date?
MS. PENZA: Now, did you end up telling Allison what happened?
MS. PENZA: So you went back to the house?
MS. PENZA: And then what happened when you got to Allison?
NICOLE: I think that I went and took a shower first. And then I came back out and sat with her in front of the fireplace and I told her what happened.
MS. PENZA: And did she say anything to you?
NICOLE: She seemed a little bit freaked out by what had happened. I don't think she knew exactly what was going to happen, but she also said that I was really brave. And, yeah, she also said that I was really brave.
MS. PENZA: Do you remember whether -- did you actually have to go work that day?
NICOLE: Yeah, I also think she said, like, something, that I had, like, earned, like, working more with Keith or something like that. But, yes, I had to go back to the City that afternoon and work.
MS. PENZA: Did the defendant contact you after that?
MS. PENZA: Did you know how the defendant had gotten your phone number?
MS. PENZA: Prior to that, had you been texting with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Showing you, Nicole --
MS. PENZA: May I have this just for the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: Actually, Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
MS. PENZA: I'm showing you what is marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 659. Are you familiar with this?
MS. PENZA: Do you want to take just a quick look through it?
MS. PENZA: Yes. You can just look through the pages and make sure it's a document you're familiar with.
(Pause.)
MS. PENZA: And is this a, an exchange of e-mails between you and Allison ending on June 1, 2016?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 659 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 659 is received in evidence. You may publish it to the jury.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
(So marked.)
MS. PENZA: I'm showing you the front page of Government Exhibit 659. You're familiar with this exchange?
MS. PENZA: And is this -- are these back-and-forth's of these journal entries that you would write to Allison?
MS. PENZA: And would she always respond?
MS. PENZA: Sometimes she would respond?
MS. PENZA: And sometimes would you continue your responses on the same chain?
MS. PENZA: Let's just look at a few before we get to the beginning of the chain.
I'm just showing you May 23, 2016. You say you realized you're filled with anger, anger at the situation, angry at yourself, but that you're also choosing to be angry.
MS. PENZA: Can you just give a little explanation about your mental state at this point and elaborate on those types of comments?
NICOLE: Yes. I mean, well, I think I'm angry at my situation because I feel like I'm stuck in this situation, I'm stuck in this situation and I'm angry at myself for, like, how -- like, handing over the collateral. Like, it was constantly reminded to me, like, I made this commitment and it was I, it was, like -- I did this, Allison would always say.
So I'm really just angry. I'm angry at the situation. I'm angry at myself. Like, why didn't I see, like, just, that, that what was happening. And then, like, kind of a -- it's something that Allison would say is that, yeah, but you're choosing to be angry, you don't have to be angry about this, you're choosing to be angry. So I -- yeah.
MS. PENZA: Okay. And then is it fair to say that these journal entries, just in general, would reflect a lot of these up and down emotions that you would have?
MS. PENZA: Now, did you feel you could be completely truthful in these journal entries?
NICOLE: No, because, I mean, they were still going to Allison. Like, she was still reading all of them. And, you know, the first time when I had, like -- well, when I had said that I had given out my phone number to that boy, like, she had flipped out so bad, like, I was kind of aware of that, of, that she was reading them. So I didn't want to say anything that would get me too, into trouble, but I also wanted her to understand she can't help me. Supposedly, she was helping me. At this point, like, she can't help me if she doesn't know my mental state.
So it was always this game between, like, not upsetting her too much but also, like, telling her, like, when I was happy or when I was really upset or how, back and forth, I was all of the time.
MS. PENZA: And were there also -- were there specific directives about how explicit you could be in e-mails?
NICOLE: Yeah. You couldn't -- I couldn't, like, say, like, reference DOS or reference, like, certain relationships or -- is that what you mean?
MS. PENZA: Well, like, for example, like, would you write "Master" typically?
NICOLE: No. I asked if I could refer to her as "A," obviously not really creative for "Allison," but, because I just -- well, two things. That it felt better to me, it felt not as weird, but also for, like, secrecy reasons, it was better so no one could figure out what was going on.
MS. PENZA: And I guess that's my question. Were there other things where it felt like there had to be a level of secrecy in the e-mails?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to object.
THE COURT: Hold on.
Sustained.
MS. PENZA: Would you have felt comfortable writing in an e-mail what had happened with the defendant?
NICOLE: Well, I wasn't -- well, I wasn't supposed to talk about what happened, but also -- no, I wouldn't have felt comfortable, but I didn't want to talk to anyone about it. I didn't want -- I didn't want to think about it again.
MS. PENZA: Understood but, like, explicit details?
NICOLE: No. No, because no one else was supposed to know either. So, like, I was allowed to tell just Allison but no one else was supposed to know so if I put it in an e-mail, that would have been, like, dangerous.
MS. PENZA: In general, were there, were there different forms of communication that were considered?
MS. PENZA: Yes.
MS. PENZA: Was e-mail considered less safe?
MS. PENZA: Okay. I'm going to show you your journal entry just because I want to -- we're going to get to Allison's response to you. So May 30, 2016, 3:42 a.m., you talk about jumping, that you went to work and then jumped on a bus to Albany after?
MS. PENZA: Is that what happened?
NICOLE: So that, yeah, that must have been a day that I went to work and then got the bus right after work and went up to Albany.
MS. PENZA: And then showing you the front page of Government Exhibit 659, so this is an entry and it's being written on June 1, 2016 at 6:16 a.m., but appears to refer to May 31st, 2016. Would that make sense to you?
NICOLE: Yeah. So, some, you know -- again, I didn't leave work until 5 in the morning or, obviously, sometimes later, and it would be the next day. So, like, if it was the next day, sometimes I'd, like, write that the journal entry was referring to the day before.
MS. PENZA: And you write -- and so this is the same day that we just, that the incident happened?
MS. PENZA: And so do you remember going back to the City afterwards?
MS. PENZA: So you wrote: It's 6 a.m. I'm just getting to bed and am insanely angry right now, beyond angry, because once again I've gotten back to the City and my life is a mess here. Nothing is organized and I have so much to catch up on. I was so on board with the convo. A. and I had this morning about the benefits of coming to Albany and taking full advantage of the time I have up here, watching movies and working on my art. I am done fighting the growing process. It's obviously good for me and even though I was very emotional and uncomfortable, I can feel it helping. I'm excited about embracing the vow and working with Keith, but coming back every week to an unorganized home and hectic life here feels awful. Words can't even express how stressful and bad it feels to me. And it makes me hate the whole growing process because I can't catch up. If fills my whole body with this raged up anger and pain which clearly feels awful. A. wonders why I come up in a fit and upset. It's because no matter how much I say, I just need a couple of days and she doesn't believe me. And I have to come home every week to a mess and then work until 5 a.m. in the morning. It sucks. And I have a hard time focusing on source stuff and moving forward with my acting when my room is a mess and my taxes still aren't done and there's no system set up so I can push myself and learn and not feel like I'm flailing around. I would like to enjoy this process and enjoy going up to Albany. I'm going to go this coming week because I said I would, but I have to have a break soon. I need to talk to A. I need her to understand that I need a couple full days to get organized. I need a week where I don't go up. Not to avoid feeling vulnerable but to get grounded so I can be more vulnerable. I hate going to bed filled with so much anger.
Do you remember writing that e-mail?
MS. PENZA: And can you just explain?
NICOLE: Yeah. I was just really angry. I was just really frustrated that Allison. She wouldn't listen to me. I kept asking for, I just -- I had just moved to a new place and I hadn't had time to, like, unpack things. Like, I was so under and she just wouldn't listen to me and I was so angry and I didn't want to go to Albany and -- I don't know.
MS. PENZA: Do you have any idea why you didn't mention what had happened with the defendant in this e-mail?
NICOLE: Because I wasn't supposed to talk about it and also, like, I didn't want to think about it.
MS. PENZA: At that point, did you feel like you had actually -- had you processed what had happened at that point?
NICOLE: I don't, I don't think so. I don't -- I don't think I processed what had actually happened for a really long time, but I, I was emotionally upset.
MS. PENZA: And Allison responded to you?
MS. PENZA: I'm going to read Allison's response.
So, June 1, 2016, 6:36 a.m.: Same pattern as always. I could have predicted this check in. I feel sad, thought you were through this but okay. And by the way, maybe part of your growth process is to have your life a mess and find the calm in the eye of the storm. It's not freedom to be enslaved to your life not being a mess. You are very attached to your physical comforts. It's weak, spoiled and entitled. Grounded is the opposite of vulnerable but choose as you wish. I miss you. I love you. XO. A.
Would there -- how do you explain this contrast between the first part of the e-mail and then the "I love you, I miss you, XO"?
MS. PENZA: Why don't you give us each. So first --
MR. AGNIFILO: I object to this question, Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MS. PENZA: What was your understanding at that point?
NICOLE: It was just very confusing. It was, you know, in the same e-mail saying "weak, spoiled, entitled," that, you know, it's the "same pattern as always" and then also saying "I love you and I miss you." I, just -- incredibly mixed messages.
MS. PENZA: Now looking back?
NICOLE: It's just incredibly abusive behavior. I mean, when you're in an abusive relationship, they say they love you and then they hurt you, they say I love you and then they hurt you and there's this cycle you can't get out of.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, objection. I ask that it be stricken.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MS. PENZA: So after that, after that experience, after what happened to you, did you continue to see the defendant?
MS. PENZA: And Allison had said to you that now you had earned the privilege of working more with the defendant, is that right?
NICOLE: Yes, that, like -- I mean, from what I understood, the fact that I had made it through that experience, like, I had passed some kind of test or something and that, that he was interested in, like, working with me more on, like, what I thought, like, acting work or something.
MS. PENZA: How did you feel about that?
NICOLE: Fine. Like, everyone, you know, talked him up so much that I thought, I don't know, maybe this will be good for me and Allison really trusts him and I'm -- again, I don't really have a choice. I'm supposed to trust her. So I think I just thought, I don't know, maybe, maybe this would -- I think I was, I was hopeful that maybe it would be a good thing.
MS. PENZA: Now, do you remember the next walk you took with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Where did you go?
NICOLE: We started on a walk or we might have done the whole walk, I don't remember, but -- because sometimes we would walk, like, a few miles around Clifton Park, but eventually he took me to the library which I had not been to before.
MS. PENZA: And what did that look like?
NICOLE: It was -- I don't know. It didn't look great from the, like, lower half. Like, you walk in and it looks like a construction site is happening but they, like, abandoned it halfway through, like, literally abandoned it because there would still be cabinet doors open which it never made much sense to me why no one just closed them. But, yeah, it was a bit of, like, a -- like, they were trying to do construction work but never finished it downstairs.
MS. PENZA: And did you go upstairs?
NICOLE: And then there was a spiral staircase and, like, a door and you go upstairs and upstairs was a library.
MS. PENZA: And what else was upstairs?
NICOLE: Well, there were a lot of books. And I like libraries. I like books. But so I remember the books being stacked and then there was, like, white boards and a long desk and then there was a hot tub which seemed a little bit odd. There was a bed, a bunk, like, a bed raised above the hot tub which had stairs up to it, like, a ladder. And then there was a bike on the other side, like a stationary bike. There was -- then there was, like, a kind of little closet thing with a few shirts and a table.
MS. PENZA: Were there any -- were there windows?
MS. PENZA: Did the defendant tell you anything about what he used the library for?
NICOLE: I'm not sure if it was that exact conversation or a later conversation, but he said that he had hidden or stayed in there before when he gotten death threats because there was, like, a refrigerator in there as well. It was an area where he could stay safely when he had, like, previously gotten death threats which sounded pretty crazy to me but, obviously, you could. There was a shower and stuff as well.
MS. PENZA: Now, eventually, you would end up spending time at 8 Hale?
MS. PENZA: And we'll talk a little bit more about that later but would there be specific rules about staying at 8 Hale?
NICOLE: Yes. I had to ask permission every time I stayed there and I had to, to not let anyone see me come in and out.
MS. PENZA: Were you allowed to touch anything?
NICOLE: Oh, yeah, I wasn't allowed to touch anything or move anything. Everything had to be left exactly how I found it.
MS. PENZA: Did any -- did you ever move anything?
NICOLE: Yeah. Okay. I moved the curtain when you walked in because I wanted to see if it had a backyard. So I, like, moved the curtain over a little bit and Keith got really freaked out. I don't know if he thought that someone was, like, spying on him or something, but he said, You moved the curtain, right? It was this huge thing that I touched the curtain but I was just looking see if they had a backyard.
MS. PENZA: Now, did you have any further conversation with the defendant while you were at 8 Hale?
NICOLE: Yeah. In that conversation, he told me that actually he was, he had created DOS for The Vow. It was still called The Vow at that point.
MS. PENZA: And what did he say?
NICOLE: That he had created The Vow and that he was Allison's Master which made him my Grandmaster.
MS. PENZA: And what other details did he give you about DOS? Well -- strike that.
Did he tell you whether he had any slaves?
MS. PENZA: Did he say whether he had any other slaves?
NICOLE: Yes. I don't know if it was that exact conversation but eventually, I asked, and he said that he wasn't going to tell me the exact number but it was somewhere between seven and twelve.
MS. PENZA: And did he say anything to you about what had happened with the table?
MS. PENZA: At some point, did the defendant talk to you about whether he could have had sex with you that night?
NICOLE: Yeah. Like, in a walk later, a walk, the next walk we went on, he said that because of, like, the nature of the, like, Master, Grandmaster situation, that he could have commanded me to have sex with him that morning but he didn't because he wanted it to be my, my -- he didn't want me to think that that was all it was about.
MS. PENZA: How did you react when he said that?
NICOLE: I, like, couldn't process that. I, I couldn't -- I wouldn't -- I don't know what was going on but, like, I couldn't hear that, like, what he was saying. So I started talking about -- I started, like, babbling about the guy that I had a crush on which seems, like, a very weird response.
But I -- he said, like, that he hadn't done that because he didn't want me to think that was all it was about. And I said, Oh, you know, this, the guy that I sort of had a crush on at the time, I was talking to him the other day and I told him about how I was supposed to be celibate for three months. And he said, Well, that's okay, like, that's not what this is all about.
And so, like, somehow in my head, my brain, like, compared the two things and I just started -- maybe I just wanted to tell him that I had a crush. I don't know. I just started talking about this, the guy that I had a crush on.
MS. PENZA: From your conversations with the defendant, did you have an understanding of the defendant's, how the defendant's relationship with Allison worked within DOS?
MS. PENZA: Now, did anything -- so on those couple walks that you just described, did anything sexual happen with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: After those walks, did your interactions with the defendant change?
MS. PENZA: Can you just explain generally?
NICOLE: Well, there was another walk where he took me back to the library and we were talking about something else and he, like, asked if he could kiss me.
MS. PENZA: So just before we, before we discuss that, did you -- after you had those conversations with the defendant about him being your Grandmaster, did you discuss that with Allison?
MS. PENZA: And can you describe what those conversations were like?
NICOLE: Yeah. I was, like -- at the time, at that moment when he told me that he was actually Allison's Master, like, so many things made so much more sense to me and there was, like, this part of me that was, in a weird way, like, slight, for a moment, slightly relieved because I thought, oh, thank God, people can stop lying and, like, talking around things to me and, like, someone can be honest, okay, this is what's going on, so we can stop going on these walks where, like, everyone is talking around things and saying "commitment" and "trust" and all these things but, like, someone can finally explain to me what the hell is going on.
So there was a part of me that was, like, I knew it, like, I knew it. And so I was, like, just -- I felt relieved to be, like, putting together some piece of something.
MS. PENZA: And so at that point, did Allison give you instructions on how you were to interact with the defendant?
NICOLE: Well, I got a lot of different instructions on that, but, like, that I was supposed to be very respectful, that I was supposed to make his life easier because that would help everyone. Right? Like, it's this hierarchy. So if I make her life easier, that helps his life. If I make his life easier, that, like, serves this, whatever, higher purpose we were supposed to be serving at the time.
MS. PENZA: Now, did there -- after that point in time, would you ever have conversations with either the defendant or with Allison where it was clear they were talking to each other about you?
MS. PENZA: Go ahead.
NICOLE: Just one that I remember was, like, after the, after the situation in the shack or whatever it was that I was in, when I came up the next time, Allison -- it was obvious that him and Allison had talked about it because Allison said: Isn't it so cool that Keith is working on my sexuality through you? I was, like, Okay.
MS. PENZA: Now, did it -- did you ever observe whether Allison cared about how your interactions with the defendant were going?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll object to the form of the question, Judge.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. PENZA: When you spoke to Allison, would she ask about how things were going with the defendant?
NICOLE: Yeah. After every walk, she wanted me to check in with her, like, how, how did it go, how are you, are you in a good state, were you in a good mood, like, were you in a good state was most of the question --
MS. PENZA: And what did that --
MS. PENZA: What did that mean, were you in a good state?
NICOLE: Was I not angry, was I not acting out, was I not, like, being defiant or throwing a tantrum. Was I not upset because sometimes I would get really upset at the entire situation. But if I -- so, it meant was I in a good mood, was I helpful on the walk, was I nice to him, was I, was I happy while I was on the walk.
MS. PENZA: Did you feel that it was important to your relationship with Allison to make the defendant happy?
MS. PENZA: Can you explain?
MS. PENZA: Yes.
NICOLE: Yeah, because this was, like, the most, like -- her relationship with her Master which was Keith was, like, the most important relationship for her so how, how I related to Keith, like, reflected on her, if that makes sense. So, kind of, if I was helpful and good, then I think she -- I don't know what happened, but it just, like, it -- how I acted reflected on her, so I needed to be well behaved.
