1.Mark Vicente — Cross (Part 9)
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(In open court; Jury not present.)
THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
(Jury enters the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning, members of the jury.
JURORS: Good morning.
THE COURT: We'll continue with the cross-examination of the witness. Mr. Agnifilio, you may continue.
I remind the witness that he's still under oath.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, your Honor.
(Witness takes the witness stand.)
MARK VICENTE, called as a witness, having been previously first duly sworn/affirmed, was examined and testified as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Mr. Vicente.
MARK VICENTE: Good morning.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to ask you some more questions this morning.
MARK VICENTE: Understood.
MR. AGNIFILO: If a question I ask isn't clear, just ask me to rephrase.
Do you recall that in on January 5, 2016, you wrote a letter to the executive board?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I believe that was the date.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll mark it as 326 for identification. I'm just going to show it to the witness. It says 326 on the bottom, and the date, January 5, 2016, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I didn't see the date -- sorry -- it's right there, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall this letter as you sit here today?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say it was a fairly critical letter of the executive board at the time?
MARK VICENTE: Of the entire system.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. You were expressing criticism of the system. And when you say the system, tell the jury what you mean by the system?
MARK VICENTE: I was concerned about the way we were treating people. I was concerned about the disparity between what we said we were about and what we seem to actually be doing to people. So in that sense I had a lot of concerns.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember saying that the fixes that have been implemented so far have been nothing more than Bandaids, words to that effect?
MARK VICENTE: I'd have to read it again.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure, let me show it to you. I want to scan it back a little so you can get more context.
(Witness reviewing document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Take your time and read it over to familiarize yourself with it. I'll ask you questions when you're done.
MARK VICENTE: I recall the Bandaid comment.
MR. AGNIFILO: What were you conveying to the executive board when you said that the fixes done so far are really just Bandaids?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know specifically now what I meant by the fixes done thus far.
The Bandaids I think was in reference to we keep going into coach summits doing rah rah, yeah yeah, enroll, enroll, but that's not solving anything.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember saying to the executive board that the technology that NXIVM had was the best thing that you would ever see?
MARK VICENTE: I would have to see that section.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure, sure. So it's in the paragraph that says, The first thing I see is. And then it's I think four lines down -- three lines down.
(Witness reviewing document.)
MARK VICENTE: I've gotten up to, Whisper behind their backs.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you lost me.
MARK VICENTE: On the left, Whisper behind their backs.
MR. AGNIFILO: Can you read the whole letter, if you want. I was directing you to one particular point.
MARK VICENTE: Can you point to the specific question?
MR. AGNIFILO: You see it?
MARK VICENTE: I see it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Take a look at that part. You can look at anything you want, but that's the part I'm directing your attention to?
MARK VICENTE: I see that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And when you wrote to the executive board that our technology is the best thing you've ever seen, what were you conveying to them?
MARK VICENTE: Two things. One, I was trying to mitigate punishment. So making sure that I still edified everybody, and edify the technology.
The second was that at that time what I thought it did was I believed at that time, you know.
MR. AGNIFILO: You believed at the time that the technology was the best thing you'd ever seen?
MARK VICENTE: At the time.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you say technology, tell the jury what you mean by technology?
MARK VICENTE: Technology was -- the short word they used was tech. The technology was in essence rational inquiry, the body of educational material and the EMs, the Expiration of Meaning.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you say rational inquiry, tell the jury what you mean by that?
MARK VICENTE: My best understanding of rational inquiry is that was the name of patent, an increase system, EMs were an example of that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Patent, do you know who held the patent?
MARK VICENTE: I don't. Because since then I've learned perhaps that there was no patent or it was rejected, so I don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: What is the rational inquiry concept?
MARK VICENTE: From what I remember, the way it was written, it's a series of questions to help a person somehow integrate their internal understanding of reality with actual reality.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to turn to the second page of this letter. Let me let you read the second page, then I'll direct you to a particular part. Take a look then I'll direct you to one particular part.
MARK VICENTE: So read the whole thing?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, to yourself.
(Witness reviewing document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say that one of things that you wanted to convey in this letter is that the leaders of NXIVM ESP were, in your view, arrogant. You used that word several times?
MARK VICENTE: I said we were arrogant, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you are saying to the executive board, We have arrogance and an excuse strategy. What are you conveying to the executive board?
MARK VICENTE: That we are arrogant and have a series of excuses.
MR. AGNIFILO: But in what context? When you wrote these words arrogant, about what?
MARK VICENTE: Our behavior, our leadership.
MR. AGNIFILO: So fair to say you're being critical of the executive board in terms of the executive board's leadership, their behavior, and you're basically saying that they are arrogant in this letter?
MARK VICENTE: We.
MR. AGNIFILO: Including yourself.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: You say at one point here, The old guard is -- A lot of the old guard is straight up punishing. Do you see that there?
MARK VICENTE: I do. I did see it.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you said that the old guard is straight up punishing, what are you talking about?
MARK VICENTE: Some the people who had been there a very, very long time, the old guard, I think what I meant was basically people who were there even before the time I was there.
MR. AGNIFILO: So in that case, the people that you're saying are punishing, you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about who? Who specifically?
MARK VICENTE: Specific people?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MARK VICENTE: I think I was thinking about people like Loretta Garza, Nancy Salzman, people who have been there quite a while.
MR. AGNIFILO: So here in this letter you're telling Prefect, among other people, that she's being punishing, right?
MARK VICENTE: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did anything happen to you after you sent this letter that the old guard and Prefect was being punishing. And that you all, including yourself, are being arrogant and doing that, what happened to you?
MARK VICENTE: Do you mean specifically after the letter or as the years went by?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you kicked out of NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: For writing this letter?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MARK VICENTE: No, I don't think so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you kicked out of NXIVM ever?
MARK VICENTE: Was I kicked out? No.
MR. AGNIFILO: You resigned?
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: You resigned a year-and-a-half later?
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: One of the things you go on to say on the bottom, I'm going to focus you on one paragraph, starting with, This has been. Read that to yourself, then I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about it.
(Witness reviewing document.)
MARK VICENTE: Done.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you say in the letter that you're terrified to say these things, you actually write that?
MARK VICENTE: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you say, I did something like this once before with another organization and things went south pretty badly. Right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What is Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: What is Ramtha?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MARK VICENTE: Ramtha is the -- how do I describe it. The spiritual entity that a woman J.Z. Knight believes that she channels.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you a member of the Ramtha School of Enlightenment at some time before joining NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: I was.
MR. AGNIFILO: What years were you there?
MARK VICENTE: I think various times between 1994 and I think 2004.
MR. AGNIFILO: So for ten years?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, but I traveled backwards and forwards for ten years.
MR. AGNIFILO: You gave the name of a woman when I asked about Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: The woman what has heads the organization is J.Z. Knight.
MR. AGNIFILO: J.Z. Knight?
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me if this is right, J.Z. Knight believes she is channeling a 35,000 year old warrior?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's your understanding because you were a member of the group?
MARK VICENTE: It's my understanding because that's what she said again, and again, and again.
