3.Mark Vicente — Cross/Redirect/Recross (Part 10)
474 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Mr. Vicente.
MARK VICENTE: Good morning.
MR. AGNIFILO: I have five or ten more minutes of questions and then I'll be done.
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: When we left off, we were talking about you going to Vermont with the film crew. All I want to know is I just want to know what you and the folks in the film crew did when you got to Vermont. Is it fair to say that the camera was rolling while you were there for most of the time?
MARK VICENTE: For some of the time, but, I mean, I recall when I went to the theater, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And is it fair to say at one point you and the film crew tried to gain access to a theater?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall that the security people at the theater were brought into the situation?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. We were asked to leave.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's because the people at the theater didn't want you and the film crew with a running camera to be inside the venue; is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: I believe it was because the film festival wanted to honor the director's wishes, and the director's wishes were that we leave. So the film festival said, We'd like you to leave.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And this is the Green Mountain Film Festival, does that sound right?
MARK VICENTE: I believe.
MR. AGNIFILO: In Montpelier, Vermont?
MARK VICENTE: In -- maybe Burlington.
MR. AGNIFILO: Burlington, all right.
And it's in the spring of each year; does that sound right?
MARK VICENTE: I actually never heard of the festival before, but I don't know if it's every year. But it was that year.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you went up to this film festival specifically because you -- and we're not going to get into specifics, there's a specific movie that you wanted to gain access to?
THE COURT: That's a yes-or-no question.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so although this is not a film festival you were familiar with, you and the film crew made the trip to Vermont for that specific reason?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, okay.
Now, at one point I think you said that this film project ended up -- and I might be using the wrong term, so work with me -- ended up being taken over by HBO, right?
MARK VICENTE: (No audible response.)
MR. AGNIFILO: The film project became an HBO project?
MARK VICENTE: Oh, sorry. You're talking about a different project now, I understand?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, sir.
MARK VICENTE: The one in Vermont.
MR. AGNIFILO: Oh, that was a different one?
MARK VICENTE: The screening in Vermont.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no, no. Let me break it down.
The movie in Vermont is something different. We're not talking about that.
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm talking about you guys, you and the fill crew travelling to Vermont.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's part of the project that ended up being the HBO project?
MARK VICENTE: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that was the same personnel that you were saying were two blocks away from India's work, those are all the same people?
MARK VICENTE: (No audible response.)
MR. AGNIFILO: It's Clare and Karim, right, those two?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe -- I don't believe Karim was there.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no, but Clare was there?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MARK VICENTE: She was definitely in Vermont.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MARK VICENTE: I'm not sure when you...
MR. AGNIFILO: And Clare is with Karim in the same project, right? They're working together?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So and at the time when you were in Vermont, that was not yet an HBO project, but it became one later, is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: She very recently, I think so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
You still are in contact with them, correct?
MARK VICENTE: With?
MR. AGNIFILO: Clare and Karim and all them?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I spoke to Karim like two, two and a half weeks ago.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you even traveled with some of them; is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: To Vermont, yes. And to New York, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And more recently you were in Utah?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I was in Utah in January.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you traveled by plane from Salt Lake City to LA, you, Bonnie and Clare, right?
MARK VICENTE: I think we traveled back together. I think on the way there it was just my wife and I.
MR. AGNIFILO: So did you have plans on meeting with Clare at -- so this is the film festival in Utah, correct?
MARK VICENTE: The Sundance Film Festival.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And did you have plans to meet with Clare at the film festival or did you just happen to run into each other?
MARK VICENTE: Not necessarily. We tend to go every year, and she was there that year as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you moved back to LA, you, Bonnie, and Clare, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I think so -- I -- I think we flew back together. We actually walked past in an airport.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you were on the plane together?
MARK VICENTE: Again, I -- I know -- I know my wife and I were definitely on the plane, but I'm not sure exactly whether Clare was on the plane.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, what is your -- do you have any book deals as we sit here today?
MARK VICENTE: I do not.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you spoken to anybody about having a book deal?
MARK VICENTE: I did in January 2018 and I decided not to.
MR. AGNIFILO: What, if any, movie deals do you have, other than the thing that's now an HBO project?
MARK VICENTE: I have nothing.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just the HBO project?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what is your current involvement in the HBO project?
MARK VICENTE: Subject.