(Continued on next page.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PENZA: (Continuing)
MS. PENZA: That was told to you?
MS. PENZA: Now, how long were you in DOS, approximately, after the time when you were on the table?
MS. PENZA: And during that time, can you just explain how -- what your schedule is like over that course of time?
NICOLE: Yeah, so my schedule kind of continues to be similar to what I've already explain, which is I would be working five days a week at the nightclub and then I'd have -- so like usually Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, sometimes like Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, but most of the time Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then I would -- if I had to, I would take the bus on Sunday night and stay Monday and maybe Tuesday, or else if Allison let me, I would like sleep on Sunday night, which was great, and then go up Monday, stay Tuesday, come back Wednesday. I would leave like Albany Wednesday morning, take the train or bus back to New York, try to take a quick little nap and then go to work.
MS. PENZA: During that next year, are you also participating in something called Readiness?
MS. PENZA: Can you just describe the intensity level of Readiness?
NICOLE: Yeah. So, like, Readiness* for DOS is really intense because it could happen at any time and you had to -- basically Allison would text me and I had to respond within sixty seconds and it would be any time day or night. So you couldn't ever leave your phone anywhere. And even, like, going on subways was stressful because what are you supposed to do if you're underground, if, like, Readiness happens when you're underground. And I got in trouble for that more than once.
MS. PENZA: Was there ever a time that something happened that affected your work regarding Readiness?
NICOLE: So I got -- because you can't have your phone on the floor when you're working. I had, like, shorts underneath my dress, which I put my phone in, and then I had an Apple watch so that I could see the message come through on my phone so I could answer it without getting into trouble by either my actual job or Allison.
One day my phone died, so I put it in the office to charge and Readiness happened and Allison called -- called one of my managers, because they made us -- she made me give her the phone numbers. She called one of my managers. They didn't pick up. She called one of my coworkers to call the manager that was working and told him that I had a family emergency and I had to call back.
MS. PENZA: What was that like for you?
NICOLE: I mean, it's just absolutely horrible and it is also so pointless, like why? And -- so then I had to go into the office. I had to answer Readiness, apologize for failing, and then explain to my -- then what do I do? Like, they've just called my managers and said that I have a family emergency, so I just said it's going to be fine, like, I can finish the shift. Like, just unbelievably unnecessary and ridiculous in my opinion.
MS. PENZA: Eventually, and we will talk about this later, did you learn that Allison had other slaves?
MS. PENZA: And at that point in time, did Readiness become more difficult?
NICOLE: Yeah. So, then, once the other slaves were introduced, then there were four of us and we had to all answer within sixty seconds. So you had to not only like yourself answer, but if someone else wasn't answering, like, the clock was ticking, you had to call them or you had to find them or you had to -- so all four of us had to answer within sixty seconds every time that went off.
MS. PENZA: Okay. Now, you had just -- you had started to mention a first kiss with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Approximately when did that happen?
MS. PENZA: Between July and when you left DOS, would there be various sexual encounters with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Can you just give a broad overview of the development of that?
NICOLE: Yeah, I don't remember when it actually started, somewhere around July or August, but I don't have specific memories of when it started, I just know that it did, but I can't remember...I don't actually remember the actual act, like it actually happening. But I remember that it was somewhere around the end of July, beginning of August.
MS. PENZA: And --
MS. PENZA: July, beginning of August, is that a certain type of sex act at that point?
MS. PENZA: And what is that?
MS. PENZA: Eventually, did you have intercourse with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Do you remember, like down the road?
NICOLE: Well, I remember it almost like -- almost happening in August and then I know maybe it just happened, like, throughout the whole time I was there, may be, like, three or four times. I don't know.
MS. PENZA: And other than the three or four times of having in course, were there other times when you would engage in oral sex with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: And during that time, did you have conflicting feelings about the sexual encounters with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: And can you just explain how you felt the sexual encounters with the defendant related to DOS?
NICOLE: Yeah, I think just any time I was feeling really uncomfortable or like wanted to speak out, I was just -- I mean, I was stuck in DOS, right, for the rest of my life, is what I was being told and he was the head of DOS, so you didn't -- I didn't want to -- it just seemed like if there was no -- there would be, like, retribution if I, like, really spoke out. I mean, I tried to. There were several different times that I tried to, but -- I don't know. I just felt like I didn't want to upset him.
MS. PENZA: And, generally, what would happen on the occasions when you would speak out?
NICOLE: Well, it's kind of hard because I was specifically not allowed to talk about my relationship with him to anyone. So -- not even Allison, in terms of like the intimacy or the sexual relationship. So when you're conflicted, or for me, sorry, I didn't have anyone to talk to. I didn't have anyone to, like, bounce things off of or say, hey, I'm not comfortable with this, how do I handle this?
I only had him to turn to, to say, like, I don't really feel comfortable with this or I don't really feel like this comfortable, I think was the word that I used the most, or it feels uncomfortable. Like, I only had him to ask. And, like, what's he going to say back? He's not going to have, like, a discussion with me about whether or not this is good for me. So he always had some kind of reason why it was either good for me, good for like my growth or why -- or how I would learn to -- learn to like it or how it would get less awkward. There was always an answer.
MS. PENZA: This idea of learning to like it, can you explain that a little bit more?
NICOLE: I think it's like learning to -- like I would learn to love him, just like I would learn to love Allison.
We saw the e-mail yesterday where it was referred to as an arranged marriage. So a lot of time there was this concept, so, like, in an arranged marriage, you learn to love the person, you learn to -- so I was supposed to be, like, learning to love Allison and I was supposed to be learning to love him and that it would get better, that as I learned to love him, like, that part of it would get less, like, uncomfortable and less awkward.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, I think this is a good time for a break.
THE COURT: All right. Let's take our morning break. All rise.
(Jury exits the courtroom.)
THE COURT: The witness may stand down. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone. We will take a 10-minute break.
(Recess taken.)
THE COURT: Please bring in the witness.
Let's bring in the jury.
Ms. Penza, through after lunch as well?
MS. PENZA: Maybe a little bit, Your Honor.
(Witness takes the witness stand.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
All right. Ms. Penza, you may continue your examination of the witness. The witness is reminded that she is still under oath.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Nicole, at some point you said you discussed being -- you discussed your discomfort with the sexual aspects of your interactions with the defendant with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Did he ever talk to you about his sexual relationship with Allison?
NICOLE: Yes. At one time he told me that Allison, too, had been a bit uncomfortable in the beginning.
MS. PENZA: Uncomfortable with what?
MS. PENZA: And did you have a conversation about that with Allison as well?
NICOLE: Yes. Later on his -- again, it wasn't really -- I wasn't supposed to talk to Allison about my relationship with Keith, but there was, like, maybe towards the end -- there was a point when I was allowed to tell her something and I asked about that, were you uncomfortable in the beginning, and she said that she was but that she had really trusted the women around her that were telling her it was a good thing.
MS. PENZA: I would like to turn your attention to V Week 2016. At that point, had you had sex with the defendant? Had you had intercourse with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: He wasn't able to?
MS. PENZA: And, so, what happened at V Week 2016?
NICOLE: The last day that I was at V Week, he -- he asked me if I wanted to go on a walk and it was for, like -- when he text me, it was like 4:00, 5:00 in the morning, so I woke up really early to go meet him for a walk and the cabin that he was staying in, like he took me into it, and he took me into like a kids's room. There were like bunk beds. And I was really uncomfortable. And I think he started to kiss me, but he saw that I was very uncomfortable. And, so, he asked me -- he said, well, you can choose, do you want to be intimidate and have sex here or do you want to go on a walk? And I said I wanted to go on a walk.
MS. PENZA: And how did he react?
NICOLE: At first, fine. We went on this long walk where he talked to me about, like, my future and the options that I had for my future and, like, basically I would live an interesting life or I could end up with the white picket fence and, like -- I don't know. He was trying to explain the different lives that I could -- that were available to me or something like that. And then at the end of the walk, he just said that I was disappointed that I chose to go on a walk instead.
MS. PENZA: After that V Week 2016, did you stay in the Albany area?
MS. PENZA: What happened?
MS. PENZA: And did you spend time with your family?
NICOLE: Yes. So, my -- yes. My family, we go boat camping in the summers, which is really fun. So I was -- I flew to Los Angeles and picked up one of my best friends and we drove to my house and we went camping with my family.
MS. PENZA: While you were boat camping, did you initiate a conversation with the defendant about the sexual aspects of your relationship?
NICOLE: Yes, that's correct. So he had asked me to keep in touch with him while I was home. And I had talked a little bit with my best friend. Like, again, I was scared to actually talk about anything because I wasn't supposed to talk about anything but I, like, kind of talked around things. And, you know, it was the first time that I had been able to talk to someone. And, so, I was talking with my girlfriend. We were on a hike. She said something to me. She didn't really -- again, I was talking around things. So I wasn't being straightforward with her. But she just said, like, I don't care, like, how special, like, this guy thinks you are or how much potential he thinks you have or, like, if you're not comfortable, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. And I remember, like, thinking in my head, you don't understand the circumstances, like, it's not that simple.
But it did give me enough coverage to text him and I just said -- and I think just being home and being with my family just made me -- just made it a little bit easier for me to say how I was really feeling. So I texted him and said that it was -- that this was all too overwhelming for me. The whole, like, master, grand master stuff, it was too overwhelming and could we please take the sexual aspect out of it. And if he was just going to be my teacher, just be my teacher, but I couldn't handle, like, thinking about him being my grand master and him trying to have a sexual relationship with me, and I just said it was just too overwhelming and could we just be friends.
MS. PENZA: And how did he respond?
NICOLE: With this, like, long message about how I was a very difficult relationship for him and that I didn't have enough life experience and relating to him in that way was -- that I had been, like, protected, like, all my life, so I didn't have enough life experience, so relating to him that way was like a shortcut to -- like, he was giving me a shortcut to something, and that it was a very difficult relationship with him and normally he didn't start sexual relationships that quickly, but, again, like, because of the circumstances and because I didn't apparently have enough life experience, I couldn't relate to him. I couldn't relate to him as just a friend, like, I had to be sexual.
MS. PENZA: Now, did you later -- over the next year or so, did you have conversations with the defendant where you expressed your unhappiness about the sexual aspect of DOS?
MS. PENZA: Sorry. I will strike the question.
Did you have conversations with the defendant about being unhappy that you were having sex with him?
NICOLE: Yeah. Just, like, that it was awkward and then at one point that I -- that I wanted to date someone.
MS. PENZA: Okay. So would you have conversations with the defendant frequently?
MS. PENZA: And what would your emotional state be during these conversations?
NICOLE: It totally depended. I was very up and down and all over the place. I was obviously, like, always trying to be in a good state and I really did try. But sometimes I would just be so frustrated and I would be in the library by myself and I would, like, quite often be crying or having a meltdown.
MS. PENZA: And would the defendant say things to you on those occasions?
NICOLE: Yes. So if I was, like, having a meltdown when he came to the library and he I wanted -- like, in anticipation of something sexual happening, he would always be, like, looking me in the eye and be like I don't need you, like, I just want you to know that, like, I don't need you, like, I'm choosing you, like, I don't need you, I have plenty of beautiful women that I can have sex with, I don't need you, I need you to understand that, right? Yeah.
MS. PENZA: Would the -- did the defendant ever talk about breaking you?
MS. PENZA: Can you explain that?
NICOLE: One time I think I was, like -- I was just having a talk because I was being defiant about something and he was explaining to me that in the army -- so he was trying to explain obedience to me and he said in the army sometimes they will have you scrub and entire tank with a toothbrush and then when you finish put the tank in the mud, bring it back out and make you do it again. And I remember being, like, well, that doesn't sound like very much fun and also I'm not in the army. This is not the army. So, like, it didn't make sense. And then -- so part of that was also that, like, I needed to be broken. So he needed to break me in order to rebuild me back up into a strong woman but -- yeah, into a strong woman is how he said it. He needed to break me so that he could build me back up into a strong woman, but also so that I, like, understood obedience.
MS. PENZA: Did you feel like you were breaking?
MS. PENZA: Feel like you were breaking.
NICOLE: At times, yes. Like -- it was, like, this battle in my head sometimes between, like, fine, I'll just do what you say and I'm, like, trying to make what's happening mean something, because I was always trying to make it mean something, but then I didn't want to break. First of all, when someone says that to you, it's pretty scary. I want to break you and, like, you have to trust me. Again, it's constantly about trust. So, yes, sometimes I would feel like I was breaking because I was giving in to things. I was, like, okay, I'll trust Allison, I'll trust you. But at the same time, there was another, like, voice in my head being, like, no, like, no.
MS. PENZA: Did the defendant ever talk to you about a one-year commitment?
NICOLE: Yes. So...let's see. Toward maybe November 2016, somewhere around that area, I think I was just -- I don't remember the year things started. I do remember that I had fallen for someone and I told Keith that.
MS. PENZA: So let's talk about that first. So what happened -- do you remember approximately when that was?
NICOLE: That would have been around like... oh, gosh. Sorry. I'm just trying to figure out the dates in my head. It would have been in like February. It was probably when I broke my arm. March 2017, '16. I don't remember. Sorry.
MS. PENZA: March 2016 was when you first joined?
MS. PENZA: So what happened -- so who was it that you -- you don't have to get into his name, but who was it, generally, that you fell for?
NICOLE: Something like a family -- a friend of my family and he worked in the entertainment -- he works in the entertainment industry and they had just like introduced us, like, hey, this is a good person for you to know. We just kind of hit it off. It totally was on accident. And we went to some plays together and -- I don't know. We just got along really well.
MS. PENZA: So were you interested in having a relationship with him?
MS. PENZA: So did you speak to the defendant about that?
MS. PENZA: What happened?
NICOLE: So the -- I guess the year-long commitment had already started because he said that he understood the, like -- he said this a couple times, but he understood the pain that I was in, but that if I had actually been loyal to the one-year commitment thing that I would have never fallen for someone, so, like, I wasn't getting out of it. Basically, he didn't care that I had fallen for someone.
MS. PENZA: Did he -- so then let's talk about this one-year commitment.
MS. PENZA: So how does the one-year commitment compare to -- do you remember just how the one-year commitment idea comes up?
NICOLE: All I remember about it is that I was pushing back a little bit. Like, there were times where I didn't push back on the relationship and I really, like, tried to make things work, but, like, I was really pushing back on things. I didn't want to be in the situation. Not only, like -- I didn't want to be -- yes, I did not want to be in the relationship with him, so I was, like, pushing back on it. I was probably crying. But he said, okay, fine, just give me one year, just trust me for one year and then I will, like, help you find a partner. And I was, like -- but at the time, for me, that was, like, really good news. One year felt like, okay, I can do that. Like, I can get through one year. So that -- if felt like good news to me. So, yeah.
MS. PENZA: Now, you said there were times when you tried to make a relationship with the defendant work. Can you explain that?
NICOLE: Just throughout this whole process, both with Allison and with Keith, it's, like, there are just times when you don't want to fight anymore and when you stop fighting.
It's, like, sometimes I would, like, get into just being okay, if this is my future, then I'm going to try to make the best of it. So I tried to get to know him, and I tried to -- I mean, I was always told to, like, reach out and be supportive to him and stuff. So, like, I really tried, you know. I tried to figure out what his life had been about and who he was and, like, kind of -- I just tried to make the best of the situation and I tried to make it work with him and see if there was, like, something that I could find about him that I, you know, could learn to love.
And then I, you know, tried to push back. But it was like this -- so there were times when I really did. If it is an arranged marriage and it is my future, like, I don't want to suffer for the rest of my life. So, I can -- I learned how pretty well and it's kind of my personality in general, like, I can try to make the best of things and I did.
(Continued on following page.)
BY MS. PENZA (Continuing):
MS. PENZA: So, during some of those time frames that you're talking about, would you exchange more loving messages with the Defendant?
NICOLE: Yeah, like, I don't know if I would call them "loving" so much as, like, kind.
Like, one of the first things he said to me was to make up, like, a name to call him, like kind of like a pet name. But I wasn't very good at that. I wanted all mine to be like in French or something. I think that made it easier.
So, I ended up just settling on calling him "love" because I call a lot of people that. So, yeah, there were text messages that would say, like, Hey, Love, how are you?
Again, like, my job, from what I was told, was to be supportive. So, a lot of the time it was, like, Hey, Love, how are you? How's everything going?
Apparently, his life was very difficult and everyone needed something from him, so I always just, like, checked in.
MS. PENZA: And I just want to clarify, when you had the conversation about the Defendant, about the one-year commitment, did you understand that to be one year regarding sex with him or with DOS?
NICOLE: No, DOS was not an option. That was a lifetime commitment. I was never getting out of that.
So the one-year thing was directed directly at my relationship with Keith.
MS. PENZA: At various points, was there confusion -- did you have any confusion about DOS versus your relationship with Keith?
NICOLE: Yeah, I mean, like, you couldn't really separate them. Like, are you my grand master? Are you my teacher? Are you trying to have a relationship with me? Like, I'm a little bit confused.
MS. PENZA: Now, I think you -- at the point in time when you thought about the one year, is that a time when you were trying to make the best of things?
MS. PENZA: That was an unclear question. I'm going to strike it.
Once this idea of this one-year commitment came into play, at that point in time did you try to make the best of things?
NICOLE: Yes, part of that, yeah, definitely, because I thought, okay, I'm going to do this well. I'm going to stop fighting back so much.