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you come to join Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: Somebody referred me at one point and said, hey, you got to check this out, I think in south Africa actually. And then at some point went up and attended a weekend.
MR. AGNIFILO: Where?
MARK VICENTE: That would have been Yelm, Washington.
MR. AGNIFILO: They have a campus in Washington State, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, they call it the ranch but, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just give us a quick run-down of what would you do in Ramtha? What did you do in Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: It was a body of knowledge. One thing I want -- I don't know how much I can say because I -- there may be issues by my discussing things there. I don't know the legal issues for me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Like what?
MARK VICENTE: Getting sued for saying something. I don't know. I don't understand how the law works in this room. Maybe in this room I can say anything that is mine.
MR. AGNIFILO: I would like permission to ask the witness about his experience.
THE COURT: You can, go ahead. You need to answer, you're under oath. This a Court proceeding.
MR. LESKO: May we have a side bar?
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, we haven't objected to this line of cross-examination. I frankly don't expect to object in the near term. But I would make the point that this is extensive cross-examination on the Ramtha affiliation. At some point we will start objecting if it goes too long and too detailed. I want to alert everyone to that factor.
MS. PENZA: Can we have a proffer of how far we'll go?
MR. AGNIFILO: I've never spoken to this witness. I don't know what he's going to say about it. He mentioned it obviously in his letter to the executive board, so I have the right I believe to explore it. I don't think the jury or anybody else wants to hear too much about Ramtha. I do intend to get the basic idea of what Ramtha is. I want to understand what his problem was that he referenced in the letter to the executive board. Because he seems to be linking his own fear, that's what he said when he said in the letter is, I'm terrified writing this I was with another organization and I did something similar and things went south pretty badly. I need to know what that statement that he made to the executive board in a letter means. I need the context for what that means.
MR. LESKO: We don't have the an issue with that. The concern I have is Mr. Agnifilio dwelling or focusing intensely on aliens communicating to this woman and therefore to her followers.
THE COURT: 35,000 year old aliens.
MR. LESKO: That's unduly prejudicial and inflammatory, and frankly a side-show.
THE COURT: Let's go forward. And when you think things are irrelevant or --
MS. PENZA: I think the word alien is irrelevant.
MR. AGNIFILO: But the jury has to figure out if this man is trustworthy. Is he trustworthy. Is he someone that we should make -- one of the things the Judge is going to instruct on --
I'm speaking. I'm speaking.
MS. PENZA: Speak to the Judge.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair enough.
When the Court instructs the jury as to whether they would rely on this person in making a serious decision in their own life, I think they should know that he thinks that it's good to join a group where a 35,000 year old warrior is being channeled through a woman. I think that might be something that they would want to consider in whether they should trust him. I'm not going to dwell on it, but we're going to talk about it and see what he says.
THE COURT: Well, I'll be watching. And if you have an objection you'll let me know and we'll take it from there.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: You may continue.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you met J.Z. Knight?
MARK VICENTE: I have met J.Z. Knight.
MR. AGNIFILO: How much time have you spent with J.Z. Knight?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know that I can quantify it, a fair amount of time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you believe that J.Z. Knight was channeling a 35,000 year old warrior?
MARK VICENTE: For a few years.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how did you reach that conclusion?
MARK VICENTE: Belief versus evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: So there was no evidence that compelled you to the conclusion that -- let me finish -- that J.Z. Knight was in fact channeling a 35,000 year old warrior; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: There was a evidence. But in retrospect I don't know that I would have called it scientific evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was the evidence that J.Z. Knight was channeling a 35 year old warrior?
MARK VICENTE: They would bring in scientists to do a series of measurements, run a series of tests. The scientist would the say, this is verifiable, this is really happening.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you reach a conclusion during your time in Ramtha that J.Z. Knight perhaps was not channeling a 35,000 year old warrior?
MARK VICENTE: Towards the end, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What caused to you reach that conclusion?
MARK VICENTE: It didn't make sense in the end to me. I was challenged on something that didn't make sense. Then I felt I was threatened in a way that didn't make sense.
MR. AGNIFILO: How were you threatened?
MARK VICENTE: What I heard was that during a particular retreat intensive she had allegedly said in front a thousand people that I'm going to die a terrible death. I realized, okay so now a thousand people in that room that may decide that that's what they should do, let me die a horrible death.
MR. AGNIFILO: I misunderstood, J.Z. Knight said that of herself?
MARK VICENTE: No, allegedly she said it of me, that I would die a horrible death in front of over a thousand very zealous people.
MR. AGNIFILO: That scared you?
MARK VICENTE: You could say that.
MR. AGNIFILO: What you said in your letter to the executive board of NXIVM, is that you're terrified to write these things because you had done this once before in another group and things went south pretty quickly. That's a passage you just read.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So what happened?
MARK VICENTE: The organization turned against me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Rampantly?
MARK VICENTE: The whole company.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was that before or after you made the movie, What The Bleep Do We Know?
MARK VICENTE: That was after it was made.
MR. AGNIFILO: And What The Bleep Do We Know, you made with two other people who are in Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And was the movie, What The Bleep Do We Know, in someway related to the Ramtha philosophies?
MARK VICENTE: It was.
MR. AGNIFILO: How so?
MARK VICENTE: Many of the ideas in that film were ideas that were discussed in that educational model.
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you end up leaving Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: I'm not clear on that, what do you mean?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you leave? Did you resign? Were you kicked out? How did it happen?
MARK VICENTE: No. I wrote a letter, then those things happened, then I just never went back.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you wrote a letter, and then Ms. Knight said the thing about you dying a violent death.
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So what was the letter about before the woman channeling the 35,000 year warrior said these things?
MARK VICENTE: It was concerns about people back stabbing each other and people saying things behind each other's back. And also I didn't believe she was getting actual information. Because in essence, I don't know if I said exactly this way, but I said everybody is so busy kissing your ass, they are not telling you the truth.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said that to Ms. Knight?
MARK VICENTE: That was the kind of thing I think I said.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were critical of the head of the program of Ramtha, Ms. Knight?
MARK VICENTE: The entire system. I thought there was a problem with the system.
MR. AGNIFILO: So fair to say, what you're talking about when you write the letter to the executive board in January 2016, the reference you're making is your circumstances exiting Ramtha years earlier, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. And expressing myself and what I thought was going on as trying to help and the response was not good.
MR. AGNIFILO: After you sent that letter to the executive board in January, 2016, did Keith Raniere stop speaking to you?
MARK VICENTE: No, he did not.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you and he continue to speak about all matter of subjects?
MARK VICENTE: We did. It changed slightly, but we did still.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he tell you in conversations that he valued your input?
MARK VICENTE: He might have, I don't remember specific incident, but he might have.
MR. AGNIFILO: At one point I think in direct examination you were talking about an arbitration between your wife, Bonnie, and Allison Mack that Keith Raniere was playing the role of arbitrator. Do you remember talking about that?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just tell the jury again what was the issue?