MR. AGNIFILO: Subject meaning you're -- you're expected to be in the movie?
MARK VICENTE: I think so, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And is it fair to say you expect to play the role of someone who is trying to do good things in the movie, positive things and official things?
MARK VICENTE: I don't expect to play a role. I -- I've done what I've done. Some of that has been captured.
MR. AGNIFILO: You feel you've done important work in -- I want to pick the exact right words.
You feel that you've done the right thing in coming forward with the situation with NXIVM, correct?
MARK VICENTE: One more time.
MR. AGNIFILO: You feel that you have done the right thing in coming forward with the situation, as you understand it to be concerning NXIVM, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that is going to be depicted in the film, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I think my sense is many things might be depicted. Maybe that's part of it. You know, I don't know for sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you know you're going to be -- you're on camera. I mean, you're not -- you're a filmmaker by trade, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And in this capacity you're no longer a filmmaker, you're on the other side of the lens, as they say, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're sort of an active agent in the movie. You're not an actor for this, it's not fiction. But you're in the movie as a figure, as Mark Vicente, right?
MARK VICENTE: Depending on what they choose. I'm in -- I'm in there if that they do.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you have any input into that?
MARK VICENTE: I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you've relinquished you said in the beginning you had a certain amount of control?
MARK VICENTE: Well, there was an understanding well, maybe I could be involved and that changed.
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that partly because of your role in this trial?
MARK VICENTE: No. It's -- yes, I mean -- you can't -- this is my understanding, you -- you can't make a -- a documentary where you have a subject who's involved in something that's also making creative decisions. It's basically -- journalism.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Is it fair to say that throughout your life, you've been looking to do important things; is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: I would say that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you joined Ramtha, you wanted to do important things there, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you joined NXIVM, you wanted to do important things there, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, we went through finances yesterday. Do you recall in 2017 you only made about $14,000 in income from NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: (No audible response.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, I know it's only a partial year because you left in May.
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you think you made more than that?
MARK VICENTE: I thought I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you think you made?
MARK VICENTE: Not as -- not as much as previous years, but -- oh, my tax year is October to October. My corporate tax year is October to October, so that would be -- yeah, my -- my -- that corporation wasn't a calendar year.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said a few times on direct and cross-examination -- let me ask you a more specific question.
When I was asking about Ramtha --
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: -- and I asked if you really thought that this woman was channelling a 35,000-year-old warrior, you felt it was true at that time?
MR. LESKO: Object.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: At the time, yes, I thought it was possible.
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't think it's true anymore, do you?
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you thought it was true through 2004, but you don't think it's true anymore?
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: And once upon a time you thought NXIVM was wonderful, didn't you?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you don't think so anymore?
MARK VICENTE: I think there are many wonderful people. But I think there's some problems.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I have nothing else.
THE COURT: Very well.
Redirect?
MR. LESKO: Yes, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: Good afternoon, Mr. Vicente.
MARK VICENTE: Good afternoon.
MR. LESKO: I'll try to be brief.
You were asked many questions about this HBO documentary film by defense counsel.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: So --
THE COURT: Keep your voice up, please.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. LESKO: And does that documentary film project involve the interview of many people?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know all the people involved. I'm assuming some people for sure.
MR. LESKO: Do you know if Mr. Agnifilo's been interviewed?
MARK VICENTE: I've heard a rumor. I can't confirm it, but I heard a rumor.
MR. LESKO: And what did -- you're a documentary filmmaker, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I'm a filmmaker, and at times I've made documentaries.
MR. LESKO: And some of the documentaries that you've made involve injustice?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. And actually some of the -- some of the narrative films that I was involved in, in Africa were to do with apartheid stories about Nelson Mandela. So it's been a strong theme in my life.
MR. LESKO: How do you view this HBO documentary of NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: My hope is that it gives people some dignity coming out. I think that this is a very difficult situation for a great many people. One of my deep concerns about all the press has been that honestly, I'm tired of seeing, you know, my name and the word "sex cult next" to it. And I think that that's the case for many of the women as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to object to this, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Let's move on.
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: So let's talk a bit -- you were asked many, many questions about contacting the FBI in May of 2017 and conferences with Sarah?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Among others?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Why did you contact the FBI in May of 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I believed that what I was gathering information about involved illegal activities. I believed that the NXIVM and all the organizations were, in essence, a cover for something far more nefarious, and I began approaching law enforcement, A, to try to help these women that I believed were in a bad situation.