Because it was like one year with Keith and also just to, like, stop fighting Allison so much. It was kind of the same thing, like trust both of them for one year. I mean, the one-year thing was with Keith, but it was like trust both of them, like that was part of the deal, so not to fight back so much.
So, yeah, there were parts of times in that when I really was trying.
MS. PENZA: Now, did the Defendant ever make any comments to you about how your behavior would affect his health?
NICOLE: Yes. Apparently, when -- we were connected, was what he told me. So, when I was upset or crying or throwing a tantrum or fit, is what they called it, but, basically, when I was just crying or unhappy with the situation, that that was exhausting on his body, and there were a lot of things exhausting for him already. So, me being upset was more exhausting on his body and was a problem.
MS. PENZA: Were there times when the Defendant refused to see you because of that?
NICOLE: Yeah, he would -- if I wasn't in a good mood or, like, a high state, then he would refuse to see me or not see me.
MS. PENZA: While you were in DOS and including once you were having sexual encounters with the Defendant, did Allison ever direct you to communicate with the Defendant?
NICOLE: Yes. In the beginning, I had a hard time communicating with him. Well, I just really didn't care to that much, to be honest. So, Allison gave me, like, kind of, You need to message him, like, on the hour every hour. You need to be more communicative with Keith.
She would say things like that, so then I would try to reach out.
MS. PENZA: Did the Defendant ever complain to you about other women?
NICOLE: Yes. He said that, like, other women -- a lot of what he would say is, like, everyone wanted something from him, like, everyone in the community, but, like, needed something from him, so that was exhausting. But, also, like, the other women wanted something from him or, like, needed things from him and -- or they were -- there were jealousy issues or there were, like, issues that he had to, like, punish the women.
There was always, like, women that were being a problem. I think it was his slaves.
MS. PENZA: Did he ever compare you to those other women?
MS. PENZA: So, did he ever compare you to Allison?
NICOLE: Yes. He said that Allison and I were similar in that we didn't -- well, in that Allison was, like, really supportive of him, but I think that we didn't need as much from him.
That's what I got. That's what Allison said to me.
MS. PENZA: Allison said that to you?
MS. PENZA: Would the Defendant ever discuss details of legal issues with you?
MS. PENZA: Did he ever mention Edgar Bronfman to you?
MS. PENZA: In what context?
NICOLE: Well, Edgar Bronfman was Clare Bronfman's father and something about there being an issue with -- well, that Edgar was not a fan of Keith, first and foremost, but that someone that worked for Edgar was, like, out to get Keith or Keith was, like, just randomly in the way so they wanted to take him down. That he had gotten on the wrong side of, like, someone who worked for Edgar and, so, that was a problem.
MS. PENZA: Did he tell you any more details about this person who worked for Edgar?
NICOLE: Just, like, he had some kind of, like, nickname, like the Dark Horse or the Dark Knight or something like that, and he was a really bad person that was just, like, solely money-oriented and just not a good guy. That's generally what I got from him.
MS. PENZA: Did the Defendant ever talk about having private investigators?
NICOLE: Yeah, he said he had an investigator -- that he had hired a private investigator to follow the woman that was the mother of his child.
MS. PENZA: Did the Defendant ever discuss punishing other women with you?
NICOLE: One day he came into the library and he was, like, very exhausted. And I asked if he was okay, and he said he had just come from punishing one of his slaves, like, one of the women. And he just said it was really hard because it was really hard on him because he didn't like to do it but he had to for her sake. But it was a very tricky situation because he needed to punish her but also she, like -- it was, like paddling, but also that she kind of liked it. So, it was, like, this middle ground that he was trying to find between, like, punishing her but also, like, not letting her like it, and it was really exhausting on him because he really hated to, like, hurt anything or anyone.
MS. PENZA: At some point, did you ever express to the Defendant that DOS was causing you financial difficulties?
NICOLE: Yes. One day I had, like, a full-on breakdown because I was really stressed out. And I think he had asked me to stay and, like, miss a shift, and I just kind of, like, lost it because I was really, really -- it was, like, stacking up anger-wise of every trip that I was paying for up and down to Albany, like every bus ticket, every train ticket, and I was, like, really frustrated and angry that I was working so hard for this money and not even spend it.
MS. PENZA: Was it causing you financial difficulty at that point?
MS. PENZA: So, you had this --
NICOLE: And I was doing a show in V-Week and I was going to be missing a week of work. And I was just really stressed out because you work waiting tables and you only make money when you work, so if I'm gone for a week, then I am -- that's not good. So, I was very stressed out about how I was going to pay for -- it was, like, August's rent.
MS. PENZA: And, so, did the Defendant say anything to you?
NICOLE: Well, I was just crying about everything and then I was crying about how I was going to make my life work and I was crying about how DOS was actually going to help me in any way, and I was just like -- it was a pretty bad, like, breakdown.
So, he was trying to calm me down, and then he finally got kind of, like, exasperated and went into a drawer -- we were in the library -- he went into a drawer and pulled out a plastic bag with $10,000 in it and said, like, Here. Will this help?
MS. PENZA: And what did you say?
MS. PENZA: So, what did you think?
NICOLE: I just thought, like, you just pulled a plastic bag out of the drawer with $10,000 in it? It just did not seem like a normal thing to me. So, I was like, What is that?
And he just said it was $10,000. It was, like, in stacks of fifties. And I think I was just -- I, like, didn't want it at first because you kind of think, like, where did that come from? And then he said, you know, If you knew that you had this, if you had this, would it help?
And eventually, I said, Yes.
And then later he gave me, like, a thousand -- not "gave me," he gave me the $10,000 but, like, I was allowed to take out $1,000 for rent.
MS. PENZA: And did you take out money for anything else?
NICOLE: So, then he said that I could use it to pay for the train up and down, which at the time, like, genuinely made me feel better.
MS. PENZA: At some point did you end up using the money for any other reason?
NICOLE: Yeah, so, I used it for the train, which I kept, like, track of every train ride. Like, I'm not sure why, but he asked me to keep track of every train ride that I took or bus, so I kept track of all that on there. I used -- it was $1,000, like, that he gave me for August rent. And then at one point Allison had asked me to do EMs with Dani Padilla, and it was, like, a pack of them for $1,000. Yeah, that was the other thing I paid for.
So, that's it.
MS. PENZA: When did -- how did it come up that Allison asked you to start getting EMs with Dani?
NICOLE: I was probably having a reaction to something or being defiant about something and she said that Dani was really great at EMs and that that might help. And, so, I got Dani's e-mail from her and I started doing a few EMs.
But I think ultimately, his -- later I talked to Keith about it, and he was, like -- because I asked him if I could continue -- if I could use the money for EMs. And he said in the future he would rather that I -- that he and Dani did an exchange, but that he didn't mind doing an exchange for me to take the EMs because they were helping with my relationship to him.
MS. PENZA: Did you know whether Dani Padilla was in DOS?
MS. PENZA: Did you know at the time that you were getting the EMs?
MS. PENZA: And were you able to discuss with Dani Padilla your relationship with the Defendant?
NICOLE: A little bit, but, again, not -- I could discuss it, like, he had chosen me to, like, work with more, but I could not discuss the sexual aspect until right before I left.
I was, again, having a really hard time, and I told him that, like, I just couldn't handle that I couldn't talk to anyone about it. And he had said that I couldn't talk to Allison about, like, about our sexual relationship because she wasn't ready yet and she would get jealous. And, so, finally he said that I could talk to Dani, Dani Padilla, about it. But I never talked to her about it.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I just have the Elmo for the witness, please?
THE COURT: One moment. Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what's marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 652.
Are you familiar with this?
MS. PENZA: Is this the e-mail where Allison provided you with Daniela Padilla's e-mail address and phone number.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 652 in evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 652 is received in evidence.
(Government Exhibit 652 so marked.)
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: And Nicole, is this Allison Mack sending you Daniela Padilla's e-mail address?
MS. PENZA: And her phone number?
MS. PENZA: And this is on February 28, 2017?
MS. PENZA: Do you remember what your feelings were about DOS in late February 2017?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I have it just for the witness again, please?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: I'm showing you what's marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 1377.
Are you familiar with this?
MS. PENZA: And is this a log of the money you were spending going to and from Albany?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 1377 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 1377 is received in evidence.
(Government Exhibit 1377 so marked.)
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: Nicole, can you explain what this document is?
NICOLE: So, that was just me keeping track of what -- I don't know, Keith asked me to keep track of when I took money out of the bag, which I did. So, that was every time I went up and down to Albany and what I -- yeah.
So, the first part is, like, December 19, looks like I took the train. It was $43 New York to Albany, then $43 back Albany to New York. And then the delegate ride is for the person in NXIVM that came to pick me up at the train station and take me to Allison's house.
MS. PENZA: Now, this document, this e-mail, is dated November 27, 2017.
Is that when you created this?
NICOLE: No. If you ever change something on a note, it, like, re-saves it.
So, I don't know, I created it whenever he asked me to start keeping track.
MS. PENZA: Is this a document you would update regularly?
MS. PENZA: So, it's in your e-mail but is it actually a note that was on your phone?
MS. PENZA: And then at the very bottom, it says: August money 2016 and Dani EM money.
MS. PENZA: And then: Total train money.
MS. PENZA: So, are you calculating the total amount of money that you -- what do these three figures represent?
MS. PENZA: Other than the money that you accounted for, did you take any other money out of the bag?
MS. PENZA: Now, did you ever ask the Defendant to allow you to leave DOS?
NICOLE: There was a time where I think I was just talking about how I didn't think that it was the right thing for me and that I -- like, that I wasn't happy -- not that I wasn't happy, it's just I didn't think it was the right situation for me. I didn't think that spending my life, like, answering to somebody else was the right situation for me.
So, we were, like, on a walk, and I was expressing that.
MS. PENZA: And did the Defendant say anything to you?
NICOLE: He told me this -- so, sometimes, like, the way that he would talk would be in stories. So, he told me this story about --
Do you want me to tell the story?
He told me this story about Billy Bud. And Billy Bud is in the Navy and he's great. Everybody likes him and he's a great guy. And there are these, like, other two guys -- I might not have this completely correct, but this is what I remember from it -- there are these other two guys that are, like, always causing problems and always causing trouble and nobody really likes them. And, like, they get into a fight one day and Billy Bud steps in to stop it. And, like in the ruckus he ended up killing a officer. And in the Navy, when you kill an officer, you are -- it's a death sentence.
I don't know if this is true.
MS. PENZA: This is what was being told to you by the Defendant.
NICOLE: Yes, that in the Navy, like, you know, that this is the code of the Navy.
So, everyone really likes Billy Bud, but it doesn't matter because the code of the Navy is that he needs to be hung for what happened. And if they don't hang him, then the Navy can't uphold their code and, so, everything will crumble. So, that's why it's so important for the Navy to uphold this code. And even though they really, really like Billy Bud, it doesn't matter because they have to follow the code. And Billy Bud ends up dying.
And I just -- so, what I got from that was that even if Keith, like, really cared about me, it didn't matter because the code of DOS had to be upheld. And if I left, then my collateral would have to be released; otherwise, the code of DOS would no longer exist and DOS wouldn't exist because if one person can leave and their collateral is not existent, then DOS doesn't exist, the code would break down, and everything would break down.
And, so, I thought that sucks because there's no option of me leaving without, like, the whole thing collapsing or destroying the whole thing.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MS. PENZA: (Continuing)
MS. PENZA: We're going to talk about other -- were there other aspects of DOS that would cause you upset?
MS. PENZA: We'll talk about those in a minute, but did you ever contemplate other ways out of DOS?
NICOLE: Yeah. So I think it was after that conversation, that I was walking around Clifton Park and I was just thinking, like, really logically, if things got really, like, continued to get bad -- because the way that, that everything worked in Albany and in, especially in DOS, it's, like -- the easiest way for me describe it is like a frog in hot water. If you put a frog in boiling hot water, they just jump out, but if you put a frog in cold water and slowly heat it up, they don't quite notice what's happening and they end up boiling to death because they don't feel the temperature rising. So they would, like, normalize a lot of behaviors as you were in and things would, like, slowly intensify and you wouldn't necessarily notice until, like, something happened and you're, like, what the, what the heck, like, this is intense. But they would -- things would be, like, normalized and it's like slowly things would get more and more intense.
So after this conversation, I was just thinking to myself, like, okay, what are my options and if things got really intense, like, not that they weren't intense, but even more, what are your options. So you think, you know, and just what were my options, in general, for life. So it's, like, okay, either, like, I could fully get on board with this and try to make it the best thing that I can possibly make it, I can commit suicide, which is not what I wanted to do but is an option, didn't feel like a very good option because it would hurt my family equally as bad as the collateral being released, like, not really good scenario there, like, didn't want to hurt my mom that way either, but the third thing that I was thinking at the time was I thought what about the witness protection program.
MS. PENZA: And so can you explain what you were actually thinking, like, how that would work?
NICOLE: Well, I don't know that I was thinking incredibly rationally but, nor do I have an incredible large amount of information about the witness protection program, but I thought that maybe if I just disappeared, that they wouldn't have any reason to release my collateral. Right? If I just disappeared, then they wouldn't have to release my collateral and also, DOS wouldn't have to be destroyed. I could just leave. You know, so it's like, like, the Navy, the Navy wouldn't have to be destroyed, like, DOS wouldn't have to be destroyed and my collateral wouldn't have to be released if I just was gone. There would be no reason to release anything.
MS. PENZA: So are you comparing that to the Billy Bud scenario?
MS. PENZA: So can you just play out the very last, last bit of that, what you mean? So, like, in your understanding of Billy Bud from the defendant is that they have to --
MS. PENZA: Billy Bud -- sorry, I just need to finish the question before you answer.
-- they have to hang Billy Bud in order to preserve the code of the Navy?
MS. PENZA: And so how does being in the witness protection program for you preserve the code of DOS?
NICOLE: Because they wouldn't have to release my collateral to prove a point. I would, because I wouldn't -- they would either think I was dead and they would think, or I was gone. Why would you have to prove -- that's what I was thinking at the time, like, that they wouldn't, it wouldn't be necessary.
MS. PENZA: Now, did you receive other assignments as part of DOS?
MS. PENZA: Did one of those assignments involve someone named Robbie Chiappone?
MS. PENZA: How was that assignment first introduced to you?
NICOLE: It was first introduced to me by Allison saying that, like, Keith had this assignment for me and it was really cool and would be even more valuable than, like, an acting job.
MS. PENZA: And what happened next?
NICOLE: Then I went on a walk with Keith and he explained that he wanted me to seduce this boy Robbie.
MS. PENZA: And did he say that specifically?
MS. PENZA: And did he have -- did he tell you what to do?
NICOLE: Well, we talked about it. He told me where, like, Robbie worked out and that they were going to arrange it for me to kind of, like, run into him and, like, start up a conversation and that that -- at first, that that was all I needed to do.
MS. PENZA: And did he explain why you were doing -- just very generally, did he explain why this was being done?
NICOLE: Yes. Well, I, obviously, or I asked why I needed to do that. He said that they needed to keep track of Robbie, that Robbie was, like, used to be part of the community and wasn't part of the community anymore but he had done something, that they, like, needed to keep, they needed to keep track of him or, like, monitor something about him, that he wasn't a good guy so they needed to, to monitor him and they needed to see, like, how he reacted to me.
MS. PENZA: And was there, was there something specific about what Robbie was supposed to do if he met someone?
NICOLE: So he was supposed to report what, who I understood was that he was supposed to report to Lauren Salzman if he, like, met or interacted or was interested in a girl.
MS. PENZA: And all of this, all of this information is coming from the defendant?
MS. PENZA: And so were there, were there additional instructions for what to do next?
MS. PENZA: Well, tell us about the first meeting.
NICOLE: The first meeting? So Keith said to go get, like, pink shorts to wear, which I did not own, for, for, because it was better to, like, look innocent when I ran into Robbie. So they arranged it where, like, Lauren was down, would go on a walk with him down at the, it was, like, the outside of a high school in Albany and there was a track. I was supposed to be running the track and then when he was done speaking to Lauren, he usually starts running and I was supposed to start up a conversation.
MS. PENZA: And did you do this?
MS. PENZA: Did you have -- did you use your own name?
NICOLE: No. So that was part of the assignment, was to be using a different name when I did this. So Keith came up with the name Sam or Samantha or Sam Suite, S-U-I-T-E, and he had me make a Facebook page for her just in case Robbie, like, checked. So, yes.
MS. PENZA: Did he also ask you to create an e-mail address?
NICOLE: Oh, yes, also to create an e-mail address and get an alternate phone number, like a side line, so an alternate phone number to give out, but with the original meeting, I was only supposed to give my e-mail.
MS. PENZA: Had you ever met Robbie before this?
MS. PENZA: Had you ever heard of Robbie before this?
MS. PENZA: Were there any instructions about whether you could speak about NXIVM?
MS. PENZA: So what happened?
NICOLE: So I went on to the track and I was running and kind of like everything unfolded pretty much how they had said. I was nervous but I was running around the track and, like, Lauren was walking with him and then Lauren left and then, like, he started to get ready to train. I did know that he was training for the Navy. Keith told me that.
So he was getting ready to train and I just, like -- I stopped and I said, Hey. I was, like, Sorry, this is really weird, but my phone just died. Can I -- can you tell me what time it is?
MS. PENZA: Did he tell you the time?
MS. PENZA: And did you continue to converse with him?