MARK VICENTE: The issue at that point I believe was that there were issues that were going on in the source acting company that my wife was pointing out, and regarding the way the leadership is doing things, just excluding people from things and a whole series of things going on.
My wife had been trying to bring this to Allison Mack's attention, and Raniere believed that everything had been resolved. I said to him, It's not resolved. I said, Things are still not working in the company.
He then offer to do an arbitration.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall is this after the letter that you wrote to the executive board in January 2016, this is sometime after that?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was it around the same time, only if you remember?
MARK VICENTE: Again, I don't know the exact sequence.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just take us briefly through the arbitration, what was said, what was done, what, if anything, did Raniere do?
MARK VICENTE: My recollection was that he began the conversation asking everybody if did everybody believed that everybody at this table has good intent. Everybody nodded.
He then elicited from each person what the different issues were. I recall that Allison Mack admitted that she had been trying to destroy my wife, had a series of jealousies, different things.
Raniere took Allison Mack to task for that and said in essence, this is something you need to heal. He said to my wife, I think you've experienced some kind of loss of innocence because of experiencing something like this. That's what I recall right now.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall during the summer of 2016, your wife had professed to a number of people that she felt she had sort of an enlightenment?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was there something, I'm not going to ask about conversations between you and your wife. I'm not asking about anything that you two discussed as a married couple. I'm asking about things you observed and what you understood to be kind of -- let me start again.
During the summer of 2016, did you have conversations with Keith Raniere about something that your wife was experiencing?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was anything of an emotional or spiritual nature, if you understand the question, going on with your wife in the summer of 2016?
MARK VICENTE: Well, she professed to have some kind of realization. And Raniere said that he believed he understood what it was. He explained to her what he believed it was, that is what I recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were privy to any of this?
MARK VICENTE: I think I was privy to one conversation, maybe, not all of them, but one of them.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was that?
MARK VICENTE: I think that Raniere was explaining something about, you know, I think he mentioned a Kundalini type thing. He said he understood it well. And he knew what she was experiencing.
MR. AGNIFILO: And if I could stop you there. Describe to the jury what is a -- what do you mean a Kundalini type thing?
MARK VICENTE: Well, there is the old version of what it is and then I think there is the version he was talking about. I'm not exactly what he was talking about. But there is an old idea in Eastern mysticism that I think they call it the awakening of the serpent, something like that. Some kind of an energy goes up the spine, hits your head, and you have awareness. That's my understanding of the ancient term.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Were you describing the conversation you were privy to?
MARK VICENTE: He said that he understood it and he said he would guide her through her whatever experience this was.
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point your wife Bonnie decided to leave NXIVM EPS, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was January 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: What were the circumstances that led to that?
MARK VICENTE: As far as I remember, she had gone to talk to him to share concerns about what she was seeing, things that she felt that the company was not run on the values that it was suggested but there was a lot of fear, obligation, coercion, that type of thing. I think his response, from what I recall, was something like, you know, don't be the squeaky wheel, don't be the problem.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you present for that conversation?
MARK VICENTE: I was not present for that conversation, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then your wife did leave the company?
MARK VICENTE: A while later. She was trying to maintain her responsibilities, and at a certain point she thought it was time.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you stayed?
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: You stayed for five or six months?
MARK VICENTE: Until the end of May.
MR. AGNIFILO: About five or so months?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: On April 17, 2017, do you remember getting a phone call from Catherine Oxenberg?
MARK VICENTE: April 17.
MR. AGNIFILO: On or about that day?
MARK VICENTE: Could you refresh my memory?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure, I can do that. Let me ask you, your phone number at the time ended in 5414?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know by heart, I'm not going to ask you any full phone numbers at all during our talk here, any aspect of her phone number at the time?
MARK VICENTE: Potentially the area code, but I don't know other than that.
MR. AGNIFILO: An LA-based area code?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me not ask you the date. Do you remember having a phone conversation with Catherine Oxenberg in or about April of 2017?
THE COURT: What year?
MR. AGNIFILO: 2017.
MARK VICENTE: I'm struggling to remember April. I believe May, but I'm struggling to remember April.
MR. AGNIFILO: April 17, 2017?
MARK VICENTE: It's possible. I think that was around the time of the intensive. It's possible I may have called about lodgings for one of the staff.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why would you have called Catherine Oxenberg about lodging?
MARK VICENTE: She had at various times housed staff that were in town for intensives. I'm not saying this for sure, but that's possible.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember, you were having frequent contact in April 2017 and throughout the spring with Sarah, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Sarah, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Frequent phone calls, her calling you, you calling her on a frequent basis?
MARK VICENTE: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Catherine Oxenberg is not someone who you had as frequent contact with, at least in April of 2017, is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, we hadn't spoken a lot. Not as frequent, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point you and Ms. Oxenberg did start speaking a lot, right?
MARK VICENTE: In May I recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: We'll stick with May. Maybe I'll show you something to refresh your recollection. Do you remember -- I'm going to show you something to refresh your -- to see if you can recall the phone numbers. We provided it to the Government. It doesn't have an exhibit number. I'm just going to show it to him?
THE COURT: That's all right. You can show it just to him.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not asking you -- I'm going to ask you not to put any numbers on the record. I'm just going to ask you to look at them.
THE COURT: Does this have an exhibit number?
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to give it exhibit number. It's going to be 345, Judge.
THE COURT: For identification.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me ask you first, you see the highlighted line?
MARK VICENTE: I see the highlighted line, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Does your phone number appear on the highlighted line?
MR. LESKO: Objection. Withdrawn.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: It does.
MR. AGNIFILO: Without getting into any other digits, the other phone number there is an LA-based area code?
MARK VICENTE: That's LA-based, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recognize that number as being Catherine Oxenberg's number?
MARK VICENTE: I don't but; I don't memorize numbers anymore.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall speaking to her -- just so we're clear, you don't recall having a phone conversation one way or the other with her on April 17, 2017, at 10:51:28?
MR. LESKO: Objection, your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: If you recall. You don't recall --
THE COURT: He doesn't recall it. Is that right?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall a conversation.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall the first conversation, regardless of when it was, with Catherine Oxenberg in the spring of 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was in person, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us about that.
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall the exact date. I think it was May, but I did talk to her and.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, objection. Could we approach please?
THE COURT: All right.
(Continued on the next page.)
(Sidebar conference.)
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, I'm not objecting to this line of questioning but I am going to ask for the same instruction that your Honor gave with respect to the conversations with Debra and Kayla regarding the use of this testimony just to establish Mr. Vicente's state of mind and the effect on Mr. Vicente, but not for the truth of the matters asserted by Catherine Oxenberg. I think that same principle applies here.
MR. AGNIFILO: More than fair.
THE COURT: Okay, we'll do that now. You can ask your first question and before he answers I'll give the admonition.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, when we broke briefly you were going to talk about a conversation that you had that you recall in person with Catherine Oxenberg and from what you recall it was May 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was May.
