4.Mark Vicente — Cross (Part 8)
1,305 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon, Mr. Vicente.
MARK VICENTE: Good afternoon.
MR. AGNIFILO: You spoke on direct examination about something called the source. Now, the source was an acting curriculum within NXIVM; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think you said on direct examination sort of a different kind of acting curriculum than the typical acting curriculum.
Do I have that right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just tell the jury why that's so.
MARK VICENTE: My understanding of -- well, certainly the curriculum that I had done in my life was what I called the inside out approach; you know, the feel within deeply, reference the thing in your life, and then express it, you know, the best way you can to communicate to the audience.
And this was more of a, what I call the outside in approach, you know, find the specific things that a person does that match an emotion. You know, focus on those.
There was also things related to like I call the inner engineering of like how you, you know, build emotions. That was different.
MR. AGNIFILO: And there were a number of actors and actresses that were in NXIVM and enrolled in the source; is that true?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, did you have to be sort of a working or an experienced actor or actress to take the source or to be in the source?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know if Keith Raniere had an acting background?
MARK VICENTE: I believe he said he was in some school plays. I think he said at one point he had played in Sweeney Todd.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. In school, you know, high school, college; do you know?
MARK VICENTE: I actually don't know for sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: You talked on direct examination about Rainbow Cultural Gardens. Just remind the jury what that is again.
MARK VICENTE: Rainbow Cultural Gardens was two things that I understand. The one was Raniere spoke about in children windows of opportunity that were open for a certain period of time for them to learn certain things. The program was to help the children keep those windows open longer than normal and also to give them a multicultural, multi-linguistic experience that would have people around them that spoke multiple languages. That's my general understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: And for instance, within Rainbow Cultural Gardens, there were fluent speakers in Arabic, correct?
MARK VICENTE: There was two that I recall, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so one of the languages that was available to the children in Rainbow was they could learn Arabic at a very young age, for instance?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if that's true for Hindi as well?
MARK VICENTE: I actually don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Spanish?
MARK VICENTE: Spanish, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Russian?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, Russian.
MR. AGNIFILO: Mandarin?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thai?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: Cantonese?
MARK VICENTE: I actually don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: German?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: French?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall French.
MR. AGNIFILO: Japanese?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And a language that I am going to mispronounce, but you'll help me, I think it's from South Africa? Xhosa?
MARK VICENTE: Xhosa.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what is that? What is that language?
MARK VICENTE: It's one of the languages wax in Southern Africa. There's many. That's is one of them.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know if that was taught as part of Rainbow Cultural Gardens as well?
MARK VICENTE: I actually don't know. I just know there was somebody in the community that spoke that language.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And fair to say that the philosophy behind Rainbow Cultural Gardens was to give kids -- make kids comfortable with many different languages, right, at an early age?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: So that they would have a deeper awareness of the cultures of the people who spoke those languages?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this was a way of bringing peace, right? And it wasn't the idea that --
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Well, that was a statement, not a question.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
THE COURT: Form a question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. Yes.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: What was your understanding that part of the point wasn't just that the kids were going to learn languages; that the kids would have a greater appreciation for the cultures of the people who spoke those languages because they themselves also would come to speak those languages?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you spoke on direct examination about intensives. And there are intensives of different duration in terms of number of days?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And what are the different number of days that an intensive could be?
MARK VICENTE: An intensive could be five days. Could be 16 days. Level 2s could be eight days. SOP could be six days. I think Jness was eight days.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said on direct examination the days could be very long, right? Long hours?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what's your typical -- take us through a typical day of an intensive. What time are you starting? What are you doing? When are you breaking? You know, just kind of paint a picture for us.
MARK VICENTE: Could you be specific which intensive? Because there are so many.
MR. AGNIFILO: What's a typical day if you are in the 10th day of a 16-day intensive?
MARK VICENTE: As I recall, breakfast could be 7:30 in the morning. Start time could be 8:30. There were a number of modules before lunch. There was a lunch break of I think it was anywhere from an hour 15, maybe an hour and a half, depending where it was held.
There were afternoon sessions and then depending on the number of students, if there were many, many students, it could go quite late. It could go, you know, up to like 10:00. Maybe 11 p.m. If there were very few, it could go up to 7:00 or 8 p.m.
MR. AGNIFILO: And is the typical module, if there's such a thing, interactive, or is it a person just imparting information to an audience?
MARK VICENTE: It's both. There are some, one person in front of the room and then there's some that are interactive.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And it's your understanding that Keith wrote all of the modules, prepared all of the modules; am I right about that?
MARK VICENTE: That is my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
MARK VICENTE: Well, he would speak, and spoken word would be recorded, and then from that, there would be transcriptions made and from that, I believe, the education was made.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So take us -- and you're aware of this because you yourself would do some of the recording of these things, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. And then sometimes I would record and then eventually I would, to some degree, have the experience myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So take us through the process as you saw it. Start, you know, Keith asks to you come over because he wants to do what?
Tell us how the whole things starts.
MARK VICENTE: Well, in the case of the first time I saw the process, I think was at V Week, and he was going to do what was termed the download to Nancy Salzman. And I was shooting that.
Basically they would have a discussion about a topic of some kind. He would ask her a series of questions. She would give a series of answers, and he would then give her a version of an understanding of those concepts or questions. She would record it and she would make notes as well.
And then from that, she would go into the auditorium where, in that case, there were many hundreds of people and she would give -- hand the questions out and then during the time that the questions were being discussed, I believe she would arrange her notes and then give the debrief/disposition and that would continue a few times until the final disposition.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And is it your understanding that was about 2000 of these modules?
MARK VICENTE: That's what I was told, that there were around 2000 altogether.
MR. AGNIFILO: Covering a wide variety of topics; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. He would talk at length about love, correct?
He being Mr. Raniere?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, that was -- you know, anywhere from love to, you know, principle ethics, you know, the darkness of humanity, the lightness of humanity.
MR. AGNIFILO: And he would speak them all in each instance as far as you're aware, this would be a spoken act? He would actually speak the consent of the module?
MARK VICENTE: Some of it, yes. But then later with SOP, he would actually hand us the questions written down. That was slightly different.
We wouldn't be given the information in the same manner, but he would hand us the questions and then he would just walk in front of the audience and then start talking.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what is the approximate length of a typical module, if there is a typical module?
MARK VICENTE: Generally, two hours plus.
So in the level ones, it was supposed to be two hours, but they were generally longer actually.
Once you got to level twos, they could be a few hours. Beyond just two.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you spoke about the fact that you had sashes, that people wear sashes around their neck, correct?
MARK VICENTE: In ESP, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: In ESP?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it's like a martial arts type system; is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: That's what I understood.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you have an understanding that the concept was borrowed from martial arts?
MARK VICENTE: I was told that. So I -- I believe the assumption.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And Mr. Raniere had the title of Vanguard, right?
MARK VICENTE: In ESP system, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you have an understanding that that was also borrowed from martial arts for their term sensei?
MARK VICENTE: I did not. No. I thought that was an original term.
There was a definition, I think it was leader of philosophical movement, is what I was told it meant.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. I asked a bad question. Let me ask you a different question.
No, the word Vanguard, but the fact that there is a title. The fact that Mr. Raniere has a title, sort of in the official aspect of ESP.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, because that was talked about in one of the first modules, you know, people had titles and corporations, and so we were told this is just a title like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to ask you a few questions about a course evaluation. I think you talked about that a little bit on direct examination.
Fair to say that the students were asked to evaluate the course, the instructor, and the curriculum, correct?