And then, B, to hopefully try to uncover, you know, what was going on, on a larger scale. So I approached many more people than just the FBI.
MR. LESKO: And as part of your attempts to contact the FBI, did you attempt to facilitate their meeting with anyone?
MARK VICENTE: I did, yes.
MR. LESKO: Who?
MARK VICENTE: Meeting with -- to begin with, Sarah and Sally, and then a number of the other women that I knew of that were in DOS -- just left DOS.
MR. LESKO: So let me get this right. You were talking to the FBI about meeting with Sarah and Sally?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And were you also talking to Sarah and Sally about meeting with the FBI?
MARK VICENTE: I was.
MR. LESKO: And were those conversations by telephone?
MARK VICENTE: They were, yes.
MR. LESKO: And did they happen at the time period we've been discussing, the May 2017 time period?
MARK VICENTE: Toward the end of May, yes.
MR. LESKO: Did that explain the frequent conversations --
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to object. It's still his witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
Rephrase your question.
BY MR. LESKO:
MR. LESKO: I think Mr. Agnifilo suggested that on one day he had 18 phone conversations with Sarah. Do you have an explanation as to why you may have had that much contact with Sarah?
MARK VICENTE: Because I had to be very clear on what I told the FBI. My thought was that they didn't want, you know, just hysteria. They wanted some clear details.
MR. LESKO: Did Sarah and Sally, in fact, meet with the FBI?
MARK VICENTE: They did.
MR. LESKO: Now, Mr. Agnifilo asked you about a conversation with India. I believe it was at the event where you brought the cake or pies?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And he was very precise. In fact, it seemed like he quoted you and observed your tone. How would he know that?
MARK VICENTE: I imagine --
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: To the answer?
MR. AGNIFILO: No. How would I know that. I'm not sure...
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. LESKO: Do you have an understanding as to how defense counsel would know exactly what you said when you had this conversation with India?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding is that she called Raniere or her master straightaway to tell them what happened.
MR. LESKO: So this photograph that you were shown --
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, if we could just show this to the witness?
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
MR. LESKO: Showing the Government's 341.
THE COURT: I think it's -- is it Defense?
MR. LESKO: I mean Defense 341. I apologize.
MR. LESKO: That photograph, it's taken of you in a group; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And where does it appear to be taken from?
MARK VICENTE: From inside some kind of structure.
MR. LESKO: Is that through a window?
MARK VICENTE: It -- I think so. I also see a fence. I'm not sure if it's the metal embedded in the window or if it's just a fence.
MR. LESKO: It's across the street from you, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And do you know who took that photograph?
MARK VICENTE: I don't. Mr. Agnifilo suggested that it was India.
MR. LESKO: So you were asked if you thought you were being spied upon. You were being spied upon, right?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. LESKO: I mean, that's what this photograph shows; is that correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Now, you were asked questions by defense counsel about this moment in the summer of 2016 where your wife had a moment of enlightenment. Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I remember him saying that, yes.
MR. LESKO: And he asked you many questions about her interactions with the defendant about the enlightenment?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Do you recall discussions between your wife and the defendant about a tree?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Explain the tree discussion.
MARK VICENTE: My understanding was that they took a walk one night very late, like early morning, and he was telling her that her issue was her boundaries, she had too many boundaries and too many concerns about things. And he wanted her to run towards a tree and run into it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I object and ask that it be stricken.
THE COURT: Let's see where it goes.
MR. LESKO: Did the discussion involve a puddle?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: What was said?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding was that he said to her to lick the puddle as part of this, you know, overcoming boundaries and getting past, you know, being hung up about stuff.
MR. LESKO: And was this discussion in the context of the defendant mentoring your wife?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: You talked -- you were asked questions about Ramtha, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Did the defendant know about your involvement with Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: He did. He -- when -- when we first met, he spent an inordinate amount of time teasing me about it and then told me that he needed to deprogram me from my mystical beliefs.
MR. LESKO: Did Nancy Salzman know about your involvement with Ramtha?
MARK VICENTE: She did. She was also part of the team to deprogram me.
MR. LESKO: So you were asked a number of questions about your trips to Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And do you recall one of those trips involving a VIP intensive?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I think it was the second one.