MR. AGNIFILO: And before you get to that conversation, I think we're going to have a --
THE COURT: I'm going to give an instruction to the jury. I'm permitting the witness to testify about what Catherine Oxenberg said to him during these conversations, conversation or conversations. I'm allowing this because these statements of Ms. Oxenberg are relevant to Mr. Vicente's state of mind and their effect on Mr. Vicente. But they are not being offered for the truth of Ms. Oxenberg's statements themselves. Therefore, you are to consider these statements only to the extent that they had an impact on Mr. Vicente's state of mind and their effect on Mr. Vicente and not for the truth of the statements made by Ms. Oxenberg.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
THE COURT: Let's proceed with the question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Very good. Thank you, Judge.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: With that understanding, you can tell the jury about the conversation that you and Ms. Oxenberg had.
MARK VICENTE: My recollection is that I said that I was deeply concerned about India, her daughter. That I had some understanding of some secret society that I thought she was involved in. That I was concerned about her mental state, her weight, and that I thought she might be in danger. That's what I recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: The way you recall, you reached out to Ms. Oxenberg to give her this information?
MARK VICENTE: No. It was a follow up conversation. I believe my wife met with her first.
MR. AGNIFILO: I see. Okay.
MARK VICENTE: And then I think what happened is that I went in person to talk to her.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And so you go to Catherine Oxenberg's house and you tell her the information that you just summarized for the jury; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say she was very concerned?
MARK VICENTE: At first I think she was -- my sense is she was just taking the information in. Then she became concerned later.
MR. AGNIFILO: You at the time were friendly with her daughter, India, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I thought I was very friendly, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall a time on or about the first week of May of 2017 when you went to the Oxenberg's home in Los Angeles and you spoke with India?
MARK VICENTE: I do recall, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What do you recall about that?
MR. LESKO: Objection, your Honor. Perhaps an instruction?
MR. AGNIFILO: Before --
THE COURT: The question.
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to have to do it, but I think there is something before a statement is made.
THE COURT: Go ahead with this question, then we'll see.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me if this is right, was it around the time of India's birthday?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I believe so.
(Continued on next page.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And India was in Los Angeles at that time?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And were you in Los Angeles at that time?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you went to the home where India was, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you bring pies? Do you remember bringing pies?
MARK VICENTE: I may have brought one or two. Cakes for her, yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Okay. All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: This might be a good time to do it, Judge.
If Your Honor wants to give the instruction because I'm going to segue into what was said both ways.
THE COURT: What kind of pie was it?
MARK VICENTE: Ice cream.
THE COURT: It was ice cream.
All right. Members of the Jury, I'm permitting the witness to testify about what India Oxenberg said to him. I'm allowing this because these statements of Ms. India Oxenberg are relevant to Mr. Vicente's state of mind and their effect on Mr. Vicente, but they are not being offered for the truth of the statements made by India Oxenberg; therefore, you are to considered these statements only to the extent that they had an impact on Mr. Vicente's state of mind, and their effect on Mr. Vicente, and not for the truth of the statements made by India Oxenberg. Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, thank you.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, what do you recall you and India Oxenberg saying to each other during this conversation?
MARK VICENTE: I recall giving the cakes and then I began sharing with her I was very concerned about what she was involved in. And then I was afraid for her and myself. And that I was also concerned because I had seen her the day before, and then she had had, I understood, immediately called somebody to say that I was there.
I thought is this like I'm being spied on? And I said I don't know what you're involved in, but I think it's bad.
And then I -- I left.
MR. AGNIFILO: You ran into her in a coffee shop previously, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I think -- yes, the day before when I was actually -- I just -- I think I just picked up the pies.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you -- were you yelling at her?
MARK VICENTE: I think I was upset. I was scared for actually both of us.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your voice was raised?
MARK VICENTE: More than it is now, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you call her a monster?
MARK VICENTE: I -- did I call her -- sorry. I have no idea if I did or not.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you yell at India that she was a monster?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall that I did that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you yell at India that she was spreading hate?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know if those were the exact words, but I remember saying something like, you know, are you -- I was concerned about her passing information on about me that could get me into some kind of danger. That I recall. I don't recall the exact words.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell her that her life was in danger?
MARK VICENTE: I don't -- I'm sorry. I can't recall the conversation with that level of specificity.
MR. AGNIFILO: And just to be clear, there are two conversations that we've covered. There was the conversation that happened at the time you bought the pies, or the cakes, whatever it was, and then there was a second conversation at her house.
For the time being, I'm talking about the conversation at her house.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Again, just -- so let's just talk about that conversation specifically.
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: You went there to confront India.
MARK VICENTE: No, actually I went there to deliver the pies. I was hoping to, you know, just enjoy the party and maybe have an opportunity to, you know, talk to her aside.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you stay?
MARK VICENTE: No, I left.
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't stay.
MARK VICENTE: I did not stay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. You -- did you speak to Catherine Oxenberg at all when you were at this party?
MARK VICENTE: I don't think I spoke to her at that party, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: The only one you spoke to when you went to this party was India, right?
MARK VICENTE: Um, I think I also spoke to one of her sisters, I think, who answered the door.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you spoke to India, you told her her life is in danger; didn't you?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall specifically. But that -- I did feel that.
MR. AGNIFILO: You felt when you were at the home and you were talking to India, you felt her life was in danger, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know. I do know I was very concerned about her. I was concerned that she was being used as an agent against myself and others. I don't recall the specific language that I used.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling her that you believed your life was that danger?
MARK VICENTE: I do think I said something to that effect.
MR. AGNIFILO: And tell the jury exactly what you remember saying to India and how you said it about your life being in danger.
MARK VICENTE: Well, the sequence I remember is I went to the door. I was intending to bring the pies, you know, maybe attend the party. I was hoping to talk to India and share my concerns.
But when I saw her, I just decided that I couldn't come in and I just told her I was very concerned about what she was involved in. I was concerned about her spreading information about me. I was concerned for my -- I think I was concerned for my safety. I don't remember my exact words. And concerned for hers. And I was worried that she was involved in something that was really bad.
I remember she said to me she didn't know what I was talking about. I think I said I think you do. And then I decided to leave and not attend.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember her telling you that she's never been happier?
MARK VICENTE: I don't -- but that is consistent with a lot of the -- the DOS women said.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall you saying in exchange that's what they want you to think?
MARK VICENTE: Sir, I think you have a lot more information about this conversation than I do, because I don't recall that.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you agree with me you weren't using with India the tone of voice that you're speaking to the jury and to the Court here today?
MARK VICENTE: I wasn't. I was quite afraid.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were afraid. So it was an urgency about your language; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: I think so. I felt it was an urgent situation.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you felt it was a threatening situation?
MARK VICENTE: Potentially, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: A threatening situation both to you and to India?
MARK VICENTE: Both, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And were you trying convey to India that magnitude of threat or fear; is that the fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: I can you ask the question one more time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
You were presenting the situation with a great sense of urgency; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And ultimately, as you said, you did not stay at the party. You delivered the pies or the cakes and you left, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall placing a phone call to Keith Raniere within the week from the time that you saw India and illegally tape recording him?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me break it down.