MARK VICENTE: At the very end of intensives, we were given a form to evaluate this training and, in essence, rank all the trainings.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And often these evaluations were anonymous, right?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall in that case if they were or not.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you do recall certain evaluations of course work being anonymous.
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And anonymous meaning the student sits for the course. At the end of the course, the student fills out a questionnaire on an anonymous basis so that no one knows who is providing this critique of the course, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
However, you know, there was information that I realized you could identify the person.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But it was -- and tell me what that was.
MARK VICENTE: Date of birth. You know, your schooling. How much college you went to, that kind of thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: And date of birth was on these forms?
MARK VICENTE: I believe it was on the forms, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you sure?
MARK VICENTE: I'm actually not sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: And -- but the idea is that if it's anonymous, and if the student's name isn't on it, the student could be as critical as the student wants to be, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Under that assumption, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And these evaluations were maintained within the ESP NXIVM, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I'm sorry, could you --
MR. AGNIFILO: Were they kept? In other words, they weren't just thrown in the garbage? They were --
MARK VICENTE: I actually don't know what happened to them.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say that Raniere maintained virtually everything? I mean, he was -- he was videotaped --
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me ask you this.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many hundreds or thousands of hours did you think you spent videotaping or audiotaping Keith Raniere in the 12 years that you and he were working together?
MARK VICENTE: I'm going to say thousands.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Many thousands of hours.
MARK VICENTE: I don't know how many, but it's, I mean, it's about a thousand for sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: And were you the only person performing that function? Was there anybody else if you weren't available, or if you were away, who else would perform the same function as you did of recording Mr. Raniere?
MARK VICENTE: One moment. Adrian, Ken. I think at times, Megan.
There were times when there was no crew available, so I think it was just somebody in the upper ranks might do it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And your understanding was that all of this video footage and all the audio recordings was all maintained, correct?
MARK VICENTE: When you say maintained.
MR. AGNIFILO: I mean kept. I mean, it was -- it was downloaded to some device, some tape, or whatever --
THE COURT: You mean it was retained? Retained?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, retained is a better word, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me ask you another question.
Did you have an understanding that all of this video footage and all the audio recordings was retained by the company?
MARK VICENTE: They were supposed to be retained, but there were some issues which I was trying to help with, which was like a better system.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what were the issues?
MARK VICENTE: That there were boxes of tapes lying around that I felt shouldn't be lying around. There should be some system of, you know, codifying these, keeping them somewhere.
MR. AGNIFILO: And in addition to the recording of what Mr. Raniere was saying and doing, fair to say there were people who were basically going through the course work and breaking the course work into topics?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, that would be -- the forum review teams were doing that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Just tell us what the forum reviews did.
MARK VICENTE: I never did it, so I'll just give you my version.
They would sit in forums and they would listen to what he said, and then they had a system of some kind of categorization. It was a very complex Excel sheet, and they would make note of everything like jokes. They would make note of like the jokes, or make note of certain major topics that he talked about. And I think they would notate the time as well.
And then they would go -- at the end, they would all meet and then I believe collate everything together, I think into a single document, that would refer to that -- that forum.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So if I, for instance, wanted to know everything that Keith Raniere said about a certain topic, I could have a decent chance of finding that, because it's all been kind of collated and kept?
MARK VICENTE: With the forums, yes. I'm not sure about other things. Because the forum reviews only happened with the forums.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: One second.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I have a question for you.
You said you didn't recall if on the anonymous questionnaires, if there was dates of birth.
MARK VICENTE: I thought there were.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. If -- hold on.
(Pause.)
THE COURT: At the break we'll make copies for you.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, I'm just going to show you, just for you and the Court and the lawyers, a typical anonymous questionnaire and all I'm going to ask, I am going to ask you to look it over and then I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.
MR. LESKO: Can we have a sidebar briefly?
(Continued on the next page.)
(Sidebar conference.)
(The following occurred at sidebar.)
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, we're not objecting to use of Defense Exhibit 343 to refresh the witness' recollection, but we are objecting to counsel's characterization of the form. We don't know if this was a typical form or it wasn't. If the witness --
THE COURT: You can ask him.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, I'll ask him.
THE COURT: That's fine.
MS. PENZA: For refreshing his recollection, he should show it to the witness without any making sort of characterization about what he is showing.
You can refresh with anything, but to have like the announcement that this is typical questionnaire --
THE COURT: Yes, right.
No, I agree with that. Just show it to him.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, I'll do that.
THE COURT: Please look at this --
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, yeah.
THE COURT: -- this paper, does this refresh your recollection.
And if he says, yes, then you can ask him the question again.
So just going to do it that way.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you everybody.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
THE COURT: Okay. You may continue.
(In open court; Jury present.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, I'm going to show you a three-page document. Read it over to yourself and I'll move it up as you need me to.
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: We have to put on the Elmo part.
THE COURT: Sure. There you go.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, you tell me when you're ready for me to move it.
THE COURT: Do you see it?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
THE COURT: Good. All right.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: That's the first page.
Here's the second page.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: I remember the document.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
Do you remember if there was any of birth or other identifying information?
MARK VICENTE: On this particular one, I don't think there was. But there were a number of documents that were filled out at the end of the intensive. This is only one of them.
MR. AGNIFILO: But this was an anonymous questionnaire, correct?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, sir.
Do you recall one of the questions being whether the course was worth the money?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I want to talk about feedback. Feedback is one of the things I think you discussed on your direct examination.
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: And tell the jury again, what is feedback?
MARK VICENTE: Feedback was supposed to be helping a person see something that they couldn't see about themself, or even if they could see it, but were defiant in some way to tell them what the issue was.
MR. AGNIFILO: And in -- I think what you said is that at the proctor level, or senior proctor level, you have to accept the feedback? You can't reject the feedback?
MARK VICENTE: At a senior proctor level, you'd have to take feedback.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. For people that are lower than that level, do people have the option of having -- giving themselves like a feedback number?
MARK VICENTE: In the first intensive as a white or a student, yes. I don't remember, actually, if that -- that existed after that. But the whites could give a number.
MR. AGNIFILO: So in other words, if I didn't want feedback, if I didn't want people kind of telling me about me, I could give myself a feedback number where I didn't have to the hear that, if I was a white, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, you could say, you know, zero.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So my feedback number is zero. No one's going to confront me with any aspects of me if I have a feedback number of zero, correct?
MARK VICENTE: That's the theory. I don't know that anyone ever did that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And what's the highest feedback number?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was a hundred or ten.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So if I gave myself the hundred or the ten, I'm basically saying I'm open season.
MARK VICENTE: Fair game. Fair game.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm fair game.
You have something to say about me, I have given myself a number where I'm going to have to hear it, right?
You have to answer.
MARK VICENTE: Sorry. Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so the person at the lower level could chose whatever level of feedback they wanted, or didn't want, by the number that they assigned to themself; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you said on direct examination that feedback was to be taken as true; am I right about that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, the philosophy was all feedback is true.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And is that because this is a therapeutic system. So the question isn't really what's happening on the outside world, the question is what's happening inside of you, right?
Is that your understanding?
MARK VICENTE: Could you ask it again or in a different way? I'm a little confused.
MR. AGNIFILO: Someone came up to me and said I hate your tie.
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's my feedback. I hate your tie.
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I feel bad about that. The feedback wouldn't be about whether the other person was mean in saying that to me. The feedback would be why do I feel bad that this person said they hated my tie, right?