MR. LESKO: And what was the subject matter of that intensive?
MARK VICENTE: I believe it was the XOSO program and the reference program were being taught to some VIPs.
MR. LESKO: And if you could, describe the type of VIPs that attended that program.
MARK VICENTE: Exceptionally wealthy. I don't recall the exact families, but they were very prestigious families from Europe.
MR. LESKO: Any members of royalty?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Yes. I think one of them was in the, like, royalty lineage of some kind.
MR. LESKO: Did any of those participants complain about the program?
MARK VICENTE: They did. They complained about the food. They complained about the cost, and they said that the -- the program itself wasn't worth the money. They complained about the accommodations. There were issues with the accommodations as well.
MR. LESKO: At some point were you asked to do anything regarding those complaints?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Clare Bronfman called me and said, Please ask the specific person to leave. And being the owner of this facility, I said okay. So I went to talk to the person and asked them to leave, and it blew up pretty badly.
MR. LESKO: What do you mean?
MARK VICENTE: They began, you know, screaming at me and called me, you know, cold and callous and unfeeling, and there was a lot of fallout for a long time.
MR. LESKO: Was anyone removed?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. One person, I believe, left the next day or maybe actually two, I'm sorry, left the next day.
MR. LESKO: Did you have an altercation with Nancy Salzman at this same -- in connection with this same program?
MARK VICENTE: Not that -- or we did have an altercation in Fiji, but it wasn't at that time. I think it was a different trip.
MR. LESKO: Another trip?
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. LESKO: So discuss the altercation you had with Nancy Salzman.
MARK VICENTE: It was something at the airport. She -- for some reason I can't figure out, she suddenly felt -- seemed insecure about something and in the sort of terminal area, you know, where you put your bags in, she just began screaming at me saying basically, you know, you're the head of Society of Protectors. What kind of man are you? You can't even take care of basic things.
I'm struggling with this-- it was a whole diatribe and then eventually a number of her staff, you know, went to her and calmed her down.
MR. LESKO: Okay. I'm showing you what has been admitted as Government -- I mean, pardon me, Defendant's 328. This is, I believe, the third page --
THE COURT: This is admitted?
MR. LESKO: This is admitted, yes.
MR. LESKO: This is the third page. Do you recognize the people in that photograph?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. LESKO: Any of them DOS slaves?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Could you identify -- is there one or more -- how many DOS slaves?
MARK VICENTE: I think there were five.
MR. LESKO: Could you draw circles around the DOS slaves and identify them, please.
MARK VICENTE: (Witness complies.) I'm sorry, fat circle.
MR. LESKO: I'll correct it. You can go a little bigger.
Go ahead.
MARK VICENTE: Alejandra.
MR. LESKO: Alejandra.
Okay. And that's the far right photograph in a black bathing suit?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Okay.
MARK VICENTE: Sahajo.
MR. LESKO: Sahaka [phonetic]?
MARK VICENTE: Sahajo.
MR. LESKO: Sahajo.
And that's immediately to the left of the woman in the black bathing suit?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Okay.
MARK VICENTE: Danielle.
MR. LESKO: She's basically the only person in the front row of the photograph?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
Rebecca.
MR. LESKO: Rebecca. That's the back row, second -- second from the left; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. LESKO: Okay.
MARK VICENTE: The person I thought might be -- I'm not entirely certain.
MR. LESKO: Okay. So you're certain about these four?
MARK VICENTE: I'm pretty certain, yes.
MR. LESKO: Now could you draw a circle around Danielle?
MARK VICENTE: (Witness complies.)
MR. LESKO: What role did Danielle have in DOS?
MARK VICENTE: I believe that she was a -- a -- a slave and a master, and that she was the person that actually did the branding ceremonies.
MR. LESKO: So she was the brander?
MARK VICENTE: She was the brander.
MR. LESKO: You were asked questions about the film, the documentary film that you did in Mexico?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Okay. You got in trouble as a result of that film; isn't that right?
MARK VICENTE: Can you be more specific? I got in trouble a few --
MR. LESKO: You were accused --
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, leading.
MR. LESKO: Were you accused of anything?
THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
MR. LESKO: Well, was there an issue regarding proper tribute?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, yes.
MR. LESKO: What was the issue?