Did you call Keith Raniere from California where you were and tape record the phone call?
MARK VICENTE: Can you tell me which -- which call?
MR. AGNIFILO: May 7th. May 7th, 2017.
MARK VICENTE: It's possible. I had a conversation with him in March that -- I had a conversation with him in March that my phone was recording calls, so it's possible at that point it was recording.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, do you know if it's legal under California law to record phone calls without telling the other person that they're being recorded?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
MR. AGNIFILO: Only if you know.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Has anyone since told that you tape recording someone when you're in California and not telling them they're being tape recorded is illegal?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you record Keith Raniere, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I believe my phone was -- was automatically recording, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you recording everybody?
MARK VICENTE: It's possible. It was an automated program. It's possible.
MR. AGNIFILO: So -- and this is on your cell phone?
MARK VICENTE: It was on a -- yes, an -- an Android, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so it's possible that all these phone calls you had with different people you recorded?
MARK VICENTE: No, because at a certain point I -- I think I erased the program and I switched phones from Android to iPhone.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, after the situation that you described earlier with India, where you brought the cakes and the pies and you left, you followup contact with Catherine Oxenberg, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told Ms. Oxenberg, in substance, things didn't go so well with India. She's not really interested in talking to me.
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, I think it was something like, you know, something to the effect of, you know, I went to have a conversation and I just got too scared.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's what you told Catherine?
MARK VICENTE: Something like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't bother trying to reach out to India again in that period of time, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I heard that she had called Raniere right after that, so I realized not an option anymore.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, on May 23rd, was that the date you resigned your position with NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: Can you say the date again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. I think May 23rd?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was May 22nd.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So May 22nd, May 23rd, that time period you resigned your position with NXIVM.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And were you having very regular phone contact with Sarah throughout May 2017; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I was.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were having very regular contact with Sarah's husband during May of 2017, correct?
MARK VICENTE: More toward the end.
Well, that's not actually true, because we were -- I just shot the pilot, so we were discussing a lot of the -- the editing needs.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your relationship with Sarah's husband?
MARK VICENTE: We were very good friends.
MR. AGNIFILO: And had you been good friends a long time?
MARK VICENTE: We became better friends over the years. But we were acquaintances at first and then we became friends.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think you said yesterday that your first contact with the FBI was May 26th, 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I don't remember the exact date, but it was towards the end of May.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Do you recall if on May 26th, 2017, you called or were called by Sarah 18 times?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know the number, but it's possible. It was a fair number of calls.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, why did you have so many conversations with Sarah on the same day that you called the FBI for the first time?
MARK VICENTE: I can -- so I can deduce it by the relationship of these two events, but I can't tell you for certain.
I'm --
MR. AGNIFILO: You wanted -- you wanted information from Sarah so when you spoke to the FBI, you would know what you're talking about.
MARK VICENTE: I wanted to be accurate.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you wanted to be accurate but with someone else's information.
MARK VICENTE: Well, I was not in that secret society, so I -- I couldn't offer my experience at that time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you with Sarah when you placed the -- let me back up.
Did you call the FBI on May 26th, or did they call you?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was actually both. I think I called and then they called me.
MR. AGNIFILO: And were you and Sarah together?
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: And whose idea was it for you to call, rather than Sarah to call the FBI?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall. I do recall that she was, at that point, very afraid.
I don't recall specifically.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell Sarah you were calling the FBI?
MARK VICENTE: I think I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is it possible that you called the FBI with Sarah's information without telling her?
MARK VICENTE: It seemed unlikely.
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't recall -- you don't have a specific recollection of telling Sarah, hey, I'm about to call the FBI with the information you gave me?
MARK VICENTE: I'm assuming I did, but I can't say to you I know absolutely for certain that I said those exact words and that's exactly what happened.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not talking about the exact words. My question is --
MARK VICENTE: The gist of those words.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. You can't recall.
MARK VICENTE: Again, I'm assuming that I said that.
MR. AGNIFILO: On the same day, May 26th, that you called the FBI for the first time and you spoke to Sarah all those times, you also spoke to Chris a number of times on the phone.
MARK VICENTE: Are we using that on that day?
MR. AGNIFILO: I am.
MARK VICENTE: Oh.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think it's on your list.
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall, but I do know I called her at some point.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And fair to say, by the time that you called the FBI on May 26th, 2017, you had spoken to Sarah about her experiences in DOS, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say by the time you called the FBI, on May 26th, 2017, you had spoken to Chris about her experiences, also true?
MARK VICENTE: If the phone records are indicating that I spoke to her that day, which I believe you have, then likely -- likely that was the conversation that happened.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. You spoke to the FBI again on -- and this is just a -- to back up, this the FBI in the Albany area, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Northern District, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: The Northern District FBI.
You spoke to the FBI, again Northern District, on May the 31st, 2017. That's the second time you spoke to them.
Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: I remember numerous calls. I don't remember the exact dates, but it's around about that time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you remember the same time that you called the FBI for the second time, you had 5 calls to or from Catherine Oxenberg, 11 calls with Sarah, and 4 calls with Sarah's husband, all on May 31st, 2017?
MARK VICENTE: That sounds consistent.
MR. AGNIFILO: And why were you talking to Sarah so many times, Catherine Oxenberg, and Sarah's husband, on the same day that you called the FBI for the second time?
MARK VICENTE: My recollection is there was a branding ceremony about to take place, and I wanted to prevent those women from going or help some of them to leave before they got branded.
And also I was trying to help Sarah get to the -- to the FBI to have a meeting.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just bear with me one second.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is it your recollection that you told the FBI that a branding ceremony was about to take place?
MARK VICENTE: I don't specifically recollect if I said that.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you 3500-MV-1.
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fairly short. It's a two-page document. I'm going to show you the first page and I will show you the second page and you will tell me.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Can you read that okay?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Just read it to yourself.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: That's the first page. I'm going to now show you the second page.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't tell the FBI a branding ceremony was about to happen?
MARK VICENTE: Based on that document, they didn't make any notation like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And June 2nd, 2017, you place a call and have a long conversation with someone named Frank Parlato?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us about that.
MARK VICENTE: I believe that, um, Catherine Oxenberg had spoken to him and she asked me if I would please talk to him. I had some reservations, and then I decided that I would call him and I would share with him everything thus far.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you have reservations speaking to Frank Parlato?
MARK VICENTE: He had worked for Raniere and Bronfman, and even though he had a blog, I wasn't sure it would be safe.
Also, I was concerned about the way that a friend of mine had been treated by him at the request of -- of Raniere and Clare Bronfman. So I was worried.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor might want to give the instruction that we've been giving for --
THE COURT: All right.
Members of the Jury, again, I will permit this witness to testify about what Frank Carlato said to him. I'm allowing this because these statements of Mr. Carlato are relevant to Mr. Vicente's state of mind and their effect on Mr. Vicente. They're not being offered for the truth of the statements themselves.
Therefore, you are to consider these statements ascribed to Mr. Carlato only to the extent that they had an impact on Mr. Vicente's state of mind, and their effect on Mr. Vicente, and not to the truth of the statements ascribed to Mr. Carlato.