NICOLE: Yeah. I -- we just, like, talked about something and then I can't remember whether I initiated it or not, but we ended up, like, running around the track a couple of times, like, and just chatting and then just exchanging e-mails and then I won't -- it was very nerve-racking. So I was kind of like, Oh, I've got to go, and I left.
MS. PENZA: What did you think about Robbie's physical appearance?
MS. PENZA: And was he nice?
MS. PENZA: So what happened after that?
NICOLE: He e-mailed me and said, like, Hey, if you want to run next time you're up in Albany, let me know. I love running so I was, like, Sure. It was part of the assignment but I didn't -- that was easier because I genuinely love to run. But Keith just instructed me to, like, continue to talking to him.
MS. PENZA: And when you were -- how was the defendant involved in the back and forth of your communications with Robbie?
NICOLE: Like, he wanted to know everything that happened, exactly what happened, obviously, like, checking with him and Allison afterward.
MS. PENZA: Did you ever tell the defendant that you were nervous about this?
MS. PENZA: Okay. How did the defendant react when you said you were nervous?
MS. PENZA: And so after that, you said you were more nervous for the second time. What was the second time? Sorry. Let me back up for a second.
Did the defendant tell you what the ultimate point of this was?
NICOLE: I don't think yet. It this point, he told me that, like, eventually, I was supposed to hand Robbie off to somebody else. It didn't make sense to me. But as of now, like, as of this point, I was just supposed to, like, get him to like me and, yeah.
MS. PENZA: Were you given instructions about how much physical contact to have with Robbie?
NICOLE: Yeah. I wasn't allowed to kiss him or anything, anything like that. There's no physical contact allowed.
MS. PENZA: So what happened next -- sorry. One question.
In your communications, did the defendant ever tell you what to write to Robbie?
NICOLE: Yes, especially towards the end, maybe at the beginning and the end. Like, especially at the end, it was, word for word, I would pretty much sent what he wrote because it got really weird.
MS. PENZA: Did he ever -- did the defendant ever ask you to say things that were not nice to Robbie?
NICOLE: Yeah. He would always say, like, go to him and, like, try to insult him which I didn't want to do.
MS. PENZA: So what happened -- did you meet again?
NICOLE: Yeah, I ended up meeting him with two of his friends from work. They were just, like, having a drink and I just went in and chatted with them.
MS. PENZA: And how was that?
NICOLE: I was really nervous before and I didn't want to really do it but once I was there, it was fine because it was just having a conversation and his friends were nice.
MS. PENZA: Did you -- at some point, did you figure out who Robbie was in the community?
MS. PENZA: And who did you learn he was related to?
MS. PENZA: Do you know Jim's last name?
MS. PENZA: That's all right.
NICOLE: And then I eventually met or -- and then right around that time, I met his sister Rosie too.
MS. PENZA: How did meeting his family make you feel about this assignment?
MS. PENZA: Why?
NICOLE: Because I liked them, they were all really nice, and I really liked Rosie. And I felt really bad because I was, like, supposed to be lying to her brother and, I don't know, I'm probably really sensitive to that because I love my brother so much, but I felt really bad. I didn't want to be lying to any, like -- I didn't want to be doing that.
MS. PENZA: Did you express that to the defendant?
MS. PENZA: And how did he react?
NICOLE: He told me that he understood how I was feeling and that, that it was, like, really impressive what I was doing. Like, it would be so hard for him to ever lie to someone, he couldn't do it. So what I was doing was really -- it was tough, he knew it was tough, and he said he would never be able to lie to anyone but it was really important and I had to do it.
MS. PENZA: The entire time you're communicating with Robbie, what name are you using?
MS. PENZA: And that's Sam Suite?
MS. PENZA: Did you ever use your true name with Robbie?
MS. PENZA: So at some point, are you told that you don't have to see Robbie any more?
NICOLE: Well, I'm told that I'm not supposed to see him in person but that I still have to, like, communicate with him via, like, text message.
MS. PENZA: And at that point in time, did the frequency of the communications increase?
MS. PENZA: So once you are no longer meeting, once you don't meet Robbie in person anymore, can you just describe what's happening in terms of the communications?
NICOLE: Like, the -- well, like, we met in person one more time and we would, like, text sometimes, like, if there was a specific time that Alex or Keith said I needed to reach out to him and then, then I don't think -- I feel there was a time where I just didn't want, I didn't -- it kind of, like, fell off a little bit or maybe, like, no one was telling me what to do so I was just like leaving it alone. Yes.
MS. PENZA: Did it ever pick up again?
NICOLE: Yes. And then right before he was leaving to go to train or go to the Navy, Allison and Keith got really intense about how it was really important for me to get him to trust me so that I could like hand him off to somebody else.
MS. PENZA: Did this somebody else have a name?
MS. PENZA: Was Mistress Akira a real person? Did you know whether Mistress Akira was a real person?
NICOLE: I thought that, not -- her name was not really Mistress Akira but I was really supposed to tell him to meet this person, that it was a real person.
MS. PENZA: Who did you think this other person was?
NICOLE: I thought it was one of the, one of Keith's slaves. Like, I thought it was one of the people that was above me in DOS. That was the only, like, logical -- well, there was nothing logical about it but, like, that was the only thing I could think of.
MS. PENZA: So how does this all end?
NICOLE: Well, I'm, like, supposed to be communicating with Robbie and, I don't know. To me, it ended in, not, like, a great, a disastrous -- it ended kind of like a disaster, but he's, like -- he had me text, text Robbie to get together so that I can, like, tell him to meet this other woman and I'm kind of like I don't, I don't know how this is going to work. Like, he's not -- he's about to leave for the Navy, he's not interested. And he was super kind in back and forth with the text messages, but he was, like, I'm going to leave for the Navy so it's really not the best time for me to try dating. And I was, like, fair enough.
MS. PENZA: Was it fair enough for the defendant?
NICOLE: No. So then him and Allison just started pushing me, like, harder and, like, writing the text messages, so then I started saying what Keith was really saying. And Allison, Allison was telling me that it was very important that I didn't fail. And at one point, Keith gave me a talking to about how I wasn't -- he was disappointed because, like, I wasn't, when he had first brought it up, I had seemed like more interested and now I wasn't interested in, like, following through on this assignment. But he was, like, pushing very hard and wrote the backstory for Mistress Akira and all of these things. And I just thought it sounded kind of crazy but I didn't know what to do because I didn't want to fail at the assignment and I wasn't allowed to say no so I just kind of, like, sent him these messages and then it ended up, like, not, not working. Basically, he was just not interested. I was, like, I got that. I got that a long time ago but I get it. And then he left.
MS. PENZA: Were you told anything about the fact that you could at least -- was there anything positive about the fact that you had at least stayed in communication with Robbie?
NICOLE: Yes. Like, I mean, Robbie wasn't, like, interested, but we really didn't leave on bad terms. Like, you know, so I still could have texted him, like, while he was at the Army. So what Keith said at least you, like, are holding contact. I was, like, okay.
(Continued on next page.)
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, are we doing 45 -- should we go another 15 minutes now or are we starting -- obviously, it's, whatever --
THE COURT: I think we can start that on Monday. I don't know what the arrangements are for lunch, so why don't we just do the hour today and we will go to the 45 minutes next week.
MS. PENZA: Understood, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right?
MS. PENZA: Yes.
THE COURT: We will take our lunch break.
(Jury exits.)
THE COURT: All right. The witness may stand down.
Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
(Witness steps down.)
THE COURT: Everyone else may be seated.
So about how much longer do you have?
MS. PENZA: About, about an hour, Your Honor.
THE COURT: About an hour.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think I probably will not finish today if she's going to go for another hour.
THE COURT: Well, that's fine. So we will go to 5 o'clock today and I still need to talk to the marshal regarding the time we start on Monday, but I will let you know hopefully after lunch.
MR. AGNIFILO: Very good, Judge.
THE COURT: Okay? All right. Let's take an hour for lunch.
Thank you.
(Luncheon recess.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(In open court; outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: All right. Let's call in the witness, please.
(Witness resumes the stand.)
THE COURT: Please bring in the jury.
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, everyone.
All right. Ms. Penza, you may continue your examination of the witness.
The witness is reminded that she is still under oath.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Continued on next page.)
NICOLE , the witness, having been previously duly sworn, resumed as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Good afternoon, Nicole.
MS. PENZA: May I have the ELMO for just the witness, please.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what has been marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 656.
Are you familiar with this document?
MS. PENZA: And is this an e-mail chain between you and Allison Mack ending on November 21, 2016 in relation to the Robbie Chiappone assignment?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 656 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: We have no objection.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 656 is received in evidence and published to the jury.
(So marked.)
MS. PENZA: Nicole, can you just explain what this e-mail chain represents?
NICOLE: This was -- so this is what Keith had told me to write to Robbie as part of trying to get him to trust me to hand him off to this woman.
MS. PENZA: Okay. So and it's -- so there's an e-mail, there's a portion in the middle, and it says: Okay. This is what KR and I constructed and wrote for the attempt to close the deal.
NICOLE: Yes. So Allison had asked what was going on with Robbie, she wanted an update on the Robbie situation, so I sent her what Keith had just sent me to say to him.
MS. PENZA: Okay. And at this point, had you actually -- is this part at the bottom actually Robbie's, Robbie's response?
MS. PENZA: And then at the bottom, is there a back and forth between you and the defendant?
MS. PENZA: So, we'll start by reading the middle part.
So okay. This is what I, what KR and I constructed and wrote for the attempt to close the deal. What is it that I want? A deep experience of life. Ha. So it's interesting, rad, kind of crazy and totally unresentful, but I worked with this woman in Albany. You know her as my Godmother but her name is Mistress Akira. She has been training me for the past three years. I met her at a seminar she taught in early 2014. She is an international master of many alternative arts, let your imagination run wild, and I was beginning to explore these things at the time so I was down for the adventure. Me, along with a small group of other women, are being trained directly by her. It's FN awesome but intense. When I met you, I thought we had a lot in common, you training for the military, me for wanting to live a badass life. Part of working with her is that I never do anything substantial without her approval. So as I was saying yesterday, if you wanted to risk getting closer, being intimate, which I get you don't want but if you were brave enough or interested enough in risking, I would go to her, ask her if you can contact her, if she agreed you would then reach out to her and she would evaluate whether she approved of you or not, hence, where the personal strength and desire to grow I mentioned comes in.
Gorgeous, our age-ish, late 20s and amazing. So being evaluated by her is not all bad. She also -- there's a little devil emoji. She also has a number of other slaves. So -- dot, dot, dot. To me, you seemed mature, intelligent and driven enough to handle speaking with Akira or at least to handle me sharing this part of my life with you. Not every guy is. It seems a rare event, but after your latest messages, I'm not so sure. It seems like this kind of personal growth and unconventional challenge might not be your sort of thing, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe adventure, challenges and life experience is what you're looking for. That and a delicious treat to take with you to boot camp. A winking face. It says: XX, Sam.
Is that for your Sam Suite persona?
MS. PENZA: How much of this was drafted by the defendant?
NICOLE: The majority of it. I think I just kind of added certain words. Like, I mean, I added the little face with the sunglasses and maybe, like, a couple words that made it sound like it was more from my own voice but the, the majority of that he sent me to repeat.
MS. PENZA: And then this is Robbie's response.
Hey, I read what you sent. I spent most of my day thinking about it and evaluating. Firstly, I appreciate your honesty. I feel that it's difficult to share something like that with another. If you are looking for something to experience what you described to me, I am not that person right now. Perhaps, however, with time, and after I have secured myself in my training in approximately six months from now, I may be open to relating to you more.
I am leaving very soon and my focus is on building discipline within myself and spending time with my family and those I love before I go. I admire your persistence, but my heart is aimed toward the military and the many months to come of pain and challenge.
And then you write: These are my thoughts that I just sent to KR.
Me: As I look over his last e-mail, I think he's scared.
THE COURT: Can you move a little more slowly?
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor. I'm sorry.
MS. PENZA: Me: I think the military is a pain and challenge that he can categorize and therefore thinks he can handle. I think the challenge I presented is out of his comfort zone and so he's hiding behind what he knows and where he feels comfortable. He even says after I secured myself in training.
Then it goes on and then there's something from KR. Who is KR there?
MS. PENZA: I agree. Can you push on that to goad him?
Right?
MS. PENZA: And then you write: Yep. I just have to think how best to do that. I think it needs to be a light and simple response. And then you continue on.
And then -- so you send all of this to Allison. Is that right?
MS. PENZA: And she writes: Dude, so crazy/cool. What are you thinking. Question mark. Question mark. Maybe tempting him with a final hoorah of something sure to be delicious before being sequestered with a bunch of men for half a year. Something for him to take with him and hold onto until he gets back. Plus, if he starts now who knows what will be waiting for him on the other end of the six months.
Was this one of the last exchanges about Mistress Akira?
NICOLE: Yes. There might have been one more but I think that was, like, the last one or one of the last ones.
MS. PENZA: All right. So I want to -- we mentioned this very briefly in passing but at some point, did you learn that Allison had other slaves?
MS. PENZA: What did you learn or how did you first learn that?
NICOLE: Well, another, like, woman around my age or a couple years younger than me started hanging around the house a lot, Allison's house, and there was, like, at one specific instance -- because I knew she was part of the, the community. But there was one instance where, like, she had done something wrong and so she was, like, having to fly back and forth between Los Angeles and California. She was from Los Angeles. And that was kind of when I first suspected at least that she might be because she was, like, having to do all these things that didn't seem really necessary or logical and it was because she had, like, done something wrong.
MS. PENZA: When she was doing this -- when India was doing the back and forth flying, was she expressing to you that this was -- what was she saying to you?
NICOLE: Well, she was just a little bit stressed out about having to fly back and forth but also the tickets were, like, 500 one way and then the other. So this was a lot of money and she was stressed out about the money, but also seemed to me to be resigned to the fact that she had, had to do it and that whatever her mistake India had made, that she had to pay for these tickets back and forth to fix it and whatnot.
MS. PENZA: At some point, was it confirmed that India was one of Allison's slaves?
NICOLE: Yeah. Yes, maybe, like, a month, maybe, like, three weeks or a little while later, she was allowed to tell me that she was also one of Allison's slaves and she -- and we were at my house in Brooklyn.
MS. PENZA: And how was it -- how did you feel when you learned that she was one of Allison's slaves?
NICOLE: A lot of different things. One, it was that kind of, a similar feeling of, like, I knew it, because you kind of did know and so it's just nice to be confirmed that what you thought was going on was really actually going on because a lot of the time, they didn't confirm that kind of stuff. But so I, so I was, like, I knew it, and then I also was a little bit relieved because I wasn't all alone anymore.
MS. PENZA: Did you become friendly with India?
NICOLE: Yeah, I did. We, we became really close and she, she was super helpful for me because, A, she made me feel not so alone and, B, she was really good at, like, talking me off the ledge. So if I was like going into one of my, like, moods or, like, getting very upset and worked up and getting upset about this situation and what I was stuck in, she would, like, she was very good at calming me down.
(Continued on next page.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continuing) BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Did you ever feel that your relationship, your closeness with India was ever used against you?
MS. PENZA: Can you just explain?
NICOLE: Yeah. Yes. So, I think the first time -- Allison told me that the first time that -- that -- when I sent the message about me not wanting Allison to have to take a cold shower, one thing that they learned about me was that I cared, was that I cared what happened to other people. So, when India and I became close, they used her to help me behave. So, like, if I -- so it was, like, if I didn't do something, then it would be -- it would make things harder on India. Or if I didn't do something -- or if I, like, threw a fit, then like both India and I would have to take a cold shower. So it wasn't just me, it was also India, or her calories for the day would be cut, or they -- they would use things like that because they -- I say they, but Allison and -- mostly Allison would do this, because I wouldn't do it. I mean, I wouldn't cause problems.
MS. PENZA: You mentioned calories. Was calories a focus in DOS?
NICOLE: Yes. It was presented -- at least to me, it was presented as a discipline exercise. So, you limit the calories that you can eat during the day and you, like, have to be very specific about it; you have to measure things, you have to weigh things, everything has to be, like, perfectly calculated. The way it was presented to me was it's a form of discipline and if you, like, go over your calories or you don't measure them correctly, then, like, you are lazy or you are indulgent or you are sloppy. And I wanted to be -- and like, it was...not organized, because that's not the right word, but, like, that meant you could -- you learned how to be disciplined and I really I wanted to be disciplined. But that was a huge -- calories was a huge part of DOS.
MS. PENZA: Fair to say that you are typically very thin?
MS. PENZA: Within DOS, was your weight an issue?
MS. PENZA: How about for India?
NICOLE: Yes. So India, they were trying -- Allison was having her try and get down to a certain weight. I think, if I remember correctly, it was like 107, and it became clear at one point that, like, India didn't need -- she didn't need to get down to that weight and her and I had a conversation about it. She had already lost some weight, and -- first of all, she looked good whatever weight she's at, but I was like you're good here, but Allison said that she needed to get down to 107 because she had picked -- like, set her word to that, so she had to keep -- she had to be on 500 calories a day until she got down to 107.
It was -- it was just really hard to watch sometimes, because, you know, she would get really tired. You could just tell, like, she was just all over the place and hungry, and she was -- India's a really good cook, so she learned how to, like, make foods that had, like, very low calories and stuff. But it was just -- it was tough, it was tough on her.
MS. PENZA: How long was she on a 500-calorie a day diet?
MS. PENZA: Was Allison Mack also restricting her calories?
MS. PENZA: And do you remember what her calories were?