MARK VICENTE: I'm sorry. I'm struggling to understand what you're saying. I'm not being --
MR. AGNIFILO: Feedback is designed --
THE COURT: Wait.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, Judge.
THE COURT: Let him finish what he says and then talk.
MARK VICENTE: I'm struggling to process what your saying, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to start again. Okay? I'm just going to start again.
Feedback is meant to help the person getting the feedback, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's what it's supposed to be.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And the idea is that the person has a reaction to the feedback, a negative reaction to the feedback, to work on why the person's having a negative reaction to the feedback, right?
MARK VICENTE: So the reaction, yes. The reaction is the problem.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. The reaction is the problem. Not the content of the feedback. Right?
MARK VICENTE: It's A little more complex than that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Go ahead.
MARK VICENTE: Because if the person's giving feedback in a problematic way, it could also be the person giving feedback that's the problem, and, you know, those things would be open to arbitration.
But at a higher level, you took it. You took the hit and it's all about you. And you don't look at the other person at all. Like you don't question their motives. You just take the hit. It's true. And you deal with it and you change the thing you're supposed to change.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, you talked on direct examination about the NXIVM 9.
Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And this was a group of people that level NXIVM in 2009?
MARK VICENTE: I believe it's 2009, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And the people who ended up leaving had grievances with NXIVM or ESP; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you talked on direct examination and said that Keith listened to their grievances; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: I know that he listened to at least an hour of it, because that was recorded. He told me that he listened to a number of hours of their concerns.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But an hour you know firsthand because you recorded it yourself?
MARK VICENTE: I did not.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. How do you know then that that he listened to a hour?
MARK VICENTE: The videos was, I don't remember where, but the video was -- was posted somewhere. I remember watching it and I remember there was a discussion between him and I think it was nine women, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: I didn't hear the last --
MARK VICENTE: I think it was nine women that he was talking to.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And after listening to the grievances, he made drastic changes to the executive board; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: After they left, yes. After they left, he reshuffled the executive board, correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what were the changes that were made to the executive board?
MARK VICENTE: Well, Barbara Bouchey had left, so naturally she wasn't on the executive board anymore. Some people dropped out and a new executive board was created.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Keith remove himself from the executive board?
MARK VICENTE: I actually don't -- I don't know that he was part of the executive board.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So, but after the NXIVM 9 had left, Keith was not a member of executive board, you just don't know if he was one beforehand?
MARK VICENTE: Correct. I mean, he was above the executive board, but not a direct member of the executive board.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know if Nancy Salzman was removed from the executive board?
MARK VICENTE: I can't be sure, but she wasn't part of the new executive board.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point when the NXIVM 9 left, they made a demand for money; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding was that they were owed certain monies. They were asking for the monies back.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did you tell anyone that you thought they -- that certain member of NXIVM 9 were committing extortion against Raniere and NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: I can't recall if I told anybody. I know I was told that. But I can't recall if I told other people.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember writing a letter to the district attorney of Saratoga County?
MARK VICENTE: I do recall doing that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what you said in the letter to the district attorney of Saratoga County?
MARK VICENTE: I think I said something to the effect of that these people had damaged the business. The company. And it also damaged my ability to enroll people. I believe I said -- that's what I do remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, when you wrote the letter it's The Honorable James A. Murphy III, the sitting district attorney at the time of Saratoga County.
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote a letter and you told the district attorney of Saratoga County that Barbara Bouchey committed the crime of extortion.
Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: I don't, but that sounds consistent with the kind of thinking I may have had then.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you what's been marked as 327 for identification --
MR. AGNIFILO: And we'll implement the procedure right now, Your Honor, and I'm just going to ask, for the time being, that it be shown to the witness.
And there's no question at the moment.
327.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall writing this letter?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I want to show you the second page.
Do you recall signing this letter?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer it.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: This was essentially making a report, an official report, to law enforcement that a crime had been committed; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: That is -- that is my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. This wasn't a casual letter, a friendly letter, this was you writing a letter to the district attorney of Saratoga County reporting a crime, right?
MARK VICENTE: As directed, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's what you did.
How old were you when -- how old were you on October 26, 2010?
MARK VICENTE: 2010? 45.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're a 45-year-old-man. You're writing a letter to a district attorney saying that a certain person has committed the crime of extortion; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: That is what that letter says.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you -- you sent this letter to the district attorney; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall if I sent it or if I handed it over to somebody.
MR. AGNIFILO: You understood that when you wrote and you signed this letter, to the sitting district attorney of Saratoga County saying that Barbara Bouchey committed the crime of extortion, that that was going to be sent one way or another to the sitting district attorney of Saratoga County for his consideration, right?
MARK VICENTE: That was my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what you said, basically, am I right, is that Barbara Bouchey was extorting money from NXIVM; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: That was my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: You pointed out that you worked for NXIVM, right?
MARK VICENTE: I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: You indicated that you had knowledge of these events; am I wrong?
MARK VICENTE: Can I read the letter again before I answer that question?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you -- we'll do it the way we've been doing it. I'll show you the -- first, top part.
Please tell me when you want me to move it.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: Would you continue?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: I've lost my image.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's back. Oh, okay.
MARK VICENTE: Can I see the second page?
MR. AGNIFILO: Of course.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: Can I see the first page again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Of course.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: If you want me to move it, you just tell me.
MARK VICENTE: I don't see where I said I have specific evidence or knowledge.
MR. AGNIFILO: You do say -- you say that: Since the -- her extortion attempt, she has contacted many of your business associates, right? You say that?
MARK VICENTE: She -- she had contacted and them, yes, but --
MR. AGNIFILO: Just listen to the question.
MARK VICENTE: Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: What you say to the district attorney is that: Since the extortion attempt, she has contacted many of your business associates, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you not know that?
MARK VICENTE: That she had contacted?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MARK VICENTE: I knew that she had contacted some of them, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because they told you, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then you go on to say: Attempting to dissuade them from doing business with me.
That's what you say to the district attorney, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you know that or are you just saying that for some other reason?
MARK VICENTE: That I knew, that she was suggesting that people shouldn't continue enrolling.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told the district attorney that this has resulted in a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars for you and millions for the company, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that true?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall if I was talking of potential or actual damages in that, you know, one-year period.
MR. AGNIFILO: When writing a letter to a district attorney and implicating someone in a serious criminal offense, you would want to be careful, wouldn't you?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. And I trusted a great many people in my actions, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what you're telling us here is that the words we just talked about, about her contacting your business associates, Barbara Bouchey telling your business associates not to do business with you, you're telling us you had personal knowledge of that, right?
MARK VICENTE: Of that I had personal knowledge, I don't recall --
MR. AGNIFILO: The answer is only to that: You had personal knowledge of that, right?
MARK VICENTE: Of those two items?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all I'm asking right now.
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Those two items, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: You tell the district attorney that: Barbara Bouchey has been unhindered by legal system, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I was told that the legal system --
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm just simply asking you about what you wrote, okay?
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you wrote to the district attorney that: Barbara Bouchey had been unhindered by the legal system, what were you conveying the district attorney?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: That I was conveying, I believe, that the legal system was not doing what it should do.
MR. AGNIFILO: You then go on to say that: Barbara Bouchey has flagrantly slandered Nancy Salzman and Keith Raniere, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's what I wrote, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you mean?
MARK VICENTE: What did I mean?
I'm sorry. I heard that question asked so many times, I'm confused by the question.
Do you mean what -- could you rephrase the question?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. When you told the district attorney that Barbara Bouchey has flagrantly slandered Nancy Salzman and Keith Raniere, what did you mean?