All right, you may can ask you question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. And just so, Parlato is P-A-R-L-O-T-O.
THE COURT: Oh, P.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, yes. That's fine.
THE COURT: Yes. It's Parlato.
Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Did Frank Parlato say to you that had he a source in the NXIVM legal department?
MARK VICENTE: He did. I don't know if it was that first conversation. But at some point he said something like that to me, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remembering the meeting with the FBI on December 5th, 2017?
We're going forward a few months.
MARK VICENTE: Was that in -- was that in Los Angeles?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. The Los Angeles office?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you told the FBI that Parlato said he had a source in the legal department, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know if I said -- told them that.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I'm going to show you something, see if it refreshes your recollection.
I'm just going to show this to you. This is 3500-MV-5. And I'm going to show you the third page and it's highlighted on the top.
MARK VICENTE: I see it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling the FBI that Parlato told you that had he a source within the NXIVM legal department?
MARK VICENTE: I don't remember specifically telling them, but it is in the report. Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Parlato tell you that Kristin Keeffe -- that he pays Kristin Keeffe for information?
MARK VICENTE: At some point he did. I don't remember when that was exactly.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And regardless of when it was, what do you recall Frank Parlato telling you about the fact that he pays Kristin Keeffe for information?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: Sorry. The question with one more time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
What do you recall Frank Parlato saying to you about the fact that Frank Parlato pays Kristin Keeffe for information?
MARK VICENTE: Just that he had -- he told me that he had paid her for some information. I don't know if it was an ongoing thing, but he told me he had.
MR. AGNIFILO: Information about NXIVM and Raniere, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I don't think it was specific, but that's the assumption that I think I made.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at some point in 2017, you started speaking with Kristin Keeffe, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when did you start speaking with Kristin Keeffe?
MR. LESKO: Objection. May we approach?
MR. AGNIFILO: I return to my duty station.
THE COURT: I was trying to see how far you were going today.
Sidebar please.
(Continued on the next page.)
(The following occurred at sidebar.)
THE COURT: All right. Okay. What seems to be the trouble?
MR. LESKO: So Your Honor earlier called them state of mind statements that were --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. LESKO: -- admitted, were admitted for a very specific timeline because of the -- because in the witness' mind that led to him to resign from NXIVM and led him to report on DOS.
I think Mr. Agnifilo is using this as a back door in order to elicit hearsay for the truth of the matter asserted, and in particular, this hearsay was elicited or was stated to the witness after he resigned and after the Coach Summit occurred, where this branding ceremony -- which by the way, I don't believe ever occurred, was supposed to occur.
So statements that postdate the early June timeline, I think, are not admissible. They did not have an effect on Mr. Vicente in a way that led him to leave NXIVM, and that was the basis of the original ruling by Your Honor.
THE COURT: So where are we going here?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm -- in the interest of time, I'm not going to get into everything that he said with every person. I think it's fair to establish, especially on cross-examination. He testified affirmatively to things on cross-examination. He said he learned later from Kristin Keeffe this is witness is collecting information from various sources, and I think that's a fair thing for the jury to know.
Also, this is a witness who had sort of taken it upon himself to sort of, you know, I don't know, be the intrepid do-gooder in connection with bringing down NXIVM, and there's a process to that, and he spoke to a lot of people. I don't need to get into what he said to everybody. I just don't need to do that.
But I think it is important to establish who he had spoken to, because he's not just a mere bystander, he's an active agent, and he -- that's been his testimony.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, example, Mr. Parlato is a good one. He asked: Was Mr. Parlato paying a source in the legal department at NXIVM, Ms. Keeffe, to show that that actually happened.
He isn't offering that testimony to show that it had an effect on Mr. Vicente. He's trying to establish that there is a sort of boogie men out there, out to get this client, and that's the course of his defense. He's offering this as an --
THE COURT: All right. Let's get there.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to get there.
It's my premise. And I'll do it in the next three questions.
THE COURT: You have only three more questions?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just on this one topic.
THE COURT: Well, what else is there? You said an hour, and we're an hour and 15 minutes.
MR. AGNIFILO: My cross is still half the length of the direct, so I'm winding down, Judge. I really am. I'm winding down. I'm going to be done this morning certainly. Probably well before the morning break, so I'm winding down.
But there's a couple of questions I do want to ask, because I believe this witness wanted to make himself important, a prime source, you know, for certain things, outflanked Kristin Keeffe, possibly, because Kristin Keeffe was going to say things about him.
Three questions I'm going to ask to make that point and I'm going to move on.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, Mr. Agnifilo proffered the questions because once they're asked in open court in front of the jury --
THE COURT: It's done.
MR. AGNIFILO: So he advises the FBI that Kristin Keeffe was damaged. And I want to say: You said that to the FBI so that the FBI would listen to you, because Kristin Keeffe told you she was talking to the FBI also. And you wanted to control the narrative. That's it.
Those are the questions on Kristin Keeffe, Your Honor, and I'm stuck with his answer. That's not why I said it and that is his answer.
MR. LESKO: The problem is the FBI --
THE COURT: Could we calm down, please.
MR. LESKO: The FBI, I don't believe, told Mr. Vicente that Kristin Keeffe was talking to the FBI. So Mr. Agnifilo is trying to elicit the statement that Mr. Vicente knew that Kristin Keeffe was talking to the FBI, which came from Kristin Keeffe.
The truth of that matter asserted is to establish that that actually happened, and that's for the truth, that's not an effect on Mr. Vicente. That's trying to do a back-door attempt over hearsay to prove the truth of the matter asserted, Kristin Keeffe was talking to the FBI. That's what he's trying to do.
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't care whether she was or not. It's not for the truth. He believes she was, and he wanted to be the primary source of information to the FBI and -- and it's what he was thinking.
THE COURT: Well, what exact question are you going to ask?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to say: You had reason to believe that Kristin Keeffe was talking to the FBI. You told the FBI that Kristin Keeffe was damaged. You did that so that the FBI would listen more to you and less to other people.
THE COURT: Well, you can ask the question of: Do you know that she was talking to the FBI.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fine.
THE COURT: But not about a conversation with her.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fine. Fine.
THE COURT: In other words, it's not about a conversation with her: Did you believe this and -- and were you concerned about it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Fine. Very good.
THE COURT: That's the end of that, and we need to move this along. Because, you know, if -- let me just finish.
I don't want to keep reading this admonishment with every person that you want him to talk about, because then it looks like you're putting in their testimony through him. And once you reach a certain point, which we're now reaching, you know, you can bring them on your case and ask them questions on your case. I don't do this in trials.
I'm just telling you. This isn't a debate. I'm just telling you that I reached the point where I'm not going to do it anymore, because I -- you're taking advantage of something that you are trying --
MR. AGNIFILO: You're angry at me. They're all staring at me.
THE COURT: That's fine.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay. I don't mean --
THE COURT: They're talking to each other.
I just want to make a record here, just for the sake of it.