MS. PENZA: Did she tell you she had a weight that she was supposed to be at?
NICOLE: She is always trying to be like around 102, 103, and I do remember her telling me once that she -- she said sometimes she felt like Keith wouldn't care about her if she gained weight, and she knew that that wasn't true, but that's how it felt. And I just remember, like, noting that.
MS. PENZA: Did you ever meet any other women who were Allison's slaves?
MS. PENZA: And is that Michelle and Danielle?
MS. PENZA: What happened once you were aware of the four of you, the four slaves under Allison?
NICOLE: Things really intensified once there was like just four of us. Like, on one hand, it felt a little bit better because you weren't alone and you kind of, like, had this group and you were, like, oh, there is actually other women, because for a while you were like -- or I was like, again, just another thing added to the list. You're like this was supposed to be a women's empowerment and I'm all alone. You know. So once I met four other people, it was like, okay, now I'm not completely alone, so maybe we can all make this into something that's better. But then, at the same time, it got really intense. Readiness got really intense. We had to meet like weekly, all together; it was all four slaves with Allison. And then, eventually, Allison started asking for more collateral. It just got a lot more intense and I had to be in contact -- not only was I in contact with Allison now, but I was also, like, needing to, like, bond with the other girls. It was just a lot of people to, like, communicate with and a lot of people to do readiness with and -- yeah.
MS. PENZA: So let's talk about the different things you mentioned.
So you began meeting together with --
MS. PENZA: -- with the other slaves, and can you describe what these meetings would be like?
NICOLE: So they started out a little more casual, but then they became -- at one point they started calling it church, but we would meet like Monday evenings, because that was the -- usually, I could -- the day that I came up was Mondays. They all lived in Albany, I lived in New York City. So we would meet Monday nights, and the four of us would sit on the floor and Allison would sit on a chair or an the couch, and we would talk about the week and, like, where we failed and what we were trying to work on for the next week.
MS. PENZA: Was something else introduced as part of these group meetings?
MS. PENZA: What was that?
MS. PENZA: What did that mean?
NICOLE: Which was, whenever we all got together, we all had to take off our clothes and take a picture, altogether, and eventually I found out that the pictures were being sent to Keith afterward.
MS. PENZA: How did you find that out?
NICOLE: A couple -- two different times or ways. Once, like, Allison slipped -- like, Allison had slipped up. Then another time she said -- it must have been after she slipped up and she knew we knew, she said that Keith could tell -- we were supposed to look happy in the pictures, and he could tell our...he could tell our state of mind by how our faces looked in the pictures.
And the third thing is, I saw her send -- after one of the times that we had to do this, I saw her send -- send the picture and Keith responded: All mine, question mark, with a like devil face.
MS. PENZA: How did you know that message was from the defendant?
NICOLE: Allison had Keith's name under another name in her phone, which I'm blanking on right now, but -- and I just saw that.
MS. PENZA: And were you familiar with the devil emoji?
MS. PENZA: Is that something that the defendant would --
MS. PENZA: You said she slipped up at one point?
NICOLE: I think the first time, I feel like she slipped up. I don't think she offered that information the first time.
MS. PENZA: How did you feel when this family photo project started?
MS. PENZA: Did you tell Allison that?
MS. PENZA: And how would she react?
NICOLE: It depended on, like, how she was feeling that day, whether she would tell me that, like, either I didn't have a choice; so I could once again hold up everyone else and make things more difficult on everyone else; or I could just do it like I had to; or I was the actress, so why was I the one that was being shy about my body. Just whatever the stupid reason was that I had to do it.
MS. PENZA: Looking back, what do you think the effect was of having to take these naked family photos?
NICOLE: Well, it made you feel really unsafe because, A, you didn't really want to be together with all the girls, because any time you were together with all the girls that could happen, and it didn't -- it didn't matter where we were. She could tell us to do that at any point and we had to, and it just...it feels really horrible to not, like, be able to say no to that, like, sometimes it felt like the very worst -- like one of the worst parts of everything happening because you have no control when you were just told you have to take off your clothes.
MS. PENZA: Given that at certain points in time, when you were taking the family photos, you were also having sexual encounters with the defendant, why did it matter to you that they were being sent to the defendant?
NICOLE: Well, that was what I -- like argued about most, was that, like, this was supposed to be a women's empowerment organization, how is it empowering to make us take off our clothes and send photos to a man, and I would just ask Allison, like explain to me how that is empowering, because to me it feels completely degrading.
MS. PENZA: And how would she respond?
NICOLE: I don't even remember. With, like, the same -- it doesn't matter; you don't have to know, like, the reasons behind all -- like what we know about it helps your growth, and like it just didn't matter how I felt.
MS. PENZA: You mentioned that readiness also intensified after you learned about the other slaves under Allison?
NICOLE: Yes. Yes, because...sorry. Because there was four of us now and all four of us had to respond within sixty seconds, so it just became a lot more confusing, or not -- well, yes, confusing, but also just more difficult because you had to know where all four people were, and if you couldn't get in touch with someone, you had to call someone. We were responsible for all four of us, so readiness became not just about me not being on top of it, but also me having and all the other girls having to make sure each other were on top of it and that we all responded within sixty seconds. And if not, then we all failed together and we all had to do whatever the punishment was together. So, it was just a lot.
MS. PENZA: Now, I think you mentioned that at some point the idea of giving additional collateral was introduced?
MS. PENZA: Do you remember when that happened?
NICOLE: I don't remember the exact time, but it was sometime once the four of us had met, so, I would say maybe by like October of 2016, around then, October, November.
MS. PENZA: How did you feel when the concept of additional collateral was brought up?
MS. PENZA: Why?
NICOLE: Because we weren't given a choice in the matter. It was demanded that we put more -- that we turn in more collateral by like the first of the month. I just -- I hated it. I -- it made me so angry because I just felt like I was getting, like, more and more and more trapped, you know. It's like -- like, if you saw like a little light somewhere, then it is like you put a boulder on top of that. It just felt like getting more and more and more trapped, and also it's really uncomfortable. Like it was worse -- like it was bad enough the first time. God, I hate it, I hated it.
MS. PENZA: Did you always provide the additional collateral?
MS. PENZA: And when you say you had to, why? Why did you feel you had to?
NICOLE: Well, if we didn't obey, then the first collateral would be released, so, like, to me it felt like there's just no option. And also, everyone -- if we didn't all turn it in on time, then, like, there would be punishment set up, but like, ultimately, you had to.
MS. PENZA: And when the idea of monthly collateral was introduced, how were you supposed to transmit the monthly collateral?
MS. PENZA: And did you do that every month?
MS. PENZA: And what happened that one month?
NICOLE: Allison had presented us with a contract that was basically like signing our lives away, which was terrifying, but it was basically saying we would never say anything negative about what was happening; that we agreed to everything that was happening to us; that if we ever spoke out or said anything we would, like, pay them a million dollars. I don't remember all the language, but I just remember, like, looking at it and being, like, oh, my God, like, what am I going to do? Because it just, again, like the more collateral, it's just more and more on you, like this is really never going to end. This is really never going to end. And it was kind of confusing, because I remember all of us were having trouble, like, understanding what was being said in it. So Allison was supposed to set up a meeting for us to, like, go over the contract before we had to sign it, and she ended up booking a role and going to San Diego to do this play and somehow, in the mix of that, it slipped through the cracks. And I was just beyond grateful that somehow it slipped through the cracks, so I just never said anything and just the next month I turned in my collateral -- because it -- sorry, that was supposed to be the lead collateral for that month. Like she said, okay, since you have this contract, you don't have to make collateral for this month and then somehow, like, just -- I don't know, by shear luck something just happened and it slipped through the cracks. Yeah.
MS. PENZA: Do you remember what month that was?
NICOLE: Well, it must have been right around when she booked it, so I would say it was either March or April's collateral. That would be my guess, but I don't remember.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MS. PENZA: May I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what are marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 1367, 1368, 660, 661, 662 and 663.
Are you familiar with those documents?
MS. PENZA: And what's marked as Government Exhibit 1367, is that an e-mail from Allison Mack to you?
MS. PENZA: And Government Exhibit 1368, is that an e-mail from you to Allison Mack?
MS. PENZA: And Government Exhibits GX-660, GX-661, GX-662, and GX-663, are those pieces of collateral that you uploaded?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 1367, 1368, 660, 661, 662 and 663 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: I have no objection.
THE COURT: Government Exhibits 1367, 1368, 660, 661, 662, 663 are all admitted into evidence.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Government's Exhibits 1367, 1368, 660, 661, 662, 663 received in evidence.)
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1367.
And is this an e-mail from Allison Mack to you, inviting you to edit a Dropbox -- a folder on Dropbox labeled collateral?
MS. PENZA: And is this where you would upload collateral?
MS. PENZA: So, by November 23, 2016, was monthly collateral introduced?
MS. PENZA: I'm showing you what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1368.
Are you familiar with this document?
MS. PENZA: And is this laying out your collateral as of November 25, 2016?
MS. PENZA: Can you just explain kind of -- can you explain were you answering questions here?
NICOLE: So, Allison wanted, like, a list of all of the collateral we had given to that point and, like, who it damaged and how damaging it was, and we had to turn this in by a certain amount of -- like, a certain hour.
MS. PENZA: And, so, that's what you were doing here?
MS. PENZA: Now, for your monthly collateral, what types of things would you upload?
NICOLE: So, I did not want to bring my family into anything again, so I tried to figure out any way that either just affected me or -- basically so it just affected me. So I gave them like my credit card numbers; Allison said that was, like, sufficient, if we gave -- India and I both did this -- our credit cards, with a signature saying that she was authorized to use that card. I think I had to tell her how much credit I had on the credit card and -- yeah, and, like, give the number and, like, access to my -- I just did -- yeah, all the credit cards that I had.
MS. PENZA: At some point did you also give her jewelry?
NICOLE: Yeah. I wrote a letter saying, as one of my collaterals, saying that if I broke my word that -- I don't have it on today, but I have my grandmother's wedding ring from 19 -- 1938, I believe it was when she got married, and it's a really beautiful wedding ring. And I said that -- I gave that over as a piece of collateral, if I did anything wrong. Allison said I could keep it, as long as I like behaved. But that was one of the pieces.
(Continued on following page.)
BY MS. PENZA (Continuing):
MS. PENZA: I'm showing you Government Exhibits 662, 663, 660 and 661.
Are these all examples of the credit card authorizations that you described?
MS. PENZA: So, we'll just look at one of them, Government Exhibit 662: As of December 18, 2016, I hereby give Allison Mack permission to use and charge my Virgin America visa. I take full responsibility for any and all charges.
Did you actually provide her the information to use the account?
MS. PENZA: What's redacted here is the information that would be used to use the account?
MS. PENZA: Here's another example.
Turning your attention to October 2016, did you end up going on a trip with Allison Mack?
MS. PENZA: Can you explain?
NICOLE: It was Michele's birthday, and her family had a home in the Berkshires. And, so, we all, all four of us -- five of us, Danielle, India, Allison, Michele and I, all drove out to the house in the Berkshires for the weekend.
MS. PENZA: And how was the trip?
NICOLE: Per many things that happened, like, a mix of emotions. It was supposed to be, like, a bonding trip, and some of it was nice. We went on a hike, which is always nice to get out of the city, and we kind of explored one of the small towns, like, outside the Berkshires, and we made dinner together. So that part was, like -- felt okay. It felt, like, kind of like bonding, and those were moments that weren't as bad.
But then, also...
MS. PENZA: Did something happen after dinner?
NICOLE: Yeah. It had been, like, a really nice day, actually, and then after dinner, Allison was, like, As much as I would like this to be just a bonding trip, it's not.
Oh, gosh, like, what's coming?
And she said, I have another assignment for you guys. I am going to take a close-up photo of all of your pussies, is what she said.
MS. PENZA: How did you feel when she said that?
MS. PENZA: Did you say no?
NICOLE: Yeah. Like, absolutely not, is how I felt. And I -- no.
And I don't remember what her actual, like, response was, but it was a back-and-forth that I lost. Because then I was, like, I couldn't behave like that, I couldn't defy her like that, so it was like, No, you're doing this.
We had just finished the family photo, so I already had to go through the family photo situation. We put back on our clothes and she told us this. And I was just, like, you've got to be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me.
And, so, took off all our clothes again and stood in a line. And Danielle, I think, went first...
MS. PENZA: As each person goes -- so, you and the other three women are standing in a line?
MS. PENZA: And where is the actual photo being taken?
NICOLE: On the couch.
Like, so, you had to sit on the couch, spread your legs, and Allison was standing right there with, like, her camera phone, and she would take a picture.
MS. PENZA: And was it, in fact, a very close-up picture?
MS. PENZA: It was focused on your vagina?
MS. PENZA: So, it's a line of the four of you.
Danielle goes first?
MS. PENZA: Okay.
MS. PENZA: And what happened when you went?
Did she say anything to you?
MS. PENZA: What did she say when Michele went?
NICOLE: She said -- like, she looked at the photo and just kind of said, Beautiful cunt.
And I was just like, God, what? I just was grossed out. And, yeah, and I just waited for my turn and I was, like, really angry. Really angry.
MS. PENZA: And the picture was taken of you?
MS. PENZA: And what happened afterwards?
NICOLE: She made some comment like, See? That wasn't so bad.
And I was just like -- I just remember my jaw being, like, set because I was so angry and I was, like, trying to just, like, swallow my words. So, I just stopped speaking. I refused to speak.
And she made us sit down and, like, talk about -- I don't remember if it was, like, how we felt or how we felt while that was -- something about how we felt or -- and I wouldn't speak. And then she's just like, Oh, are you still -- like, are you still throwing a fit over there?
And then she said, You have to answer me.
Because I -- I don't know, the only way I could think of, like, getting some kind of power back, which is not speaking to her, and then she made me answer whatever stupid question she had asked me. I just remember being really angry and, also, like, really unnerved because I'm, like, I know these pictures, like, are being sent to Keith, and that just -- I don't know, makes me, like, grossed out and disgusted and -- I don't know, I was very unhappy.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I just have the Elmo for the witness, please?
THE COURT: All right.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what's marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 653. I'm going to show you the three pages of this document.
Are you familiar with this e-mail?
MS. PENZA: And this is an e-mail from Allison Mack to you, Michele, India, and Danielle?
MS. PENZA: I know, it lost focus.
Can you see it now?
MS. PENZA: Is it, in fact, to you, Michele, India, and Danielle?
MS. PENZA: And do you remember whether this e-mail was sent around the time of the trip?
MS. PENZA: And Allison says: The past three days were profound for me.
THE COURT: I'm sorry.
MS. PENZA: I'm so sorry, your Honor. The Government offers Government Exhibit 653 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
MS. PENZA: Apologies.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 653 is received in evidence.
(Government Exhibit 653 so marked.)
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: Sorry, Nicole.
Can you see the e-mail now?
MS. PENZA: Well, I guess you could see it the whole time, but now everyone can see it.
It starts by saying: The past three days were profound for me.
MS. PENZA: I understood what it meant to be responsible. I understood what it meant to be vulnerable. I met you for what felt like the first time and I understood me because I understand you.
MS. PENZA: Now here, Allison writes: We will do our practices until our next church service.
Is that what you were referring to before?
MS. PENZA: So, a church service would be the types of meetings -- those meetings that you would do as a group?
MS. PENZA: And then she writes: I spoke to my M today.
What does that mean, "my M"?
MS. PENZA: So, who is that?
MS. PENZA: And it says: And he helped me to clarify the diet, calorie, and weight thing. I told him I felt conflicted about a few things, this being one of them. He helped me see there is a difference in what I was evaluating. There is the word which is being upheld through discipline and commitment, then there are the emotional states and visceral pulls which are also in need of work.
MS. PENZA: And then it says on the next page: He helped me see upholding a discipline for a principle is very different than just eating.
MS. PENZA: So, this week I would like each of you to split your commitment into PET --
Do you know what that stands for?
MS. PENZA: -- and analyze your emotional and thought component of your physical practice of abstinence. Do this and tell me what you decide. If we fail in any of the three realms, we each take on 50 fewer calories the following day. Please have your commitment for the week written and submitted before the end of the day tomorrow.
So, down here, there's a number of -- there's a number of what I think appear to be nicknames.
MS. PENZA: Are they, in fact, nicknames?
MS. PENZA: Who is The Princess?
MS. PENZA: And who is M?
MS. PENZA: Who is The Clown?
MS. PENZA: Who is The Brawn?
MS. PENZA: And who is The Brat?
MS. PENZA: So, for The Princess, it says: 500 calories. No food past 5 p.m. unless permission granted by M.
Is that right?
MS. PENZA: And for Allison, she writes: 600 calories. No food past 5 p.m. unless permission granted by my M.
Would that be Keith, the Defendant?
MS. PENZA: And then it says: Star, star, My M reminded me today that I had given my word I would remain under 600 calories as a discipline until I reached 106 pounds. I got prideful and conveniently forgot this commitment because it didn't suit me in the moment.
MS. PENZA: Was this type of language about specific goal weights and calories common?
MS. PENZA: Now, as part of DOS, did you ever have to do any formal work?
MS. PENZA: Can you explain?
NICOLE: So, the first -- there were a few different things, but, like, the first thing we had to do was to, like, read and review all of these different essays.
MS. PENZA: Who had written the essays?
MS. PENZA: And what were you told was the point of reviewing the essays?