MARK VICENTE: Could you ask it another way besides what do you mean? I've been through so much education where that was asked every day that I actually can't process the question anymore.
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't understand my question, what do you mean?
I'll ask you a different question.
MARK VICENTE: If you don't mind.
MR. AGNIFILO: What were you intending to convey to the district attorney when you wrote that to the district attorney?
MARK VICENTE: That she had spoken poorly of them.
MR. AGNIFILO: And, in your mind, speaking poorly of someone is flagrantly slandering them?
MARK VICENTE: That -- I guess that was my belief then.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was your belief based on facts?
MARK VICENTE: I actually don't not recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: Wouldn't -- before you wrote a letter to the district attorney, wouldn't you want to be absolutely clear about your facts?
MARK VICENTE: In that system at the time, I believed everything I was told and I acted accordingly.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you made an official criminal complaint to start a criminal extortion case against somebody, based on facts that you didn't know whether they were true, whether they weren't true; am I understanding you?
MARK VICENTE: I do not remember precisely whether I had the facts in front of me, or whether I was told this is what she had done.
MR. AGNIFILO: You go on to say that "A blogger named John Tighe living in Saratoga Springs, has a server in Russia.
MARK VICENTE: That is what I was told, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you check that out?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe that I went on to a computer to check IP addresses. I believe that's what I was shown.
MR. AGNIFILO: Shown by who?
MARK VICENTE: It would have been shown by the legal team at that time.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's Kristin Keeffe?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall if it was her at that time. I think it was -- I think it was Clare Bronfman, Kristin Keeffe. I don't recall if Nancy Salzman was part of it.
MR. AGNIFILO: You go on to say to the district attorney that: John Tighe, with the server in Russia, has been maliciously committing character assassination against Salzman and Raniere.
That's what you're telling the district attorney in your letter, right?
MARK VICENTE: I recall he was s writing a blog where he was saying all kind of things.
MR. AGNIFILO: And were the things that he was saying committing character -- maliciously committing character assassination?
MARK VICENTE: I think I thought so at the time.
MR. AGNIFILO: And because you thought so, you wrote this in a letter to the district attorney, so that the district attorney would take legal action, criminal legal action, against Barbara Bouchey, right?
MARK VICENTE: Because I thought so, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. You then go on to say that: John Tighe is allowing death threats, death threats, to be posted on his website? Right?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall the death threats.
I -- but I wrote this, but I don't recall the specific death threats.
MR. AGNIFILO: You told the district attorney that John Tighe had death threats on his website against Salzman and Raniere, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I think I may have been referring to comments that he was allowing on the -- on the blog.
MR. AGNIFILO: What were they?
MARK VICENTE: Sorry, I can't remember.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times -- is this the only time you've ever written letter to a district attorney's office or any prosecutor's office, asking that someone be investigated or arrested for a crime?
MARK VICENTE: Is this the...
THE COURT: I'm sorry. Can you answer that?
MARK VICENTE: No, I didn't, sir.
THE COURT: You're thinking about it.
MARK VICENTE: I'm thinking, yes.
MARK VICENTE: It's possible I may have written others while I was inside the organization.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was your residence being stalked by reporters?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many reporters were stalking your residence?
MARK VICENTE: I believe -- as far as I recall, it was only one.
MR. AGNIFILO: So when you told the district attorney that reporters, plural, were stalking your residence, that wasn't exactly accurate.
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you agree with me?
MARK VICENTE: Well, there's context to this that's making this difficult to respond to.
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't tell the district attorney when you were asking the district attorney to launch a criminal investigation against Barbara Bouchey that a reporter came to your residence. That's not what you said, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's not what I wrote.
MR. AGNIFILO: You go on to say very positive things about Raniere and Salzman in this letter, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: By the way, were you living in Saratoga County when you wrote this letter?
MARK VICENTE: I was living in 13 Twilight Drive.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what county is that?
MARK VICENTE: I'm afraid I can't remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you think that you might be living in Saratoga County when were you living at 13 Twilight?
Did you think that was possibly Saratoga County?
MARK VICENTE: I think so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you told the district attorney that you were living in Saratoga County.
MARK VICENTE: The borders and boundaries I don't remember that well anymore.
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote this letter yourself?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know that I wrote it myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did someone else write it for you and you signed your name to it?
MARK VICENTE: My recollection is it was sort of a group, a group drafting process.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Kristin Keeffe was very involved in that process; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: I think she was one of the people involved, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who else?
MARK VICENTE: I believe Lauren Salzman was involved. I believe Nancy Salzman may have had been involved.
I'm blanking if there's others.
MR. AGNIFILO: How well did you know Kristin Keeffe?
MARK VICENTE: I don't think I knew her that well. We sort of had a what I'll call it an intellectual relationship. We spoke about a lot of intellectual ideas, and then we spoke a lot about the, you know, the enemies of Keith Raniere and, you know, different stories that were out there, and how, you know, they were not true.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were -- until -- you said it was 2015, you were very involved in the program and moving up the stripe path and putting on improving on your rank; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: A little more complex than that. I think I had given up on drawing up the stripe path a little bit.
I had concerns about a lot of the ways the company was being run. But I was still very loyal. I was still very loyal to Raniere.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I'm going to show you a photograph that's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 301.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's been provided to the government.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recognize the people in that -- some of the people in that photograph, as well as yourself?
MARK VICENTE: I do, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you recognize yourself in that photograph, right?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer it.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, our monitor is not up.
MR. AGNIFILO: Oh, it's not on?
One second. We're just making sure the government sees it.
THE COURT: You don't see it?
MR. LESKO: It's not on mine.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is it on yours?
It's on one of the defense monitors apparently.
MS. PENZA: It's on the jurors', it's okay. We can --
MR. LESKO: We have no objection.
MR. AGNIFILO: We haven't put it into evidence, so it' not on the --
MS. PENZA: Oh, I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Can you see it?
MARK VICENTE: I can't see it.
THE COURT: I don't know why it's not on your monitor. That's my question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Should I keep going?
THE COURT: Do you want to publish it?
MR. AGNIFILO: I do. I do.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. LESKO: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Defendant's Exhibit 301 is received in evidence.
Publish it to the jury.
(Defense Exhibit 301, was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So assuming --
MR. AGNIFILO: It's still not on? Okay. Because I'm assuming it's on the jurors' monitors. Okay.
THE COURT: It's on the screen. Is it on the jurors' monitors?
JURORS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Then we're good.
MR. AGNIFILO: Very good. Thank you.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Who's here in this photo?
MARK VICENTE: Every single person?
MR. AGNIFILO: So rather than using because when we use the green thing --
THE COURT: I'm sorry. Can we get a date?
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, do you know about when this photo was taken? Approximately?
MARK VICENTE: I'm going to guess 2010, 2011.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So who's in front? Who's with the green and white shirt?
MARK VICENTE: On the bottom?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MARK VICENTE: Michael Margolis.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who is the woman with the black shirt to Michael Margolis' right?
MARK VICENTE: To his right. Kristen Cook.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who is right behind him with the red and white shirt?
MARK VICENTE: Marissa Secolinski (phonetic).
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who is the woman with the white shirt there on the second row? Above --
MARK VICENTE: Kristen Cook.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, to Michael Margolis' left?
MARK VICENTE: Sorry. I can't remember her name.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And now going to -- going left to right, who's the woman in the black, looks like a dress?
MARK VICENTE: Jenny Ose (phonetic).