I don't like that. That is even worse. Just stop. These people are out there talking to each other. They're not looking at us.
MR. AGNIFILO: Judge, you've been very fair with me throughout the trial.
THE COURT: Well, I just got the impression now that you're trying to make a record about bias.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no, no.
THE COURT: And I just don't want that. I'm just saying that's the way it looks to the Court. It's not fair.
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't mean that.
THE COURT: Okay. Good. I'm glad to hear that.
All right. We're on to the next debate.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
THE COURT: Which shouldn't be a debate.
All I'm saying is I don't want to keep asking these questions -- making these charges to the jury, because at a certain point it looks like you're conducting your direct or bringing in evidence that you don't want to bring in on a case that you would have to bring in order to make your points to the jury about what that evidence will be.
I just -- you know, I've allowed this and it's fine, but there has to be an end point. That's all I'm saying.
MR. AGNIFILO: I agree. That's --
THE COURT: Good. That's wonderful. I'm very happy.
MR. AGNIFILO: There's a way to do it. I don't need to get into the substance of our statements.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: I like being on trial with Your Honor. I do. I think it's a very good experience for me.
THE COURT: Well, it's my pleasure.
MR. AGNIFILO: My pleasure, too.
THE COURT: With everybody, by the way.
MS. PENZA: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, I'm not going to limit that comment to just you.
MR. AGNIFILO: I didn't think you would.
MR. LESKO: Thanks to Mr. Agnifilo, we'll have a long time together.
MR. AGNIFILO: My cross is one third of the direct.
THE COURT: Stop. You've done your part.
MR. AGNIFILO: He's going to do an hour long.
THE COURT: All right. Okay. We're keeping people waiting.
COURT REPORTER: Sealed? Not sealed?
MR. LESKO: It doesn't --
THE COURT: Not sealed.
(In open court; Jury present.)
THE COURT: All right. You may continue your cross-examination.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Thank you, Judge.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall telling the FBI that Kristin Keeffe was damaged?
MARK VICENTE: Not specifically. It's possible.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you -- you were talking to the FBI on a fairly regular basis, correct?
MARK VICENTE: With the Northern District, not that much.
MR. AGNIFILO: But then with the FBI here in Brooklyn more so, correct?
MARK VICENTE: More with Brooklyn than the Northern District.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And is it fair to say you wanted to be an ongoing information source to the FBI on the terms of what you knew and what your experience was, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I wouldn't characterize it that way.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you concerned -- did you believe that Kristin Keeffe was talking to the FBI as well?
MARK VICENTE: Was I -- sorry. One more time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
Were you concerned that Kristin Keeffe was speaking to the FBI?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall being concerned about that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So my question is you didn't tell the FBI that she was damaged so that they would be less likely or more likely to believe her?
MARK VICENTE: I'm sorry. I don't know how to answer that question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. That's fine.
You had -- and I'm not going to get into the content of these conversations -- you had ongoing conversations with Frank Parlato, correct?
MARK VICENTE: For some time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. You and he would speak on a daily basis sometimes on a weekly basis, but you spoke very, very often in -- in and around June and July of 2017; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: June and July -- yes. I don't know if it was every day, but, you know, probably once a week at least.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall sometimes you would call Frank Parlato four or five times in a day?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall, but if you have my phone records, then you could probably tell.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you recall speaking to him regularly about -- about these matters; DOS and related matters, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were having fairly regular conversations with Catherine Oxenberg during this same period of time, not getting into the substance of discussions, you were just speaking to her on a regular basis, correct?
MARK VICENTE: During that time, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. At some point did you start using the email address truthteller18?
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever have a Hushmail account?
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when did you get a Hushmail account?
MARK VICENTE: It may have been July.
MR. AGNIFILO: And why did you get a Hushmail account?
MARK VICENTE: Because of the private investigators I believed were being hired to track me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so you thought NXIVM was hiring private investigators to track you?
MARK VICENTE: Absolutely.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were your parents spies?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Are you objecting to that question?
MR. LESKO: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell people that you parents were spies?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You thought were you being followed, investigated, spied on, by NXIVM investigators?
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: At some only point in July you called a filmmaker named Karim, correct?
MARK VICENTE: July?
MR. AGNIFILO: July 26th.
MARK VICENTE: Yeah. Probably. It's possible, yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you call Karim?
MARK VICENTE: I don't remember specifically why on that -- on that day. Karim and his wife were living in Los Angeles at the time. I don't recall the specific content of conversation.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say throughout August you had many, many phone conversations with Karim?
MARK VICENTE: Likely.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what were -- what subject matters were you and Karim talking about?
MARK VICENTE: About --
MR. LESKO: Objection.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll ask a different question.
MR. AGNIFILO: You wanted to make a film, right?
MARK VICENTE: Not necessarily at that point.
MR. AGNIFILO: So why were you calling a filmmaker?
MARK VICENTE: Well, at that point he was somebody that actually, I believe, understood, some of what I was struggling with.
MR. AGNIFILO: And were you friends with him?
MARK VICENTE: I had been friends -- I mean, I was friends with his wife first, and then over the years I became friends with him.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you calling him as a friend or were you calling him as a filmmaker?
MARK VICENTE: In July -- it may have been both.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you -- you had -- I mean, when was the last time you spoke to him? Before you called him on July 26th, when the last time you spoke to Karim?
MARK VICENTE: May have been earlier in the year. I was trying to help him enroll their children in Rainbow.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were trying to enroll their children in Rainbow?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, myself and Michel Chernitzky.
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point you and Karim start talking about a film project, right?
MARK VICENTE: There was discussions about, you know, just documenting. There was no -- there was no clear idea of what would happen.
Part of what I was concerned about was trying to make sure that I document my -- my efforts, as I said before, because I believe that things may be turned around on me at some point.
MR. AGNIFILO: And at some point you started going around with a film crew, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Well, there was a time in March where -- yeah, there was a film crew with me and in Vermont, and then also, I believe, in Clifton Park.
THE COURT: I'm sorry. March of what year?
MR. AGNIFILO: 2018.
MARK VICENTE: 2018.
THE COURT: Now in 2018?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
THE COURT: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall writing a lengthy email on March 10th, 2018, to a number of people who were formally in NXIVM ESP?
MARK VICENTE: Is it the one that starts with "grab a glass of wine"?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's the one.
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall saying in that email that you have now spoken to over 20 women who were Keith Raniere's lovers, slaves.
Do you remember saying that in the email?
MARK VICENTE: I believe I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not going to get into what you said to each one, do you remember the 20 women -- say over 20 women -- that you spoke to?
MARK VICENTE: It would take me some time to reconstruct.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you believe you had spoken to over -- as of the time you wrote this email on March the 10th, 2018, you had spoken to over 20 women who were Keith Raniere's lovers and slaves or slaves, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's what I believed.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember writing that these 20 women are all talking to each other and comparing notes?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that true, that these women --
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: I'm sorry.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you -- when wrote that these 20 women are talking to each other and comparing notes, why did you write that?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You agree with me that you wrote that, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I believe I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: And was that true?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: You had wrote what you believed to be the truth, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And because you, in fact, had spoken to over 20 women at that point it time, correct?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not asking about the letter. I'm just asking --
MR. AGNIFILO: At that point in time, had you spoken with over 20 women?