MARK VICENTE: The issue was that according to some of the high ranks, that I wasn't -- I'm using the term loosely, wasn't making a big enough deal about him and I wasn't, you know, propping him up as the most important person in the film. I had several arguments saying, well, you know, by his own admission, he's not Mexican. He's kind of like this -- you know, this white guy who's like, you know, in charge of the whole philosophy. It seems kind of weird. It be good to -- to follow a lot more of the Mexicans and tell that story.
And then also Raniere had said to me at one point, you know, why don't you just put yourself in as well. And I said, well, I -- I don't think that's appropriate. He said, well, actually you're the one that's experiencing the story, why don't you just put yourself in it? And I was like, okay.
Then I got a lot of flak from the upper ranks saying you're trying to make a big deal of yourself. You're trying to more important than, you know, Keith. And I was like seriously, that's not what I am trying to do. I'm just trying to tell a compelling story.
MR. LESKO: Okay. You were asked a number of questions about feedback. Do you remember those on cross-examination?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And I think you testified that, correct me if I'm wrong, NXIVM members would give themselves feedback numbers on certain issues; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: At the very beginning when you came in as a white, you had a number. I don't recall if there would be numbers once you were of rank.
MR. LESKO: So do you have a different perspective now on feedback in NXIVM as opposed to this perspective you had when you were involved in NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. LESKO: What is your perspective on feedback now?
MARK VICENTE: Well, the whole system, I think, is designed to make you drop your boundaries. Like in other words, if you're told something, instead of like fighting it, you know, like a normal person would if they think something is, you know, not just, to basically take the hit. So I feel like the whole system was designed to basically if you're truly involved, you will take any hit that comes to you, and you won't complain and you will listen to it. In essence, debilitating your ability to have a sense of self and a sense of identity, a sense of agency about, you know, what you want to do in your life.
MR. LESKO: Did the defendant ever give feedback?
MARK VICENTE: He did.
MR. LESKO: Okay. Was receiving feedback from the defendant optional or was it mandatory?
MARK VICENTE: It was never written down as mandatory. But God forbid you argued. And I certainly got feedback.
MR. LESKO: You received feedback from the defendant?
MARK VICENTE: Oh, yes.
MR. LESKO: This letter to the District Attorney regarding Barbara Bouchey, you were asked questions about that letter --
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: -- do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Did anyone ask or direct you to send that letter?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. There was a campaign going on at that time of -- of a number of people sending letters. I recall -- I think there was a number of people together that were crafting a letter, but it was -- I don't recall that Raniere or -- or -- or Nancy Salzman specifically said, Please write a letter to defend me. It was more the -- the upper ranks that said, you know, we must edify them. You know, we must show the world who they really are.
And there was a certain kind of pressure to do these things. It would look really bad as a member of a high ranking to say, you know what, I'm not going send this letter. That would be very poor form.
MR. LESKO: And this calculation of damages to the business caused by Barbara Bouchey's leaving, were you asked to do that?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall that I made the calculation necessarily. My general recollection is we were told, you know, this is likely the kind of damages. When I look back at it, I don't know how I would have calculated that. But these kinds of letter writing campaigns involved sort of form bullet points that you needed to hit. So you wouldn't -- somebody wouldn't give you the entire spectrum. They might say these are the points you have to hit in your letter, you know, then write it in your style.
MR. LESKO: You were asked questions about Rainbow Cultural Garden. Do you remember those?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Okay. And did some of the girls from the LeBaron community in Mexico participate in Rainbow Cultural Gardens?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Some of them were MDSs or maybe just nannies, I'm not certain, but some of them were MDSs. That's the, I think, multidisciplinary specialists, fancy name for a nanny.
THE COURT: Fancy name for what?
MARK VICENTE: Fancy name for a nanny.
MR. LESKO: And did MDSs or nannies, in essence, run the program?
MARK VICENTE: They would be the arms and legs of the program. Loreta Garza ran the program and ran the company under the mentorship of Raniere.
MR. LESKO: All right. And I think you explained that part of the program involved teaching the children languages; is that correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. And also, you know, playing, you know, music from that country, eating food from that country, you know, being surrounded by that culture as much as possible.
MR. LESKO: Did children participate in Rainbow Cultural Gardens in lieu of going to school?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding.