MR. AGNIFILO: And who's the women to Jenny Ose's left?
MARK VICENTE: In the white shirt?
MR. AGNIFILO: Correct.
MARK VICENTE: Kendra Vatt (phonetic).
MR. AGNIFILO: And who's on the left of Kendra?
MARK VICENTE: A gentleman is Tony Dean Smith.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who's to the left of Tony with the scarf?
MARK VICENTE: I don't remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. Let's start on the other side.
Who's the woman standing with the white shirt and it looks like an orange scarf?
MARK VICENTE: Blanking on her name.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who's the man to her left with the black shirt?
MARK VICENTE: Blanking. Sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Who's the woman to that man's left?
MARK VICENTE: Sarah.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is the man with the blue shirt?
MARK VICENTE: Bright blue shirt is Giles Panton.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who is sort of standing just before Giles?
MARK VICENTE: That's Nancy Salzman.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And --
MARK VICENTE: I am -- I am -- that's me over there.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who's to your left with the white shirt?
MARK VICENTE: Mark Hildreth.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And to who's Mark Hildreth's left? The woman with the sort of dirty blonde hair?
MARK VICENTE: Blanking.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who's the man holding, I think, that's a dog?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, Sean Craney (phonetic).
MR. AGNIFILO: And are these folks from the Vancouver Center?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Vancouver Center, you ended up being one of the coheads of Vancouver Center; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So that's the old one.
I'm going to show you another exhibit. 302.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is just for identification for the moment.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you see that pretty well?
MARK VICENTE: I don't see anything yet. I see it now.
I recognize that photo.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: I offer 302, Judge.
MR. LESKO: No objection.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. 302 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 302, was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Is Mr. Vicente, we're going to go -- we're going to go left to right.
Who is the man on the far left, sort of in the second row? You can only see his head and his torso?
MARK VICENTE: That's Mark Hildreth.
(Continued on next page.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is the woman in front of Mark who is kind of leaning over?
MARK VICENTE: In the bottom?
MR. AGNIFILO: In the bottom part.
MARK VICENTE: One second please, Melissa.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is above Melissa, to the left of Mark?
MARK VICENTE: Kristen Kreuk.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is to Kristen's left?
MARK VICENTE: Jimena.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is to Jimena's left, in the blue?
MARK VICENTE: Sarah.
MR. AGNIFILO: Next to Sarah?
MARK VICENTE: Myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: In front of you, to your left, who is that?
MARK VICENTE: Carmen Garza.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then all the way to the right, the gentleman with the white sweater and scarf?
MARK VICENTE: Marcello Ortiz.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is above Marcello, to his right?
MARK VICENTE: Omar Boone.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is the woman with the blue and light blue, possibly dress?
MARK VICENTE: Standby, Marianna Musey.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is the gentleman to Marianna's right?
MARK VICENTE: Enrique Martin Moreno.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is above that gentleman, slightly to his left?
MARK VICENTE: Alex Balenza.
MR. AGNIFILO: The only one I think we left out is the gentleman to the far right with the black suit, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Juan Salines.
MR. AGNIFILO: Exhibit 303, just for the witness and the parties for a moment.
Do you recognize what is in that photo, Mr. Vicente?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer it at this point, Judge.
MR. LESKO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense exhibit 303 is received in evidence and published to the jury.
(Defense Exhibit 303, was received in evidence.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is 303. That's yourself on the left?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is in front of you with their arm around your neck?
MARK VICENTE: Lauren Salzman.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is to Lauren's left?
MARK VICENTE: Val Ward.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is to Val's left?
MARK VICENTE: Adrianna Castilaso.
MR. AGNIFILO: 304, do you recognize that?
MARK VICENTE: Same image -- same people, different moment.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer 304.
MR. LESKO: No objection.
THE COURT: Defense exhibit 304 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 304, was received in evidence.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So that's you and Lauren Salzman on the left?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who are the other two people?
MARK VICENTE: Val Ward and Adrianna Castilaso.
MR. LESKO: Do we have approximate date?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. Do you have an approximate date? Only if you know.
MARK VICENTE: I think 2009.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall, what, if anything, was going on at the time this photo was taken?
MARK VICENTE: It's possible that it was a visit to Vancouver. Potentially the time when I went out to do what I term damage control. It may have been that same time, I'm not entirely certain.
MR. AGNIFILO: Damage control from the NXIVM 9 situation?
MARK VICENTE: The Tacoma center was closing down.
MR. AGNIFILO: Remind the jury, you talked about that on the direct, what was going on in the Tacoma center?
MARK VICENTE: With the nine women resigning, the Tacoma center was shutting down, there was no one to operate it. The request was made, could we go out, in essence, do damage control.
Myself and Lauren Salzman and I think Barbara Jeske, I'm blanking who else went out there, to address to everybody and talk to everybody and try to convince them that nothing bad was going on. That was that trip.
MR. AGNIFILO: You talked about going to Fiji. I'm going to show you Defense exhibit 328 for identification.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer 328.
MR. LESKO: Can I have a moment? Could we approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Continued on the next page.)
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, with respect to Defense exhibit 328, we object to specifically one of the photos. We object to the photos of women in bathing suits.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's fine.
THE COURT: Where is this supposed to be?
MR. AGNIFILO: Fiji.
MS. PENZA: There are a million pictures of Fiji.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's fine.
MR. LESKO: We haven't objected, but we're -- I'm struggling to understand the relevance of all of these photographs.
THE COURT: Can you help us with the struggle?
MR. AGNIFILO: With the struggle?
THE COURT: He's struggling. I want you to be open.
MR. AGNIFILO: He was saying XOSO is abusive. I don't see abuse. I see people doing yoga in a beautiful place. I see people smiling and in bathing suits. I think the smiling overwhelms the bathing suits. There is nothing wrong with bathing suits. I don't see abuse. I don't see a harm, mean-spirited program. I see a bunch of people in Fiji enjoying themselves. I don't think that's how he described it.
MS. PENZA: A lot of this was a publicity type event. And so the idea that -- we have no problem with -- there is no -- the Government is not contending that there were not people who developed friendships within NXIVM. And at various points in time there were pictures where they appear to be having a good time and enjoying their company, that's not up for dispute. Here the probative value I think it totally overwhelms of the women in their bikinis, when this is a case of the importance of collateral.
It is obviously a different situation to have a picture of women in bathing suits, but given the circumstances and I just don't think it's appropriate. But I think that it's becoming redundant. We just want to make sure that we're not -- that it's not -- that's it is not cumulative.
We want to make sure there is an end to this. Dates in the far past, a lot of the people are in the photos. It becomes too much at some point.
THE COURT: Before it becomes too much, just stop.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
I do want to bring -- the picture -- there is nothing wrong with bathing suits.
MS. PENZA: Get another picture from Fiji. I've seen of millions.
MR. AGNIFILO: Not of people smiling.
MS. PENZA: It's inappropriate. I assure you, your Honor, there are many pictures.
MR. AGNIFILO: These are the ones that he sent. The reason these are being put in is because he e-mailed them to, I think it was Clare, so we have them. We have these. We don't have others. If there are others, we don't have those. We have these.
And this is it. After this, no more Fiji photos, no more photos at all.
THE COURT: You want to put it in or not?
MR. AGNIFILO: I do. I offered it.
THE COURT: Go ahead, put it in.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: For the lawyers, I understand that in order to restore the video on counsel's table we're going to have to reboot, so we'll do that at the end of the day and just keep going right now.