THE COURT: You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: I believe I had.
MR. AGNIFILO: And to your knowledge, were they comparing notes?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote that they were comparing notes. Do you agree with me?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall in this long email referencing Nancy Salzman and saying that you had to instruct the video department to remove unkind comments that Nancy Salzman made?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that true, that you had to -- you instructed video department to remove comments because Nancy Salzman had made unkind comments?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: In the email that you sent -- who did you send this email to, by the way?
MARK VICENTE: I sent it to some of my -- the people I cared about in the lower -- lower ranks.
MR. AGNIFILO: You make specific reference to India. Do you recall making specific reference to India and saying something along the lines of: This abuse is actually the abuser thing sounds perfectly reasonable to you.
Do you remember writing that?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's because as of this time, that being March the 10th, 2018, India still had not come around. She was still loyal to NXIVM, correct?
MARK VICENTE: She -- I believe she was still a true believer.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what do you mean by true believer is that she chose to remain aligned with NXIVM, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Little more than that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall that on March 27th, 2018, so 17 days after you send this email where you reference India, you and a film crew went to where India worked and were looking to film her at work.
MARK VICENTE: I -- we were two blocks away. We were not looking to film her at work.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember being directly across the street from where she worked with you and a film crew and a movie camera?
MARK VICENTE: Two blocks away, not a movie camera.
MR. AGNIFILO: What kind of camera?
MARK VICENTE: Um, just give me a moment.
MR. AGNIFILO: Something you put on your shoulder, right?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was a Sony FS7.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's a big camera that you kind of can hold like this, or put on your shoulder-type thing?
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, it's like -- it's like a lower-end video camera.
MR. AGNIFILO: And there was -- there was yourself. There was your wife, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: There was someone named Clare, right?
MARK VICENTE: Don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, Clare is not the Clare that we've been talking about. There's a Clare who's working on this HBO project, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I believe so, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So she's part of the film crew, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it was yourself, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Yes, I was there.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know whether India was filming you?
MARK VICENTE: Do I know if I -- I'm sorry. Do you want to tell me? I don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: So do you recall if you were wearing a hat, a baseball hat?
MARK VICENTE: I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you wear baseball hats sometimes?
MARK VICENTE: If my hair's a mess, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And where were you exactly in relation to where India worked?
MARK VICENTE: Two blocks from the restaurant.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you know she worked in a restaurant, right?
MARK VICENTE: That much I heard.
MR. AGNIFILO: And why were you two blocks away from India's restaurant?
MARK VICENTE: To not be near the restaurant.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you looking to shoot India?
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were not looking to film India?
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you Defense Exhibit 341.
MR. AGNIFILO: 341.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want you to take a look at that. I'll zoom in a little bit for you.
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recognize the people?
MARK VICENTE: I think the first, second from the right, I think is my wife. Um, I think -- I think it's me to the right, but it's very hard for me to really tell. It looks like a cameraman, third from the right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know his name?
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, we're going to object.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me ask you this -- I'll ask another question.
Does this refresh your recollection about this event?
MARK VICENTE: Not the -- not this photo so much, but I do recollect the event.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So tell us about the event.
MARK VICENTE: This I remember was the last-ditch attempt to try to get India to consider maybe going to the authorities and, you know, telling them what she knew.
My understanding at this point is she was still extremely loyal to the entire structure. And my wife went to talk -- went to try to talk to her in the restaurant, to ask her to please just consider that maybe this entire thing is not harmless, as it's -- as she's suggesting it is.
I believe that she wasn't there.
MR. AGNIFILO: How do you know from two blocks away that she wasn't there?
MARK VICENTE: Well, because of the sequence of events. When my wife came back, she said that she wasn't there.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what's the role of the camera and the film crew in this process?
MARK VICENTE: To document the effort.
MR. AGNIFILO: So what you were trying to do is you were furthering your film project by trying to get India on tape?
MARK VICENTE: Not my film project.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were trying to further a film project where you and your wife, with a cameraman and someone who's making an HBO film, is trying to further a film project, right?
MARK VICENTE: Not to be argumentative, but not an HBO project at that point.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was it then?
MARK VICENTE: It was just an independent thing at that point.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you wanted footage. You wanted footage of India and you knew India didn't want to be on tape. You knew that, didn't you?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I don't think that -- I don't think anyone wanted footage of India. I thought the camera stayed there. And I believe that my wife went on her own to the restaurant.
MR. AGNIFILO: You agree with me about that, at one point your wife and you and Clare from the film crew and cameraman, were all together in a group. At one point in time that's where you were all were, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, two blocks away from Plantmade, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: Plantmade?
MARK VICENTE: I think it's Plantmade, was the restaurant.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you -- how did you and the film crew get near Plant Made where India was working?
MARK VICENTE: Do you mean physically?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, did you take a taxi together? Did you meet there?
MARK VICENTE: I don't -- I mean, I think we walked.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you knew or you hoped that India would be at work that day.
MARK VICENTE: Um, well, we hoped that she would be so my wife could maybe reason with her.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the last time you had any contact with India was when you were at her house delivering the pies or cakes all those months earlier, telling her that this was dangerous and you were afraid -- you were afraid and she should be afraid, right? You hadn't had any contact with her in between.
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you think India would welcome the film crew showing up near her work?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you care whether India would welcome the film crew showing up near her work?
MARK VICENTE: Well, two things. I don't believe the camera actually went to the restaurant. I think it held back.
As for the second question, do you have the second -- ask the question again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
Did you think that India would welcome the film crew being near her restaurant where she's working?
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
So as I said, I don't believe the camera did go there. But I believe at that point that she was in a -- in a, almost a trance like situation, and then I thought that her safety was a very high priority.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so you and the film crew were going to save her?
MARK VICENTE: No. I think -- I know that Bonnie wanted to try and to talk to her.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. At some point -- and you have made reference to this a few times, both on direct and now on cross, you and the film crew went to Vermont to a film festival, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And why did you go to Vermont to a film festival?
MARK VICENTE: I was trying to -- I had been trying to reason with the filmmaker about continuing to promote the film. And I was hoping to -- to talk to him as well in person.
MR. AGNIFILO: What filmmaker?
MARK VICENTE: Which filmmaker?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
MARK VICENTE: Alessandro Molatore.
MR. AGNIFILO: There was a film being shown at the Green Mountain Film Festival in March of 2018 called My Tourette's, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
May we approach?
THE COURT: I'll sustain. Let's keep going.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, this is --
MR. AGNIFILO: You tried to gain access --
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll ask another question.
MR. AGNIFILO: You tried to gain access to the screening of My Tourette's that was being shown at the Pavilion Auditorium in Montpelier, Vermont at 2:30.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
MR. AGNIFILO: Isn't that why you were there?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why were you in Vermont? And what did you do in Vermont?