NICOLE: So, I think there were, like, fifty essays or something, but we had to read and review all of them. And there was, like, a questionnaire to answer about, like, how well he had communicated something or how well -- like, what the topic was about, or -- all these questions asking, like, how well we understood the essay. And my understanding was that, eventually, that they would be, like, edited and published.
MS. PENZA: So, you were reviewing them for this editing process?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what are marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibits 1358, 1359, 1360, 1362, and 1364. Please take a look at them.
You can just flip through it.
MS. PENZA: And are these all e-mails related to these articles that you were talking about?
MS. PENZA: And they're e-mails between you and Allison?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibits 1358, 1359, 1360, 1362, and 1364 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sure it will be fine if I can get a copy of them quickly.
THE COURT: That's fine.
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, I didn't realize Mr. Agnifilo didn't have them.
THE COURT: Why don't you...
MR. AGNIFILO: We have no objection, Judge.
THE COURT: Government Exhibits 1358, 1359, 1360, 1362, and 1364 are received in evidence.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, your Honor.
(Government Exhibits 1358, 1359, 1360, 1362, and 1364 so marked.)
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I'm showing you what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1358.
And is this from Allison, to you, on July 20, 2016?
MS. PENZA: And the subject line is: Articles.
MS. PENZA: And it says: Here is the link to the rating document.
What is the rating document?
NICOLE: So, after we finished reading each article, there was, like, a whole list of questions that we had to answer. It was a couple pages -- I don't remember how many pages, but quite a few questions about, like, again, did we -- did you like the article? Rate it from one to five. Did it -- was it communicated properly? But there was a ton of different questions, like could it have been better this way? Did you get the idea across? Could anyone understand it? What type of person could understand it? And just a lot of different questions.
MS. PENZA: And, so, was this a link to that actual document?
MS. PENZA: And then it says: I have invited you to the Dropbox file. Let me know if you didn't receive it.
Do you remember whether any of these articles were provided to you via Dropbox?
MS. PENZA: And then it says: Check in with me daily on which articles you read that day so I can keep track.
MS. PENZA: So, were there -- would you continually report to Allison on the progress on the articles that you were reviewing?
MS. PENZA: Were there ever deadlines?
NICOLE: Yes, there was a deadline at one point that it needed to be done in, like, the next couple weeks.
That was a lot of articles, too.
MS. PENZA: Do you remember approximately how many?
MS. PENZA: And how long would it take you to review and read each article?
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: I'm showing you what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1359.
This is from Allison, to you, on July 24, 2016?
MS. PENZA: It says: Please delete. Hey, Love, I just sent you a new link to the articles for KR. Can you please delete the old article folder? Thanks.
MS. PENZA: Do you remember what that was about?
NICOLE: Yes, I don't remember why it was necessary but, yes, she re-uploaded the articles and deleted the other folder and we just had to open the new one.
MS. PENZA: Government Exhibit 1360.
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: From Allison, to you, on July 26, 2016: Hey, Love, just a heads-up that you have until August 15, 2016, to read, rank, and rate all the articles. If you have been reading the two a day that was suggested, you will finish no problem. If you haven't, you may want to pick up the pace.
MS. PENZA: That was the deadline for the articles?
NICOLE: Yeah.
Also, like, two articles a day would have been, like, three to six hours, so, no I was not doing two articles a day. So, I was like shoot, you know, like, what would I -- what do I do?
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: Is this a list of some of the articles?
This is an e-mail from Allison, to you, on August 9, 2016.
MS. PENZA: Did this continue over time, this process of reviewing articles?
NICOLE: So, that had to be done by August 15. And I tried to ask for a deadline because, obviously, I was working and everything else. She got really angry at me and said it had to be done by August 15 and I was -- whatever, a baby and complaining, yada, yada, yada. But, anyway, I got them done. I would get up super early and would go to a coffee shop and try to, like, get through all of them, and I got them done by August 15.
But after that, like, once we were all together, like, once I met the other four girls, we would bring -- Allison would bring an article to, like -- we were supposed to read an article that week and then bring it to, like, church or whatever that Monday meeting was.
MS. PENZA: So, I'm showing you what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1364.
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: This is an e-mail from Allison, to you and to India, on September 5, 2016, and it's attaching an article.
MS. PENZA: Is that what you were just describing?
MS. PENZA: And attached is an article, and it's an article that was, to your understanding, written by the Defendant?
MS. PENZA: So, you talked about the articles.
Were there other types of work that you performed?
NICOLE: Eventually -- I mean, we would do little things for Allison all the time. But another, like, work thing similar to that was before Pam's memorial, they needed a bunch of tapes transcribed, and it was tasked to us to transcribe it, me, India -- I think there were possibly more people involved that I didn't know about but me, India, Danielle, Michele.
MS. PENZA: Do you know whether anyone -- this was for Pam Cafritz's memorial service?
MS. PENZA: Do you know whether anyone was paid for work related to Pam Cafritz's memorial service?
MS. PENZA: Do you mean of your --
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I have one moment with Mr. Agnifilo?
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, your Honor.
(Pause in proceedings.)
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: On consent of the defense, the Government offers Government Exhibit 658 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: We do consent.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 658 is received in evidence.
(Government Exhibit 658 so marked.)
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: Is this document a forwarded message that you sent to India that says: Pam unplugged. Word file.
MS. PENZA: And is it forwarded by India to Sylvie and Souki?
MS. PENZA: Do you know Sylvie and Souki?
MS. PENZA: Did you know that this was forwarded to them?
MS. PENZA: Okay. And it says: Forward. Pam Unplugged. Word file.
MS. PENZA: Can you just explain what this document is?
This was the Pam Unplugged attachment.
NICOLE: Yeah. So, there were these -- there were these tapes or, like, recordings that we were supposed to type out what the recordings said.
MS. PENZA: Do you remember how long it took you to do that transcription?
MS. PENZA: And when were you -- was there a rush to get this done?
NICOLE: Yeah, it was -- everything was very last minute or needed to be rushed.
So, I was at work, and I think I was working just an early shift that day, and they said it needed to be done by the next morning at, like, five in the morning.
MS. PENZA: Who is "they"?
NICOLE: Sorry, Allison.
So, I stayed up all night doing it. And I had been at work and -- I don't remember the exact circumstances, but I stayed up for 23 hours straight in order to finish this.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MS. PENZA: (Continuing)
MS. PENZA: Were you paid for this, were you paid for this transcription?
MS. PENZA: Were you paid for the reviewing of the articles?
MS. PENZA: Why did you do those for no pay?
MS. PENZA: Now, you said there were other things you had to do for Allison?
MS. PENZA: And what were those called?
MS. PENZA: And what types of things would you do as acts of care?
NICOLE: So we had to do, like, some kind of act of care for Allison. Sometimes I would bring fresh flowers or I would like go out and get flesh flowers once I got to Albany for her house. Sometimes I would, like, if she was coming into the City, I would make her, like, a list of all the different art things, artistic things going on in the City that I thought she might be interested in and, like, links to, like, the tickets. Anything that -- it was explained to us it's, like, anything that was helpful or made, like, our Master's life better could be considered an act of care so we had to do one once a week.
MS. PENZA: Were there ever -- aside from the collateral that we talked about, were there any other times within DOS where you provided sensitive information to Allison?
NICOLE: Yes. In the beginning, another assignment that I got was to message her, like, I had to tell her a secret every hour, like, on the hour, I had to text her, like, some secret which is really hard to do.
MS. PENZA: And did -- at some point did you have to take a sex survey?
NICOLE: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Then there was also -- she came home to her house, and India and I were there as well as another girl, Jay, and she gave us, like, this survey printed out and then we had to turn it back in to her. And it was, like, a ten page, like, sex survey on, like, intimate questions about our first sexual experiences, what, like, how we viewed sexuality, what, what we, like, liked or didn't like or, just a lot of different questions.
MS. PENZA: Was Jay a DOS slave?
MS. PENZA: Who was her Master?
MS. PENZA: And so then would Allison have been her Grandmaster?
MS. PENZA: And what would the defendant have been to Jay?
MS. PENZA: You tell me.
MS. PENZA: At some point, were you and the other women in your group branded?
MS. PENZA: Who from your group was branded first?
MS. PENZA: What's Danielle's profession?
MS. PENZA: Why was she branded first?
NICOLE: So her way of contributing to DOS, Keith put her in charge of branding everyone. So she got -- everyone underneath his circle, because all his slaves were already branded but then Danielle was put in charge of branding the, like, new slaves. So she got branded first and then was learning how, like -- it's terrifying. She was just learning how to use the cauterizing iron or pen. It's a cauterizing pen.
MS. PENZA: Were you -- did you actually interact with Danielle while she was learning?
NICOLE: Yes, and we watched a video of this guy -- we watched this video of a guy getting his head branded, like. Like, okay, it was, like, a tattoo but branded instead. So, swirls. Oh, my God, it was awful, literally, just watching swirls being branded in his head. I thought I was going to -- oh, my God, he was about to pass out in the video but -- it was intense.
MS. PENZA: So you watched that and then did Danielle get branded or had she already been branded?
NICOLE: That might -- I don't remember whether it was before or after she got branded, but I, it was definitely when, you know -- India and I knew what was coming.
MS. PENZA: Where was, where was Danielle branded, like, geographically branded?
NICOLE: It actually ended up being in Brooklyn, in New York. They all drove down to Brooklyn, New York.
MS. PENZA: Were you present?
NICOLE: I was. Allison told me that I needed to support Danielle and that I needed to clear my schedule and go with them.
MS. PENZA: And so was Danielle branded by somebody who does brands --
MS. PENZA: -- professionally? Let me finish my question. It's okay.
Was Danielle branded by somebody who does branding professionally?
MS. PENZA: Did she -- when did you first see the symbol, the branding, the symbol that you would be branded with?
MS. PENZA: Were you told what that brand was a symbol of?
NICOLE: I was told, yes, I was told. I was told something that did not end up being the truth but I was -- yeah, I was told what it was.
MS. PENZA: Okay. Who were you told by?
MS. PENZA: And what did Allison tell you?
NICOLE: So she said the sign was, like, a line and then two lines and then a squiggly -- and so it was this. It was supposed to be this is, this is the horizon, these are the mountains and this is the water and it's sealed by fire. So it's earth -- wait. Sorry. Air, earth, water and it's sealed by fire which is the iron, the cauterizing iron. So it was supposed to be a symbol of all of the elements was what I was told.
MS. PENZA: Did you believe her when she told you that?
MS. PENZA: So after Danielle was branded, did there come a time when you and your group were branded?
MS. PENZA: Where did that take place?
MS. PENZA: And how, in the room, how was everybody dressed?
MS. PENZA: Yes.
NICOLE: So it was, like, a whole process before of, like, measuring because they all had to be the exact same size and they had to be in the same place so we were like doing a lot of measuring before and then when we had to walk in the room, everyone had to be naked.
MS. PENZA: Was Danielle naked?
MS. PENZA: Was Allison naked?
MS. PENZA: And who went first?
MS. PENZA: And can you -- was what each of the women said the same for each of you?
MS. PENZA: And was there something you were, you and the other women were instructed to say at the beginning of the branding?
NICOLE: Yes. All this was, like, added in last, like, right before or -- I mean, I was unaware of it at least until right before and Allison pulled out this kind of like letter that basically said -- oh, my God. It said -- so before we were going to get branded, we had to read this letter to Allison saying, like, we were giving our lives to her, to our Master, and, like, we couldn't ever speak negatively about our Master and everything that we built had to, like, be built for our, for our Master or, like, we had to help them build whatever they wanted to build. Just a lot of things that, obviously, I was not particularly excited to say.
MS. PENZA: Did you have to ask to be branded?
MS. PENZA: Do you remember the words?
MS. PENZA: Were all of the women who were branded positioned the same way?
NICOLE: Sorry. I'm just thinking. I think it was, like, Master, please brand me. It was something pretty straightforward like that.
So there was, like, a table or, like, a massage table I guess, a massage table. And so Michele was laying on it and then one person was at her head, one person -- so one person was holding her feet, one person was holding her hands like over her head and Danielle was doing it. So I was at her feet that time and India was at her head and Allison was sitting on the bed.
MS. PENZA: Was this being taped?
MS. PENZA: Each one of them?
MS. PENZA: How did Michelle's branding go?
MS. PENZA: How could you tell?
MS. PENZA: And who went next?
MS. PENZA: And were you branded?
MS. PENZA: What -- can you describe what that was like?
NICOLE: Yeah. Yes. Well, I was -- so the whole idea was that it's, like, pain is love or, like, love is, you show your love through pain. And part of this whole, like, thing that we're supposed to read said, like, you know, you show your love for your Master by this pain. And I was just, like, not having that. I didn't want to say any of that. I wasn't having that. I was, like, resigned to the fact that I was getting branded, fine, but I was not -- I did not want to mean any word there. And I was, like, I'll do this for my family. Like, I will -- like, if I have to connect love and pain, because Allison said, while you are going through this pain, I want you to think of me so it's connected, and I was like no F'ing way, I'm thinking about my family, and --
MS. PENZA: When you say you said that, did you say that out loud?
NICOLE: No. I said it in my head. I would have liked to have said it out loud. I said it in my head and I just thought, no, I'm doing this for my family and, like, all, all, connect that to my family.
And I just thought -- okay, it sounds really stupid, but I thought, like, what would you do for your little brother, how much pain would you go through for him? And I thought I can do this, like, I can do this. And I just was, like, I -- and I know, I know if I, like, compartmentalize in my brain that I can handle a lot of pain, so I was, like, we can do this. So that's what I thought about. I thought about my little brother, I thought about my mom, and I just thought I can do this.
And the other thing I realized in, like, kind of a humbling way while it was happening, because it real, real, really fucking hurt -- sorry -- was, like, wow, like, I actually am not as strong as I pretend to be or want to be. Like, if I was really being tortured, like, if I was really being tortured and there was no end to it, I wouldn't be able to handle it. Like, I was trying so hard to think of my brother and be able to handle all this pain, but I was, like, if this didn't end, I'm not sure I would be able to do it.
Like you always want to think you're -- you always want to think that you're really brave and then you could, like, protect people no matter what. Right? But I just realized if this pain never stopped -- like, I knew that I would be okay because I knew it was one line and, like, I knew there were, like, a set amount of lines and all I had to do -- I just kind of, like, disconnected from my body, held my breath and didn't say a thing. I just, like, stayed perfectly still. And afterward, all, the girls were, like, impressed but that -- I didn't say anything or I didn't cry. I just, like, completely tried to just disconnect from my body and, like, this pain will be over and you will be okay and that was it.
MS. PENZA: After you were branded, what did you think of the symbol itself?
NICOLE: I think there's like another part of it where, like, again, after you go through something like that and, like, an adrenaline rush like that, you do feel kind of like, you're like, wow, I just -- like, I just fucking went -- so sorry -- I just went through that and you kind of do feel like, like, strong in a weird way. I think, once, like -- I mean, you're kind of messed, your head is all messed up because of the adrenaline, but you do feel like I just did, that, like, I can't believe that.
And India and I kind of looked at the symbol and we were, like, Okay, like all the symbols, like earth, water, air, fire, like, I guess that's kind of cool, maybe we can look at it as like an ancient symbol and we can make it mean like this ancient symbol of strength because that's what we, like, we were trying to build by being in this group. So I was, like, Okay, I can, I can learn to like this, I can look at it as a symbol of strength.
MS. PENZA: And at that time, did you communicate positive things about the brand?
NICOLE: Yeah. I think I ended up saying, like, it looks like an ancient symbol, like, it looks cool, because Keith asked me.
MS. PENZA: Did you later learn -- what did you later learn that the brand actually represented?
MS. PENZA: And do you still have that brand on your body right now?
MS. PENZA: At some point, was there a discussion about you recruiting your own slaves?
MS. PENZA: Can you just talk generally about that?
NICOLE: There was always talk about, there was always talk about us recruiting our own, someone just -- I mean, when -- we were always supposed to have someone that we mentored as well eventually. There was a point in time where it got a little more, like, pressure and more -- there just became a lot more pressure that we were supposed to recruit people.
MS. PENZA: What was the -- what were the steps that had to be taken in order to recruit someone?
NICOLE: You had to, like, find someone that you thought would be good for it, that was, like, that had, like, a joy for life, and I think it was described once, like, they, they had, like, a sparkle in their eye, they had just, like, a joy for life. The first thing you had to do is, like, was send a picture to Allison and I believe that then it was, the picture was sent to Keith and the person had to be okayed by both Keith and Allison before you could even have a conversation with them.
MS. PENZA: Did you ever recruit any of your own slaves?
(Continued on next page.)
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that we had gone over a little over. If you would like --
THE COURT: Is this a good time to break?
MS. PENZA: I think so.
THE COURT: All right. Let's take our afternoon break.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits.)
THE COURT: All right. The witness may stand down.
Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
Let's wait for the witness to leave.
(Witness steps down.)
THE COURT: Are you going until the end of the day?
MS. PENZA: I will not go to the end of the day. I am a very bad estimator so I'm very sorry about that but I think I have about 20 minutes left.
THE COURT: Well, I just want to provide that information to the defense. So we will start the defense cross-examination at about, a little after 4:00.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We will take ten minutes.
(Recess taken.)
(Continued on next page.)
THE COURT: Let's bring in the witness, please. Thank you.
(Witness resumes the stand.)
THE COURT: Please bring in the jury.
(Jury enters the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, everyone.
All right. Ms. Penza, you may continue your examination of the witness.