You're offering 328? All right. 328 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 328, was received in evidence.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, you're looking at Government's Exhibit 328. These pictures were sent by yourself to Clare Bronfman, Alex Betancourt and to Keith Raniere in this other e-mail that you have, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What is depicted in this top photo?
MARK VICENTE: This I believe was during the very first XOSO VIP intensive that was held I think for six people. That first photograph is a photograph I took of the participants doing in essence yoga on the deck by the pool.
MR. AGNIFILO: XOSO you said that has a physical fitness angle to it, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us what the program was exactly?
MARK VICENTE: Well, my understanding was that the first level, there were different platforms, levels. My understanding of the platforms here was like a party, put them in parties. Platform one was, some of this which was just more physical stuff, developing strength and flexibility.
I don't know a lot about the other platforms, some of them hadn't been developed yet. There was one platform that then became reverence, the emotional gym, working out, working on your emotions, being able to raise them, lower them, that kind of thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were flown to Fiji at no cost to yourself so you can take these photos for the XOSO VIP event, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I was asked to take photos and videos.
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you get to Fiji. Fly? Commercially?
THE COURT: You mean did he take a plane or a boat?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you fly commercially or fly some other way?
MARK VICENTE: I believe some of it was commercial and some of it was charter.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you go along with other people?
MARK VICENTE: I went along with the participants and the trainers. And I think this occasion I think I was on my own with the cameras.
MR. AGNIFILO: So now the bottom photo is what? Some of the accommodations in Fiji where you all stayed?
MARK VICENTE: That was I believe the master suite in the main house.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is one suite in the main house, this particular photo?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: We'll look at the next group of pictures. Were these pictures that you took yourself?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So here, what is being depicted what the bottom of the photographs?
MARK VICENTE: That is a view of the main house and the pool and the deck, with the ocean in the distance. I think I'm standing on a roof of the master bedroom.
MR. AGNIFILO: The photo above it is just sort of a --
MARK VICENTE: The gardens leading up to the main house.
THE COURT: Were you at a resort?
MARK VICENTE: This was a house that was owned by Clare Bronfman, Alex Betancourt and Raniere. And multiple properties were purchased. This was owned by a businessman at one point and they purchased it.
THE COURT: So was this owned by NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding is it was owned by a company, ACT.
THE COURT: Which was?
MARK VICENTE: ACT was Alex Clare Keith. I don't know what its relationship was to NXIVM.
THE COURT: I see go ahead.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: The photo of the people in the water, these are some of the people who attended from XOSO?
MARK VICENTE: These are some of the people that attended and some of the trainers.
THE COURT: Did you take this picture?
MARK VICENTE: I did take this picture, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you enjoy yourself in Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: Not particularly, I was shooting all the time.
THE COURT: How long did it take you to get to Fiji in hours?
MARK VICENTE: I think maybe 18, maybe more. It's like going to Australia, but there is more flights involved.
MR. AGNIFILO: These are more of the accommodations in Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: That was part of the, they eventually purchased the hotel on the island. And so this was one of the beaches that I believe belonged to the hotel.
MR. AGNIFILO: The last picture, more of the accommodations of Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: That's the main house. That's the sitting area in the main house, underneath the main section.
MR. AGNIFILO: After you went to Fiji this time, which I believe is 2014 do I have that right? Let me show you the cover e-mail.
MARK VICENTE: It looks like I sent them from there, I think, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: You believe you sent these from Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: I think so. Based on some more from today indicates that I took them that day, that I did processing on them, and then e-mailed them.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you go to Fiji again after you went there in May of 2014?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I went to shoot another training.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you didn't have such a bad time that you never went again.
MARK VICENTE: Well, I was in essence -- I'm not sure how to answer that.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you went to Fiji again were you forced? Were you compelled? Were you coerced? Did you go against your will tell? The jury that.
MARK VICENTE: No, I didn't go against my will. I went to shoot photographs, again, shoot videos. I was trying to shoot additional material for what would be turn into a trailer for the property on the island.
MR. AGNIFILO: This next time, after you had such a bad time the first time, they paid for your trip then too?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know that I said that I had a bad time the first time.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said you were working.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I asked if you enjoyed it, you said you were working.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: The next time you went, they paid for your time again too?
MARK VICENTE: They paid for the flights as far as I remember. I don't know that I was paid for the actual work; I was just paid for the flights.
MR. AGNIFILO: You paid for the hotel?
MARK VICENTE: No, it was all the resort, they already owned.
MR. AGNIFILO: So how much out-of-pocket were you to get on a plane, fly to Fiji, stay in Fiji eight, ten days, fly back? How much out-of-pocket did you suffer?
MARK VICENTE: I don't understand.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you spend a dime?
MARK VICENTE: No. I think I just spent money on food in other places.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we're going to go to another area in about two minutes, we can do it now or?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Keep going?
THE COURT: Yes, please.
MR. AGNIFILO: We played part of an audiotape. We're going to play some other parts, unless we can go for another half hour, I want to play these audiotapes and ask some questions.
THE COURT: All right, then we'll take a break. We'll take our afternoon break for ten minutes.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits the courtroom.)
THE COURT: The witness may stand down. Don't discuss your testimony with anybody.
(Whereupon, the witness steps down.)
(Brief recess.)
THE COURT: Bring in the witness.
(Whereupon, the witness resumes the stand.)
THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
(Jury enters the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
The defense may continue its cross-examination.
The witness is reminded he's still under oath.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's proceed.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to pay snippets of Government's Exhibit 1002 already in evidence. We're going to start with three minutes and 29 seconds.
(Audio played.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Could you stop it for a second? That's Damon Brink.
MARK VICENTE: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Damon Brink is one of the members of Associate Of Protectors, SOP?
MARK VICENTE: He was a member of the higher counsel up to a certain point, I think he still is a member today.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so you said this on direct examination, the gentlemen that are present for this, there is yourself, there is Keith, there is Jim Del Negro, there is Mike Baker and Damon Brink?
MARK VICENTE: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: That voice talking about hiking, that was Damon Brink?
MARK VICENTE: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: We can keep going.
(Audio played.)
JURORS: We can't hear anything.
THE COURT: Okay, hold on. Let's try it again.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think we should start at the beginning I don't know that the jurors got everything.
(Audio played.)
MR. AGNIFILO: That was Jim Del Negro?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead.
(Audio played.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, could you hear that okay?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is one of the early meetings of the Society Of Protectors, right?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so. I think this might have been after the first weekend.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so here we are in October 29, 2012, which is when this meeting took place. What is the purpose of this meeting? What, if anything, are you all trying to do?
MARK VICENTE: Well, Raniere was saying he wanted to spend time with us, to have bonding sessions. And to figure out the specifics of what we would do, because it wasn't very clear at this point. He seemed to have more of a road map. We weren't quite sure where this was going. And there were discussions, I think to help us figure out how to lead.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so one of the things that was talked about in the passage we heard a lot was commitment, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And is this the first time you ever heard Raniere say that commitment is virtue, commitment helps you build character, had he said things like that before?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall. I mean the first time I heard him say, commitment is power. As far as the other connection of concepts, I don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: He says commitment is power. He says it's personal power, right? You heard him, that it's power, it's personal power. Lack of commitment is what destroys our potency and destroys everything. You heard him say that?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: And he said commitment to an action, commitment to an ideology, commitment a course, the stronger your commitment the more powerful you are?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me, what did you understand him to be saying?
MARK VICENTE: My general understanding is basically unquestioning commitment is the most important thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: For what?