MR. LESKO: So they didn't go to school, they went to Rainbow Culture Gardens?
MARK VICENTE: That is my understanding.
MR. LESKO: Okay. And the MDSs were the arms and legs, they were the daily --
MARK VICENTE: Yes. They were the people that came and spent a certain number of hours per day with the children.
MR. LESKO: And some of these MDSs were girls from the polygamous LeBaron community, the Mormons who left Utah who went to Mexico?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Did any of these MDSs -- do you know if they were certified or qualified to teach children?
MARK VICENTE: They were not.
MR. LESKO: And were they certified or qualified to teach languages?
MARK VICENTE: They were not.
MR. LESKO: Was a screening process used to select these MDS instructors?
MARK VICENTE: The only process I remember is that Loreta Garza would show Raniere pictures of them, and he would suggest who should or shouldn't be allowed in.
MR. LESKO: Were any of these MDSs screened for prior sex offenses?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe so.
MR. LESKO: You were asked questions about and we played the audiotape where you're discussing SOP with the defendant and others. Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And you discussed collateral?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: The collateral that was used in SOP, was it the money put up in exchange for enrollments; is that how that was used?
MARK VICENTE: That is correct, yes.
MR. LESKO: And I think you mentioned the release of collateral in SOP. Was it the release of the money, is that what you were referring to?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. In essence, if you didn't do the thing you said you would do, the money that you paid into the system would now be taken. You would not be able to get it back.
MR. LESKO: You indicated on cross-examination that you wore told SOP was a force for good. Has your understanding of SOP changed since then?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Could you explain?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I think there's a number of things. I think it's more of a -- a force of kind of enforcement I think, that the -- the men were abusive to the women. I think that it was -- even though it was codified into an educational thing and they were just following orders, you know, I still think it wasn't good for the women.
I also think it made the men -- because the men were constantly in some ways teased for not being, you know, man enough. You know, Raniere was seen as the ultimate man and then we were, in essence, not man enough. So there was a certain ridiculing of the men as well.
And then the constant readiness thing, you know, keep everyone on standby for whatever. To me it's almost like it was programming people to just be ready for whatever, you know. And because so often there was nothing to do except just answer ready, the few times that there was actually a mission, you know, the guys were very excited about doing it. And my concern later was, you know, what could people be asked to do?
MR. LESKO: I'm going show you what has been admitted as Government's 1797R. And I'm going to position it just like Mr. Agnifilo did when he showed it to you, the top half.
Do you remember looking at this? This is your memo. Do you recall this?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: The memo about the videotape editing project?
MARK VICENTE: The legal project, yes.
MR. LESKO: So now I'm going show you the part you weren't shown, the second part of the memo. Under the heading Monday or Tuesday, what's the first bullet?
MARK VICENTE: The first bullet is the duplication of tapes Keith has asked me for.
MR. LESKO: Okay. Is there any uncertainty in your mind as to what the bullet is referring to; what -- what videotape alteration project that bullet's referring to?
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. LESKO: What is that referring to?
MARK VICENTE: It's refers to the extraction of certain things from the intensive tapes to be handed over and what I thought was, you know, a protective patent-type case to later being told it was part of discovery for an actual case.
MR. LESKO: So it involved a case?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: What is your interpretation of a case?
MARK VICENTE: Well, what I find interesting was basically that's -- that the -- there was a legal wrangling going on between NXIVM, and I think it is Rick Ross, Stephanie Franco. My understanding was that they had asked to see NXIVM's materials from a particular year --
MR. LESKO: Let me stop you. That's your understanding of what the actual case, but you said a patent case?
MARK VICENTE: Oh, it was more -- no. To be precise, what I understood at that point is that there was a case going on and that the patent -- I was told the patent was at risk because of this case. That's what I understood.
MR. LESKO: So you knew there was litigation involved?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: So you recall hearing in the SOP audiotape the defendant saying he would have absolute say over SOP?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Did he, in fact, have absolute say over SOP?
MARK VICENTE: He did.
MR. LESKO: You talked a bit about many NXIVM programs, Jness, SOP, SOP Complaint. Do you have an understanding now regarding how those programs related to DOS?
MARK VICENTE: My sense now is that they were almost like the hunting grounds for DOS, and they would be -- a lot of the techniques and training that occurred in those trainings would then be intended to used in DOS. And it was -- it was fostering a kind of deference and following orders. That's my sense of how it led to DOS.