The witness is reminded that she is still under oath.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
DIRECT-EXAMINATION (Continuing) BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Nicole, before we go back to where we were, I just wanted to ask a few questions about what activities took place while you were in Brooklyn. Were you living in Brooklyn the entire time that you were part of DOS?
MS. PENZA: And the travel to and from Clifton Park, were there times when you either traveled from Brooklyn, or to Brooklyn from Clifton Park?
MS. PENZA: When you would do that, you would go from Brooklyn into the city to take the bus or train and then up to Clifton Park?
NICOLE: Yes. There was a couple of times where I drove straight from my house up to Albany, once with Danielle and at least once or twice with India, who was driving Allison's car. But most of the time I would take -- I would go from my house in Brooklyn to the city and then either go to the bus station or the train station.
MS. PENZA: And the initial collateral that you provided, did you prepare that while you were in Brooklyn?
MS. PENZA: And how about your later monthly collateral?
THE COURT: And you prepared that in Brooklyn as well?
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: And how about the transcription project for Pam's memorial?
MS. PENZA: And how about the articles that you read and reviewed?
NICOLE: The majority of them were done in Brooklyn, like at my house or the cafe right by my house. Maybe a couple of them might have been done up in Albany, but the majority of them were in Brooklyn.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government moves into evidence Government Exhibit 1372 and Government Exhibit 664 on consent of the defense.
MR. AGNIFILO: We do consent.
THE COURT: Government Exhibits 1372 and 664 are received in evidence.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Government's Exhibits 1372 and 664 received in evidence.)
MS. PENZA: Nicole, when we broke -- when we took our afternoon break, we were discussing recruitment; is that right?
MS. PENZA: Did Allison ever give you any suggestions on how you might recruit people?
NICOLE: Well, like recruiting, if -- recruiting into the first five-day was one option or recruiting into The Source. So if someone that was interested in the first five-day or interested in The Source, but as far as -- do you mean as far as, like, what to say to people?
MS. PENZA: That's what I guess -- I think what I'm asking is what you may have just been explaining, was one way to recruit people into DOS to first have them take The Source or a five-day?
MS. PENZA: Was that something that Allison discussed with you?
NICOLE: Yes, because what she said was if they were -- if they, like, enjoyed the five-day, the first five-day -- or that was a way to kind of gauge a little bit whether they would be right or not, was putting them in the first five-day and then if that went well -- maybe it was different for each person, but, like, I guess The Source for me because that would have made sense.
MS. PENZA: I'm showing you what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 1372. Is this an e-mail from Allison Mack to you and India and --
MS. PENZA: -- and two people whose names are redacted, so I don't know who they are?
And does it say, "Prospects for the lifetime agency"?
MS. PENZA: What is this spreadsheet?
NICOLE: So when she started to get really intense about recruitment, she made this prospects for the lifetime agency and we had to put in names of people that we were, like, considering that we thought might be good, that we thought might be interested. Yeah.
MS. PENZA: I also wanted to go back to one thing you talked about before. There was the time when the defendant gave you the $10,000 in the bag?
MS. PENZA: Were there ever any other discussions about you being paid to be in Albany?
NICOLE: One other time, or another time he asked me kind of towards the beginning that I knew him, he asked me how much it would cost for like my time for a year. So, for me to come up to Albany for a year, like, how much that would cost.
MS. PENZA: Did you actually do a calculation?
NICOLE: In the sense that I was going back and forth, and from what I understood, like, it was frustrating that I was, like, going back and forth, because my schedule was very difficult, so, like, how much would it be for me to have all of your time in Albany, was what I got from that.
MS. PENZA: And did you actually do a calculation for the Defendant?
NICOLE: Yeah, in the sense of, like, actually how much I was making at my job was like between 60 to 80,000.
MS. PENZA: Did you tell that to the Defendant?
MS. PENZA: Was there further discussion after that?
MS. PENZA: Was there, in general, pressure for you to be in Albany?
MS. PENZA: Is that something that continued throughout the time you were in DOS?
MS. PENZA: And then while you -- when you were describing the branding ceremony, you said that you had to say something about everything that you build will be for your master?
NICOLE: Like you had to build -- you had to help your master build whatever they wanted to build and then that -- it was like you had to help them build whatever they wanted to build, which seemed like another strange thing to me, but -- because it might or might not have anything to do with what I wanted. That was in there. And then kind of the idea that -- I mean, really, like, whatever I built, they could ask for it any time because that was the way that things were structured, so.
MS. PENZA: Is that what you understood?
MS. PENZA: What did that mean -- what did that mean to you looking towards the future?
NICOLE: Well, like whatever I -- let's say I built a company, then either I had to build -- help build already like an existing company, which is kind of what I was doing with The Source, or if I built my own company, then, like, it would have to in some way like back DOS. Not necessarily financially, but maybe if they asked financially. But, like, let's say, like, somehow my company would have to support Allison, like, or -- I'm not sure if that makes total sense, but....
MS. PENZA: But that was what you understood?
MS. PENZA: Now, you said at some point you met Jay?
MS. PENZA: Did Jay ever become involved with The Source?
MS. PENZA: Did you ever talk to Jay about The Source?
MS. PENZA: Did you understand -- what did you understand about Jay's financial situation at the time?
NICOLE: She was in a pretty tough financial situation. She had just given up, like, everything to move to Albany, everything in L.A. She had just moved across the country. I don't know at India's pressure or -- but she had just moved -- all of a sudden moved across the country to Albany. And, so, she was living in one of the rooms in Allison's house and she had just brought like some of her stuff and her cat. And yeah, she didn't have -- she just spent all of her money moving across the country, which is incredibly -- it's expensive.
MS. PENZA: Was she trying to make money through The Source?
MS. PENZA: Yes.
MS. PENZA: Did you and she discuss that?
MS. PENZA: What were your feelings on -- at that point, how long had you been working for The Source?
MS. PENZA: Okay.
NICOLE: But awhile. I mean, I had been working for The Source for probably about a year, like actually teaching.
MS. PENZA: And how did you feel about the compensation structure for The Source?
NICOLE: Well, I was happy to at least be getting compensated for teaching at that point even it was just very little. But the -- I just felt like it was too expensive.
MS. PENZA: Did it seem viable to survive financially just working at The Source?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to the form of the question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. PENZA: I have to ask another question.
MS. PENZA: Did you think somebody could make a living working for The Source?
MR. AGNIFILO: Same objection, Judge.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. PENZA: How much money do you think somebody could make working for The Source?
NICOLE: I -- I don't know because everything depends on how many students you have. What became very apparent to at least me and what Jay and I had discussed was it's really hard to enroll students. So if you're teaching at, like, a really reputable acting repertoire and there are students coming in constantly, that would be great. But this, you have to, like, go out and enroll each person and it takes a lot of time to enroll each person. It's not like you have a flow of students coming in. So I believe it would be -- what Jay and I were saying it was just going to be really hard to make that work.
MS. PENZA: Did you know anyone who was making their living just from working at The Source?
MS. PENZA: How did Allison treat Jay?
NICOLE: Well, there was a similar pattern in that she would be really, really kind at first and also just that pattern of really kind and then mean, that sort of like -- so she would be -- Allison would be really loving towards Jay and then she would just like undercut her or like get mad at her for something or make comments about something. So it was -- I witnessed a mix of both.
MS. PENZA: Did Allison ever comment on Jay's appearance?
NICOLE: I remember once it was an issue that Jay had gone to like a volleyball game, which was like something that a lot of people went to and she wasn't wearing a bra and, like, that that was a problem.
MS. PENZA: And did Allison say why it was a problem?
NICOLE: Because, like, Jay used -- it was too sexy or Jay used her body in a sexual way. It was something that it wasn't okay for her to draw attention to her figure.
MS. PENZA: And was that confusing to you?
MS. PENZA: Why?
NICOLE: Well, there's just a lot of mixed messages, because I had gotten comments like that too if I wore like a tight pair of jeans or something like that. It's like you were using -- like supposedly you were using your sexuality. But then it's also, like, we're supposed to be losing weight so we looked good. So it's, like, we're supposed to be losing weight so we look good but we can't actually wear clothes that show that. Like, what?
There was just a lot of mixed messages all the time about, like, we're supposed to be like -- there's all these sexual things happening and yet we're not supposed to be overtly sexual. Like, we can't even dress in a way -- like, they gave me a hard time for wearing makeup, or -- and --
MS. PENZA: Were you ever told you couldn't wear makeup?
NICOLE: I had -- that I couldn't put on makeup before I went out for, like, a walk with Keith and Allison. And they said they were pushing against, like, my vanity, but I didn't really understand it.
MS. PENZA: Did there come a point when you understood there to be people leaving NXIVM?
MS. PENZA: Who was the first person you heard had left?
NICOLE: The first person that left that kind of caused a big stir within that community was Mark Vicente.
(Continued on following page.)
BY MS. PENZA (Continuing):
MS. PENZA: And did Allison say anything to you about Marc Vicente leaving?
NICOLE: Yeah. Well, she said -- we were, like, driving up to Albany with one other person, and they were talking about Mark leaving and how, like, shocking that was because, like, nobody ever leaves the NXIVM community. And he was, like, a very high person in the NXIVM community, so, like, it was a really big deal that he left.
And, like, at first, everyone was, like, trying to act like it wasn't -- they were being civil about it or, like, trying to say, like, Oh, he left, everything's, like, honorable, or, like, Everything's okay.
And then all of a sudden, it started to be like, No, he's not -- he's causing problem. He's speaking badly about the NXIVM community. He's destructive. He's doing all these things.
So, it went very quickly from being kind of like, Mark's leaving, it's a big deal, but it's okay because it's amiable, we're all fine, everyone's all fine with it, to then it being, He's being really destructive and how could this have happened and why is he being so destructive.
So, he was the first person to leave.
MS. PENZA: Did Mark Hildreth leave?
MS. PENZA: How did you feel when Mark Hildreth left?
MS. PENZA: Why?
NICOLE: Because he had gotten me into ESP. Like, he had enrolled me in ESP and all of this, this community. And, so, part of my just felt like it's not fair. You don't get to leave if I don't get to leave.
Obviously, he didn't know about DOS, but just there was a part of me that was like -- I just felt sad that he was leaving because even though we didn't always get along, he was still, like, a person that I trusted. And, also, it just really highlighted how much I wish I could be him leaving.
MS. PENZA: At some point, did you hear something about Sarah Edmondson?
MS. PENZA: What happened, did Allison tell you something?
NICOLE: India, actually, told me that there was, like -- Coach Summit was happening, and something had happened at Coach Summit. And I didn't know what happened because I was in New York City. So, I had come up to Albany and I didn't know what was going on.
And India told me that something had happened at Coach Summit, that Sarah's husband had seen her brand and, like, kind of -- as far as I understood it, a little bit of all hell broke loose because he confronted Sarah, Sarah told him what had happened, and she left.
MS. PENZA: That's what India's telling you?
MS. PENZA: Did India say anything to you about Sarah's collateral?
NICOLE: Yeah. She said that she had given up her -- so, like part of her collateral had been the Vancouver NXIVM center that Sarah had pretty much built. And Sarah had -- when Sarah left DOS and all -- she had signed over her -- the Vancouver center to Lauren Salzman.
MS. PENZA: How did you -- what was your feeling when you heard about this, about Sarah?
NICOLE: First, it was just, like, shocked that this had happened. And then I was like, wow, she, like, gave up -- I kind of thought of it as like she handed over her collateral, she gave up her collateral and left. Like, left the whole community. And I was just, like, oh, my gosh.
But, also -- and the way India said it too, it was like she chose --
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this as hearsay.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, we're offering it for the effect on Nicole.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled.
These statements are not being offered for the truth of the matter asserted but only to the effect that these comments that were made by India or whoever --
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, your Honor.
MS. PENZA: Are you currently speaking about comments --
THE COURT: No, no. I have my job, you have yours.
THE COURT: Do you want to clarify the question --
MS. PENZA: Yes.
THE COURT: -- in view of the objection?
MS. PENZA: Yes, your Honor.
MS. PENZA: What you're describing right now, are these impressions you learned from India?
THE COURT: All right. The answer to this question is being offered not for the truth of the matter asserted; in other words, the truth of the statements that are allegedly made by India, but only for the effect that those statements had on the witness.
MS. PENZA: I actually withdraw my response to Mr. Agnifilo. India is -- the Government views India as a co-conspirator and --
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, can we have a sidebar.
THE COURT: I think that's a good idea.
(Continued on the following page.)
(The following occurred at sidebar.)
THE COURT: Tell me the reason for your request.
MR. AGNIFILO: I asked for the sidebar because I don't want the Government to talk about who, in their view, are co-conspirators in front of the jury.
THE COURT: I agree with you.
MS. PENZA: And I apologize.
THE COURT: Your apology is accepted.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: So, what are we doing now?
Do you have more questions for this witness?
MS. PENZA: I do have more questions for this witness.
Right now, in terms of this point that we're at, the Government views this as a co-conspirator statement and we believe it is admissible.
MR. AGNIFILO: I believe that they said that India is a victim. I think that they've been on record saying --
MS. PENZA: People can be both victims and co-conspirators.
THE COURT: Well, that's true.
All I'm going to do is withdraw my statement, you withdraw your statement, we just move ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: If there's an objection, it's been overruled.
MR. AGNIFILO: Got it.
THE COURT: Let's keep going.
(Continued on the following page.)
(Sidebar ends; in open court.)
MS. PENZA: I am going to ask you a different question.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: After Sarah left, did you hear of anyone else in DOS leaving?
MS. PENZA: Who told you that?
MS. PENZA: And who did they tell you had left?
MS. PENZA: And what did they tell you?
NICOLE: Well, at first, that she had said her grandmother was sick, and then she had kind of just stopped responding to India, and then she had actually talked to India's mom.
MS. PENZA: Did Allison say anything to you at that point about you leaving?
NICOLE: Yes. So, that was really -- when Jay left, I was, like, what, she could leave? And Allison turned to me and said, Look, you can -- like, Look, Nicole, you can leave if you just destroy everything. See? You can be like Jay and you can leave, just if you destroy everything.
And I was like -- I didn't really say anything back because, obviously, my intention was never to destroy anything. So, it was, like, the way she said it to me, I was just, like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not going to leave and destroy things. That was how I felt at that moment.
MS. PENZA: At that point, did you -- how did Jay leaving effect you?
MS. PENZA: And, so, what did you do after that?
NICOLE: I just started paying attention to -- there was so much going on internally that was kind of like falling apart in the companies, so I just started to pay attention to what was happening.
MS. PENZA: Did other members of DOS begin leaving?
NICOLE: Yeah.
So, I was just kind of quiet. There was a lot -- there were people calling people, like, saying that NXIVM was really bad and that, like, people had found out --
MS. PENZA: Sorry, are you hearing this from Allison?
MS. PENZA: So, you're hearing these things from Allison and India.
Who did you hear left?
NICOLE: So, first Sarah, then Jay, then Valerie, then Rachel. That all happened, like, pretty quick. And then Souki left, like a week, few weeks later.
MS. PENZA: And how did Souki leaving effect you?
NICOLE: That had a really big effect on me because I felt like Souki was, like, as in it as I was. Like, I had been -- Jay was relatively new. I had been in there for, like, a year and a half at that point and so had Souki; maybe not quite as long, but, like, as intensely. I knew that she had gone through some stuff that had been as intense as what I had gone through. And that she both, like, mentally and actually could leave, like, A, without her collateral being released, but also just, like, mentally could leave, it gave me a lot of strength.
MS. PENZA: After Souki left, did you have a conversation with Allison?
NICOLE: Yeah. There was, like, so much talk about -- well, I had told her a couple of times that like -- after Mark left, that I had told her that I had wished that I could leave. And she snapped at me.
And then I was really -- they were talking about all these people being very destructive, right, like they're trying to destroy these things, so I was trying to be very honest with Allison, and I was like, I am thinking about these things.
Like, I was trying to -- so, I tried to tell Allison again, like, that I wanted to leave, and she just snapped at me. We were in the car on the way to Albany, and she kind of lost her temper at me and just said, Why are you even still here? Like, if you want to leave, why are you even still here?
And I was like, My family?
And she was like, Well, what if your collateral wouldn't be released?
MS. PENZA: How did you feel when she said that?
NICOLE: Like, are you for real? Like, is this real? Are you telling me the truth?
And I was like -- I just was trying to figure out whether she was telling the truth.
MS. PENZA: And, so, what did you do next?
NICOLE: That was -- I don't remember the exact days of what was what, but I know that in the middle of that, kind of all that's going on with India's birthday and then I think this happened, and I went back to Brooklyn. And the first -- and I didn't have the courage yet to leave, just straight-up leave DOS. I was, like, still trying to kind of, like, gauge is she telling the truth? Is she not? Like, what's real and what's not, it becomes very hard to tell what's real and what's not when you're going through situations like this, or while I was going through this.
So I told -- the first step that I took was I told Allison that I did not want to work for The Source anymore.
MS. PENZA: What happened after you told Allison that?
NICOLE: She said, Okay. She was like -- yeah, she said that was okay.
So, I was like okay, great. So, one thing, at least if that's the only thing that, like, all this kind of chaos got me out of, that's good because I didn't want to work for The Source anymore.
So, I just kind of kept, like, watching what was happening and just thinking more about it. Like, okay, so the company is sort of imploding from the inside out, all of NXIVM, so maybe -- I didn't really feel like I could -- I wasn't sure if I could fully trust Allison when she said that my collateral wouldn't be released, but my logic was that the company was kind of starting to implode from the inside out so maybe they wouldn't be able to -- they didn't really have a foot to stand on. Like, they weren't really as intimidating anymore, if that makes sense.