MARK VICENTE: To be become this noble ideal.
MR. AGNIFILO: And toward the end of that section what did you understand him to be saying when he said, I want absolute say but any of you can question me?
MARK VICENTE: We can talk about it, but in the end I'm the decision maker.
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the things that he also went on to say, tell me what you think of this is, people can question the group from the outside, if you weren't in SOP. You could question SOP, but he didn't want people from the outside questioning individual members of SOP. Is that what you understood?
MARK VICENTE: I was honestly a little confused about that part.
MR. AGNIFILO: Next section at 18:30. We went from 3:29 now to 18:30 and go through 20:37.
(Audio played.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said earlier that you were all trying to figure out was what SOP was going to be. Then Raniere was sort of providing more of the ideas and sort of a road map; is that a fair way to put it?
MARK VICENTE: I think he had a better idea than we did. I think we liked the basic concept, but in essence he was instructing us as to what we would do.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was the basic concept, as you understood it?
MARK VICENTE: That in order to be powerful you have to commit. And that has to be a clear commitment, commitment is power. That we would, we should become this force in the world by virtue of collecting other people who were capable of committing as well. And then eventually we would be able to influence elections, countries, be a real massive force.
MR. AGNIFILO: A force for good?
MARK VICENTE: That was what I understood then, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was the idea behind SOP as you understood it, am I right? A gathering together of men, in the beginning, to be a force for good, correct?
MARK VICENTE: That's what I was told, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the commitment that he was asking, was on behalf of any of the men who wanted to join SOP, to join it for a certain amount of time, right? Is that what you understood it?
MARK VICENTE: That was the discussion we were having, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because it was pointed out you can't demand a life commitment, so maybe a year, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Later the life commitment came up, but at this point we are just discussing.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let's go forward to 26:58.
(Audio played.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Can I stop it right there for a second?
When you said it can't be financial, it's got to be a bond of some kind, what did you mean?
MARK VICENTE: There were a lot of very wealthy people in the organization, that money was no big deal. I thought of something more of a bond between people. Certainly I wasn't suggesting where things went. I was suggesting something more, I have a bond with certain people in my life based on they will always be there for me, that kind of thing. I hadn't mapped it out in terms of, you have to do this, and I have to do that. It was more of a kind of bond I have with people I really care about and care about me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let's keep going. Thank you.
(Audio played.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is part of what we heard this morning as well, right?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so is your understanding here, if you're not going to violate your own word, then the collateral doesn't matter. Is that your understanding of what he's saying here?
MARK VICENTE: I believe that's what he's saying.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was my question. What he's saying is the collateral is irrelevant if you intend to keep your word and the collateral is attached to your word, the collateral doesn't matter because you're going to keep your word. That's what he's saying here?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: What is your understanding what he's saying?
MARK VICENTE: I have numerous understandings. There is the face value of it. Then there is the attempt to have us see a massive amount of collateral as, in least someways irrelevant, and utilizing our own desire for commitment to suggest that really if you have this enormous desire for commitment then why worry about any amount of collateral. So it almost minimizes what could be staggering collateral.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you put up staggering collateral?
MARK VICENTE: I wouldn't call it staggering.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Mr. Raniere ever threaten you in regard to your collateral?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe he threatened me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Mr. Raniere ever say, if you don't do something I'm going to release your collateral to someone?
MARK VICENTE: I wasn't worried about myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: What is the answer to that question?
MARK VICENTE: Could you ask the question again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he ever say to you, if you don't do something that I want to you do I'll release your collateral?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe he said that to me.
MR. AGNIFILO: We're not going to play the rest, we played the rest this morning.
Fair to say that the concepts of commitment and collateral and some of the things that Mr. Raniere and you all were discussing in these meetings are themes that would come up again and again in SOP?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this wasn't the last time in SOP Mr. Raniere discussed collateral and commitments and things like that, he would discuss it over and over?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you would discuss it as well, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you disagree with anything that he said about the importance of commitment?
MARK VICENTE: No, I did not disagree.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to talk to you about other aspects of SOP. You talked a great deal on direct examination about SOP. Do you remember the study you all did with the M&M's?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What do you remember about the study with the M&M's?
MARK VICENTE: It was a method he came up with to try to get the women to understand what it was like being a man.
MR. AGNIFILO: And tell me if this is right. A number of women were together and you introduced this particular program, do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. He basically said, go and do the following. I wasn't sure where I was going. He kept it from us. He wanted it to be a surprise.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury what the program was, what did you say, what were people told to do?
MARK VICENTE: Basically he said to me, go to the women, give them bunches of M&M's and their job is to try to get the men in the room to take as much of them as they can. And then let the women know that if they have any left over they will, I think it was something like, they will do maybe two minutes of planking, the top of the push-up, per M&M that they have left over, so there will be consequences for not being able to give these away.
So I went up and I did the instructions. And then it was sort of a game that began, where they were trying to get the men to take the M&M's. I think shortly after lunch, so the guys weren't really hungry.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you filming this or was someone else?
MARK VICENTE: I believe someone else was filming this.
MR. AGNIFILO: The men weren't told that if the women gave M&M's that the women would do these one-minute planks?
MARK VICENTE: They were not told that.
MR. AGNIFILO: People were crying, as they described their experiences in this M&M program, right? Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I think both men and women were crying about it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Everyone was very emotional because they didn't understand what the other -- the men didn't understand what the women were going through and vice versa; is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember how long ago it was that you did the M&M program? Fair to say many years?
MARK VICENTE: It's been a while, I don't remember.
(Continued on next page.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And you still remember it today, right?
MARK VICENTE: It took a while to recollect, but I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: But people were emotional at a lot of these programs. It wasn't just the M&M program, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, I mean, it's the nature of the human potential, there's a lot of emotion.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you were talking yesterday about this SOP event that Mr. Raniere canceled because there weren't enough men who had signed up for the event.
Do you remember talking about that a couple days --
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, I thought the way it was done was not ethical.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And tell the jury what you remember about that.
MARK VICENTE: We were supposed to have a hundred men, I think, with short maybe one or two. Some of the guys went to connect with just other men that weren't intending to take the training, and I think from another training that was going on. And then I think it ended up with a hundred two or hundred three men.
And then we began the training. He got a phone call to say, look, I think this is not done well. You know, it was an upset from, I think was Lauren Salzman.
And then he came to us and said, look, I think the way this has been done is not good. So I can't continue. I'm going to leave. You guys you can do whatever you want.
I think he -- I think he was the one that -- that I suggest to you you refund their money.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, do you recall that the problem was that -- you had to have a hundred men who signed up for this course by a certain point in time, and that you didn't have the hundred men who signed up by a certain point in time, so other people were borrowed to get to a hundred.
Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding. I wasn't part of the borrowing, but there was -- I don't recall if the deadline was at when the training started or before. I don't recall that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And because the hundred men hadn't all signed up for the course, he didn't want to go forward with the course, because the understanding was everybody who was in the course had to be signed up by a certain point and that wasn't done, right?
MARK VICENTE: Well, my recollection is that we did have a hundred men, over a hundred men in the training, but it was that he got information later that he felt it wasn't done in a proper manner. And so because of that, he felt that he needed to leave.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this was videotaped, right?
MARK VICENTE: I'm certain it was. Yeah, it was.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember Keith directly addressing all of the men himself and saying I'm going to refund your money because we didn't do this the way we had promised to do it?
Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: It's possible. I don't recall exactly. It is possible though.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you there?