MR. LESKO: Okay.
You were asked questions about the thousands of hours of videotaping that you led or conducted when you were involved with NXIVM. Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Pretty much everything, right? It was a videotape?
MARK VICENTE: Pretty much everything.
MR. LESKO: Forums?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: V weeks?
MARK VICENTE: Conversations, executive board conversations between Raniere and notable people that came into town.
MR. LESKO: Were you ever asked to videotape the defendant having sex with DOS slaves?
MR. AGNIFILO: I object to the form of the question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. LESKO: Did you ever videotape the defendant having sex with DOS slaves?
MR. AGNIFILO: I object to the question, Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: No.
MR. LESKO: So you were asked many questions about Sarah. Were you close with Sarah?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: I'm going show you what's been admitted as Defense Exhibit 302.
Remind, me, where were you in that photograph?
MARK VICENTE: I'm holding Sarah and I have a drink in my left hand. I'm in the middle.
MR. LESKO: Where is that location, where are you there?
MARK VICENTE: This is an after-party for a musical that was done in Mexico City. I was a co-writer on the musical. And this is a picture with -- not the abuser, actually, just some -- this is basically ESP NXIVM high ranks that attended the evening and this was the after-party.
MR. LESKO: Okay. Everybody's smiling?
MARK VICENTE: I'm sorry?
MR. LESKO: Is everybody smiling?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Is everybody happy?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Sarah's in the blue dress?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. LESKO: Was Sarah smiling like that when she told you she was branded?
MR. AGNIFILO: Object to the form of the question, Judge.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. LESKO: Was Sarah happy when she told you she was branded?
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: She was not. She was -- her voice was shaking and she was crying intermittently while she was talking to me.
MR. LESKO: No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: I have a couple, not too many.
THE COURT: All right. Recross.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, I just have a few questions for you.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to go to 1397 that we just looked at --
MR. AGNIFILO: And zoom in on -- it's in evidence so the jury can see it.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so we were looking at the part that makes reference to Keith, and it says the duplication of tapes Keith has asked me for, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's what it says, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's not the editing, the changes, the modification of tapes, the duplication the copying of tapes that -- that's what this says, the duplication of tapes Keith has asked me for. That's all it says, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's what it says.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, this is called Twilight Post, the project that never seemed to end, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think yesterday you were talking about -- Keith wanted all of his words and things to be memorialized and that project started in 2006. You talked about yesterday, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall the -- you talked about an event that happened in Fiji, someone wasn't happy and was asked to leave the island, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know if Clare paid that person in full?
MARK VICENTE: I don't -- I don't understand.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. The person who left the island, that person, do you know if Clare Bronfman paid that person back in full because the person didn't stay for the whole duration of the trip in Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: I wasn't privy to that kind of information.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall the problem was that this person was not civil to the staff who was taking care of her and others, at Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: My recollection of the problem was that she felt that this material was not original and she wasn't sure why she was, you know, listening to something that she already heard.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you don't recall any problems with this person being rude to the people taking care of everyone in these accommodations at Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: It is possible.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall specifically.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And my last question is, you went with a film crew to a location very close to India's place of work and you feel you were being spied on?
MARK VICENTE: I feel I was being spied on for much of 2017 and some of 2018.
MR. AGNIFILO: Including a time when you went with a film crew to a place where you knew India Oxenberg was working hoping she would be there at the time so you could capture her on film, the fact that she might have taken a picture of you doing that, you consider that spying?
MARK VICENTE: It was part of what you did in the community, you took pictures of enemies.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you. I have nothing I was.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. LESKO: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The witness is excused. You may stand down.
MARK VICENTE: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You're welcome.
(The witness exits the witness stand.)
THE COURT: All right. The Government may call its next witness.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, the Government calls Stephen Herbits. We'll need a moment to go get him.
THE COURT: Sure.
(Pause in proceedings.)
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, Your Honor, while we have a moment, may I introduce into evidence Government's Exhibit 1002A? This is the exhibit that is to replace Government's Exhibit 1002 that had previously been entered into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Government's Exhibit 1002A is received in evidence.
You may call your witness.
(Government Exhibit 1002A, was received in evidence.)
MR. LESKO: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Call your witness.