MS. PENZA: Now, at that time, was there any blog coming out that was covering what was happening with DOS?
NICOLE: Yeah, there was this blog called The Frank Report that started blogging about all this and blogging about DOS and blogging about different people in the NXIVM community. I guess it had been doing that for a while, but it was not on my radar.
MS. PENZA: And at some point, did you appear on that blog?
NICOLE: Yeah. And right -- maybe like two or three days after I officially pulled out of The Source, an article came up online that said that I was a, like, sex slave of Keith Raniere's.
MS. PENZA: And, so, what happened after that?
NICOLE: It was, like -- it was just that, like, tiny bit of, like, courage or whatever I needed. It was like that flash of reality and it was just, like, the last little thing and I was like, okay, no. Just no. Like, no. What I -- what I thought that I was getting into back then was a women's empowerment group and now there is something saying that I am somehow a man's sex slave? I'm like Allison told me in the car that she wasn't going to release my collateral if I leave. Like, the company is imploding from like the inside out. Like, I think I can do this. Like, I can do this and it will be safe and I'm just going to do it. Like, now is the option. Like, now is this little window when I can get out, and I'm taking it.
And it was just -- that was it. That moment, I wrote Allison a letter and I said, I'm not doing this anymore. It's not for me.
MS. PENZA: What was the tone of your letter?
NICOLE: You know, I was still nice because I still had -- like, they still had my collateral, so I -- and, also, you know, I had been in a year and a half -- I guess I had known Allison for almost, like, two and a half years now, I had been in DOS for a year and a half. Sometimes when you're in that kind of abusive back-and-forth, where sometimes she shows you love, sometimes she doesn't, it was very confusing. I was, like, confused about how I felt about Allison, so I didn't -- even though I did not want to be in DOS anymore, I also didn't want to hurt her. And I didn't want to hurt India and I didn't -- so I didn't want to be mean in the letter partially because they had my collateral and partially because it was a very complicated relationship.
And I didn't even -- I also didn't really understand 'til much later how abusive it had actually been. So, I was trying to just -- I was trying to placate her so that my collateral would still be okay and -- yeah.
And I wrote India a letter too.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MS. PENZA: (Continuing)
MS. PENZA: Did you have any contact with your family at that time?
NICOLE: Yes. Well, I had told my parents because, again, I was scared to tell them what was actually going on, I called my mom and dad and told them I was pulling out of The Source first, first. That was the first step I had taken. I told my roommate about, a little bit about it when that picture had come online. So I was talking to, like, a couple of people but I, I told my parents I didn't want to be involved in anything in Albany anymore. I hadn't told them what had happened yet, but I did, I did start to, like, make moves to, to, like, set that up and also it was a few days away from my 30th birthday and my little brother flee into town for my birthday.
MS. PENZA: Did you tell him what happened?
NICOLE: I -- it took me a really long time to, like, fully tell people what had happened, but I started to tell him. I just said I don't want anything to do with Albany anymore, like, you know, sometimes -- I told him enough. And we had a lot of conversations kind of back and forth and just him being with me also gave me a lot of, just made me -- just being with my little brother is, I mean, it's, like, awesome but he was -- I think I would have felt really lonely on my 30th birthday and he, he came and gave me that support and just, like, having him there made it a lot easier to be, like, to face, to just, like, have the courage to, like, face Allison. I had already sent the e-mail.
MS. PENZA: What happened after you sent the e-mail to Allison?
NICOLE: I made it very clear in the e-mail that she had said that she wouldn't release my collateral. She said, kind of said okay at first and then later, she gave me a lot of pressure to come up to Albany and actually tell everyone in person that I was leaving, yes.
MS. PENZA: Did she say anything about the defendant?
NICOLE: Yeah. She was really disappointed that I didn't tell Keith that I was leaving because I didn't.
MS. PENZA: So did you decide to go up to Albany?
MS. PENZA: Why?
NICOLE: I wanted to leave with, like, my integrity so I thought kind if I did everything right, they would have less reason to release my collateral. Also, everything in this community was so much about, like, your word and your integrity and all these things and so I thought, all right, well, it feels like the most, the best way to have integrity about my choice is to go up there and face them in person and be, like, I am choosing to, like, take back -- like, I thought just doing that in person would be, like, the most, the best way to do that with integrity and also to, to kind of still placate the situation and I had stuff in Albany that I needed to get.
MS. PENZA: Was Allison encouraging you to come up as well?
NICOLE: Yes. She was saying that I owed it to the girls to tell them to their face and I also, like, owed it to Keith to tell him. So, yes, she was definitely encouraging it.
MS. PENZA: Did you take any steps before you went up to Albany?
NICOLE: Yes. I told my roommate enough that -- well, she was already protective and already knew something kind of was going on, but I had told her a little bit about, about what had happened so that she, she was being very protective. So I rented a car because I wanted to have full control over the situation. I was not going to take the train. I was not going to, like, have somebody pick me up. I was not going to be, like -- I wanted full control over the situation.
So I rented a car and Katie had me give her my, the, Allison's address -- Katie is my roommate -- Allison's address. She had me write down, like, when I was going to be up there and when I was expected back and she said that she was going to stay up until I got home and I, I can't -- I did tell my parents something. I don't remember what I told them, but I just tried to set up enough things so that, like, I felt safe going up there and I felt in control.
MS. PENZA: Did you communicate with Allison before -- did you communicate with Allison before you went up about timing?
NICOLE: Yes. So she told me to come up on Monday and I think it was Monday, Monday or Tuesday, and she said they would be free from 8 to 10. And I was, like, okay, that's kind of late but, okay, fine.
So I rented the car for, like, that whole, that day and the next day. And I drove up to kind of, I think, get there around 6 because part of what Allison was pushing me for was also to tell Keith that I was leaving and I hadn't e-mailed him or told him or anything. I didn't feel the need to, personally, but Allison was pushing for that. So I thought, okay, great, I'll do that, again, trying to leave with integrity, trying to give them no extra reason to -- I just want to make sure everything is okay.
And so, yes, so I knew that I was supposed to meet Allison and the girls from 8 to 10.
MS. PENZA: Did you meet with them?
MS. PENZA: What happened?
Where did you meet?
NICOLE: We met at Allison's house. And the -- like, Michelle, Danielle and India were all sitting on the floor and I don't really know what to do, but then Allison said, like, You don't get to sit on the floor, now you have to sit on, like, a chair because you're not, like, part of this. I was, like, Okay, great, I'm not complaining. And I remember I was holding my keys because I was, like -- I was nervous and I was just flipping my keys in my hands.
Kind of like each girl just went around, they asked me what, why, why I was leaving. We heard you were leaving. Like, why are you leaving? And I said, Because I want to take control of my own life and, like, this is not the right path for me, like, I want to take control of my own life and Allison said that the collateral wouldn't be released so I'm choosing to leave.
MS. PENZA: Did Allison say anything to you about India?
NICOLE: So the first thing Allison said was, Look at what you're doing to India. Look at what your leaving is doing to India. And she said she hasn't eaten since she got your e-mail. And then India said, Well, that's not entirely true. And I was, like, I don't even know what's going on but, okay.
MS. PENZA: How long did this meeting last?
MS. PENZA: So, just very generally, what happens for two hours?
NICOLE: Yes. They're telling me that they don't -- that I'm breaking my word, that I'm breaking -- like, Allison said I was like breaking everything, I was, like, breaking our circle but that I'm breaking my word and how will I ever live with myself, I obviously have no integrity so how can I, how will I ever sleep at night, how I put my head on my pillow, how can I do this to them, how can I do this in general, like, I gave my word, like, all these things.
It was a lot but I had, like, one thing in my head which is just, like, you're leaving, you're leaving, you're leaving, you're leaving, you're leaving. So I just kind of listened at, at that coming at me for two hours.
MS. PENZA: Did Allison talk about the defendant at all during that meeting?
NICOLE: Yes, but I don't, I don't remember what she said. I just remember India saying, like, making some comment -- oh, making some comment about how, like, Keith needed the collateral in order to trust people and in order to, like, trust his friends. And I was, like, that doesn't really make sense but okay.
MS. PENZA: Now, did you end up leaving that --
NICOLE: That meeting? Yes, finally. Eventually, like, Allison just threw my house keys which she had, which I also had strict instructions from my roommate to get back, she, like, threw them on the table and I just, I took them and I can't remember whether I gave anyone a hug or not but I walked out.
MS. PENZA: What happened after you walked out?
NICOLE: So I had texted Keith before and said, I'm going to be up, up in Albany these hours, if you want to talk.
MS. PENZA: And did the defendant respond?
NICOLE: He responded but then he, like -- once I was up there, he said, Oh, sorry. I told him I was going to be there from, like, 6 to 10:00 p.m. and then I was leaving. And then he said something like: Oh, I'm sorry I thought you said 10 a.m. No, I'm pretty clear that I said 10 p.m. And he was, like, Well, we have volleyball so you have to wait until after volleyball. I was just, like, but I had already come all the way up there and, again, I was just trying to leave with my dignity and, like, everything okay, and so I thought okay, I'll wait.
Then, like, volleyball went until -- and then it's, like, a half hour turned into an hour. Volleyball went until midnight and then he texted me, Oh, I have to go into a meeting. Okay, then that meeting. Then 1 turns into 1:30, which then turns into 2:30, and at 3 o'clock, I was like F this, I'm done, I'm done. And I don't know if I texted. I think I just texted I'm leaving. And I got -- I was in my car and I was driving away and he texted me, like, I'm just walking towards you now but you seem angry. Do I? Do I seem angry? So I was, like, fine, we're just going to do this.
So I, I, like, parked the car and I went and met him and I think the first thing I remember him saying to me was, like, I can tell by your body language that you're really leaving. And I said, Yes. And I don't remember a lot.
MS. PENZA: Did he ask you any, did he ask you any questions?
NICOLE: He asked me how things went with the girls and I told him, like, it was pretty intense and they said a lot of really mean and awful things. And he was, like, yes, they're just hurt and, you know, they're just hurt, they're disappointed, like, your sisters are disappointed. I'm, like, well, I'm sorry. And then he asked -- and then he asked if I was going to give him back the money.
MS. PENZA: And how did -- how did you react when he said that?
NICOLE: Well, a little bit -- I was nervous because I, there was, like, two times where I kind of saw Keith lose his composure just for, like, a split second where just, like, a flash of anger would come over his face, just for, like, just for a second, and that was one of the times. And it's, like, he got kind of angry and he said, Are you -- Well, are you going to give me back the money? And I was kind of, like, What? Like what, what, what do you mean?
MS. PENZA: And what did he say?
NICOLE: He said, The $10,000. I'm, like, Well, you gave it to me. First of all, it was still in the library, most of it, but I was, like, You gave it to me. And he was, like, I gave it to you as a lifetime partner but you're breaking that.
So I kind of panicked because, again, I was trying to not give them any reason to be upset with me. So I was, like, Yeah, okay, like, okay, yes, fine, fine, I'll give it back to you. Like, I didn't know what to say. I didn't want to upset him.
MS. PENZA: Did he ask you whether you were going to talk badly about them?
NICOLE: One of the last things he said to me was, like, Well, will I ever see you again? And I said, Probably not. And then he said, Will I ever talk to you again? I was, like, Probably not. And, I mean, he said, Well, you do have to message me to, like, give me back the money. I was, like, Okay. And then he asked if I was going to speak negatively about them, about NXIVM, and I said no.
And then I got in the car and I started to drive home and I called Katie and I was talking to her. By this time, it's 5 in the morning and I've once again been up for probably, like, almost 24 hours. I hadn't anticipated all that happening. So I hadn't eaten, like, dinner. So I was tired, emotionally exhausted and scared and all of these things, and I was, like, trying to drive home because I would not stay in Albany. I had to get out of Albany. And I don't know if I took a different way home or if I just had never driven that way, but I drove this really -- it seemed really beautiful, like, my drive home. Like, the sun was rising and it seemed really beautiful. And then I, like, hit New York City traffic coming in. Katie was on the phone with me the whole time to make sure that I, that I got home safely and she was waiting at our house before she went to work to make sure I got home safely and I did.
MS. PENZA: In that final conversation with the defendant, did you ask him about the Master/Slave terminology?
MS. PENZA: And how did he respond to you?
NICOLE: He said that he could have called it anything. He could have called it, like, one/two, red/blue, but he wanted to call it Master/Slave because it pushed on our pride.
MS. PENZA: And did he make any other comments about other organizations?
NICOLE: Yeah. Then he said, like, You guys think, you guys think you have it so bad, but, like, this is nothing compared to, like, other subculture kind of alternative groups. And I just remember being, like -- I mean, I don't even know how I, how I thought about that. I was just, like, why, I'm not trying to be a part of a subculture group.
MS. PENZA: So after you got home to Brooklyn, what was the next, what was the -- did you start telling people about what had happened to you?
NICOLE: I didn't want to. Again, I still did not want to cause any problems so I was trying to, like, leave, exit as gracefully as possible, but I also wanted to make sure that, like -- because it was very confusing in my mind what had just happened and what was happening so I wanted to make sure that I also never, like, go -- I started to tell my -- I told my mom and dad about the collateral. I told my Godmother about the collateral and --
MS. PENZA: Did you tell them in details?
NICOLE: Not, like, explicitly what was in it, but how it had affected me and how strongly it had affected me. My Godmother was a psychologist and she was just, like, you know, groups like this do things like that and that's part of their brainwashing --
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
The jury will disregard the answer.
MS. PENZA: How did your conversations with your Godmother affect you?
NICOLE: She was just making me not to feel bad about what happened and just trying to kind of explain how these things can happen and, and I just wanted my parents to know, like, what, more of what had happened.
MS. PENZA: Did you eventually tell your family about the sexual things that had happened?
NICOLE: No. I broke down to my roommate about it at one time. She, like, she, like, demanded that I tell -- not demanded, but she told me, she asked me about it, and then I broke down to her about it. And then I, like, got myself -- I didn't know fully what I had just been through but I knew that it was obviously really intense so I put myself in therapy. I found a really wonderful therapist so I had told her a couple --
MS. PENZA: Don't. You don't have to share what you spoke to your therapist about.
NICOLE: No. No. No, but I didn't tell my parents about anything sexual happening until they read about it, until, like, articles started coming out and stuff.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may we have a brief sidebar?
THE COURT: All right.
(Continued on next page.)
(The following sidebar was sealed by order of the Court.)
(Sidebar ends.)
(End of sealed portion.)
(Continued on next page.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: All right. We have completed testimony for today.
The witness is excused and you will return on Monday morning at 9:15 to complete your testimony and you may leave. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
(Witness steps down.)
THE COURT: All right. Members of the jury, let me just go over the schedule for next week.
We will begin at 9:15 on Monday morning and 9:15 will be our starting time every day next week, all five days. Our lunch will be from 1:00 p.m. to 1:45 and that way, we will get an extra half hour of testimony in. Instead of at the end of the day, we will get it at the beginning and the middle of the day. So I thank you for your cooperation on that.
Now, I am going to remind you that it is very important that you follow my instruction that you not discuss the case with anyone, not your family, friends, business associates and not your fellow jurors.
In addition, you must not read, listen to or watch or access any accounts of this case on any form of media, newspaper, TV, radio, podcasts or the internet, nor research or seek outside information about any aspect of the case.
Do not communicate with anyone about the case on your phone whether through e-mail, text messaging or any other means, through any blog or website or by way of any social media including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube or other similar sites.
You must not consider anything you may have read or heard about the case outside of this courtroom, whether you read it before or during jury selection or trial. And do not visit any of the locations identified during the course of jury selection or this trial.
If you are taking notes, please leave them in the jury deliberation room.
On behalf of the parties and myself, I want to thank you for your diligent attention to the trial. Have a good weekend, get some rest and we will see you Monday morning at 9:15.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits.)
THE COURT: All right. Please be seated.
Before we adjourn, the government needs another 15 minutes, I take it --
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: -- for its direct?
About how long do you think the cross will take?
MR. AGNIFILO: It will go into the afternoon.
THE COURT: Okay, fine, which means we expect to have another witness on Monday.
Who can we expect to have on Monday?
MS. PENZA: Jay will be testifying on Monday.
THE COURT: Jay will be testifying. That's Monday. And after Jay?
MS. PENZA: We haven't decided yet, Your Honor.
THE COURT: But how long do you expect Jay's direct will be?
MS. PENZA: Probably through lunch the next day depending on how long Mr. Agnifilo goes.
THE COURT: So it could be up to a full day's testimony?
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: On direct.
MS. PENZA: Yes. No? I should let Mr. Lesko answer.
MR. LESKO: I don't expect the direct of Jay to take a full day.
THE COURT: I see.
MR. LESKO: The whole testimony could take a day.
THE COURT: Okay, which will bring us to sometime on Tuesday afternoon. And then when will the Court and the defense know about your next witness? That's the question.
MS. PENZA: I think on Sunday, Your Honor.
THE COURT: On Sunday?
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: She is nothing if not consistent.
THE COURT: Mr. Agnifilo, it's the best that I can do.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was great. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. I was looking for that compliment.
All right. So we are all set for Monday and Tuesday and on Sunday, you will advise us about the witness who will come after Jay.
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much.
Anything else for tonight?
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing. Nothing.
THE COURT: But you do owe me your jury instructions.
MR. AGNIFILO: We do.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much. Have a good weekend.
(Matter adjourned to June 10, 2019 at 9:15 a.m.)