MARK VICENTE: In the training room? I was there in the training room but I don't remember -- there were many, many trainings.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember him standing up in front of the whole group of men and saying I'm -- I am going to refund your money. I am responsible for this.
Do you remember him saying that?
MARK VICENTE: I mean, if you have material to show me, I can probably say yes, but I don't recall exactly in this moment that that's exactly what happened.
MR. AGNIFILO: We can do that. We'll come back to that, all right?
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: And now you said you weren't filming it, but someone else was?
MARK VICENTE: I don't think I was, because, generally, when I was helping running trainings, there were other people that were shooting.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. We're going to come back to this.
I want to talk a little bit about the video glitches. Remember you talked on direct examination about video glitches?
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: Glitches of videotapes.
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And tell me if this is right. You can't tell from watching the glitch itself whether the glitch was put there intentionally or inadvertently. Just looking at the glitch itself.
MARK VICENTE: No, I believe I can tell that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how can you tell?
MARK VICENTE: Because of the nature of the kinds of glitches that occur in -- in analog video.
And I think I made the distinction between, you know, something that was cut at the time versus later. Generally speaking, the cameras that we used and the tripods were pretty, you know, the tripods were pretty shaky.
So you could kind of see when somebody pressed a button and released, there was a shake afterwards, so I recall making that distinction.
There were also a series of glitches that just, you know, seemed very random. And I do recall creating random things to sort of, you know, hide the pattern.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you testified that Keith Raniere told you that he needed to you make glitches in video recordings, right? That's what you told the jury.
MARK VICENTE: I think I said that he asked me how it could be done.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did he specifically tell you that -- I think you told the jury that he said that these videos were going to be produced in discovery in a lawsuit.
MARK VICENTE: That the -- the patent was under risk and that these videos needed to be addressed in some way, because they were, I think, needed to be handed over and they needed to be, you know, corrected in some way. I don't remember the exact language.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall him specifically telling you that these videos were being turned over in discovery in a lawsuit?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall him saying that specifically.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So you have no specific recollection of Keith Raniere saying to you that these videos were being turned over in connection with a lawsuit; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: That's true, because I only realized about the actual lawsuit later.
MR. AGNIFILO: Isn't it true that the person who told you that was Kristin Keeffe?
MARK VICENTE: Later she shared with me that it was in relation to the Stephanie Franco case.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you heard that information from Kristin Keeffe, not from Keith Raniere.
MARK VICENTE: No, and that was 2017. I was just surprised.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So it's not the case that Keith Raniere told you that these videotapes were being turned over in the Stephanie Franco lawsuit?
MARK VICENTE: No, I don't believe I said that, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. The one that told that you was Kristin Keeffe?
MARK VICENTE: The information about what it was it being actually used for, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you testified that this happened in June of 2008, right, that this is when this --
MARK VICENTE: Sorry. Did you say -- what year?
MR. AGNIFILO: 2008. June of 2008.
MARK VICENTE: Oh, yes. I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you were interviewed by the FBI on numerous occasions prior to testifying here today, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the first time that you were interviewed by the FBI, you called the FBI on May the 26th, 2017, right?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall the exact date. It was towards the end of May.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is just to refresh your recollection.
MR. AGNIFILO: If we could just have it so that --
MS. PENZA: Could we have the number?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry. It's 3500-MV-1. 3500-MV-1.
MR. AGNIFILO: And my only question is take a look at this, and just kind of tell me if it refreshes your recollection as to the date.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: That -- that seems consistent with the time I called.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. May 26th, 2017.
MARK VICENTE: I cannot recall from my memory. I just have to go with documentation at this point.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right.
And do you recall if you contacted the FBI again on May the 31st?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall specifically. I know I did make multiple attempts.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you didn't tell the FBI about these video glitches in either of those phone interviews; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: No, I think that was sometime later.
MR. AGNIFILO: You recall being interviewed by the FBI for a third time on November 10th, 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know the exact date. But I was interviewed a number of times.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me show you something to refresh your recollection.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is 3500-MV-2.
Just look zero on the bottom left.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: Okay. Again, I think that was the time period.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't mention anything about the glitches in this third interview with the FBI, right?
MARK VICENTE: You might know better than I, because I just have the report.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember if you first told the FBI about this on December 5th, 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall if you told the FBI that you were making the glitches in 2009 and 2010?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to show you, it's the fourth page of 3500-MV-5. And it's in sort of the bottom.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I see the date there.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember you told the FBI that it was 2009 or 2010 that Raniere discussed this with you?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall saying it specifically, but it is in that report.
I don't recall the exact date that I told them.
MR. AGNIFILO: And there were a number of film projects -- there were a number of different projects that the -- that your crew was working on at different points in time; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: In the community you mean?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: There were a number of different video projects at different times; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, but it was generally one at a time. There wasn't really enough skilled crew to do too many projects.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you testified on direct examination that in terms of the project related to these videos, some things happened at your house at Twilight and some things happened at Apropos.
Do you remember testifying to that on direct examination?
MARK VICENTE: That's my recollection, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling the FBI on December 5th that you never mentioned anything happening at 13 Twilight?
When you were talking about this project, you were talking about what you were doing in regard to these videos, you never mentioned to FBI on December 5th that you were doing this in your house?
MARK VICENTE: That is entirely possible I didn't mention that, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you not mention that to the FBI because you didn't want the FBI thinking that you were doing something wrong with videotapes in your house?
MARK VICENTE: No, I think it's just 12 years of material in my brain. It's not organized very well.
MR. AGNIFILO: So what you're saying is that although you did some of this video project in your house, when it came time to actually tell the FBI about the video project, you said you did it at Apropos, right?
MARK VICENTE: And then I discovered, you know, my own emails that showed, you know, it was there as well. At which point I don't remember --
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. What you are saying is -- I'm sorry. I apologize.
MARK VICENTE: At which point I handed it over once that pieced more of it together.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. But when were you talking to the FBI in December, on December 5th of 2017, you said that all of these -- all projects was done in the restaurant Apropos. You didn't say any was done in your house.
MARK VICENTE: I may have said that. You know, I don't have perfect recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was in the basement of your house?
MARK VICENTE: The basement was a storage area. It was sort of personal storage and then there was another section that was storage area for video equipment.
It was some things kept under the stairs. A lot of cables, a lot of tripods, lights; that kind of thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you're telling us that you mistakenly said that this all happened at Apropos, because you had forgotten that you had actually done it at your house, right? That's what you're telling us?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I was traveling a great deal, so I wasn't there all the time. It wasn't like I was there every single day to have the kind of recall that would be more helpful.
I do recall certain things. Like I recall the boxes of VHS machines being stored under the stairs. I don't recall a lot about what happened in Twilight. I recognize some of the emails and I realize I guess some of it did.
I remembered going to Apropos and seeing part of the process happening there.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what exactly happened at Apropos?
MARK VICENTE: My recollection is some of the duplication happened at Apropos. I think that some of the analysis of what needed to be removed may have happened there.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're saying Fluffy was at Apropos helping you do this?
MARK VICENTE: I think he was one of the people involved. There were a number of people.
MR. AGNIFILO: Involved in Apropos, that he was in Apropos. He wasn't in 13 Twilight doing this. He was in Apropos doing this.
MARK VICENTE: I think both.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, what's Edit One and Edit Two?
MARK VICENTE: Those are referred to two -- at that point Mac Towers, Power Computers. And there were like editing desks and monitors.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were where they?
MARK VICENTE: Those were in Twilight.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were they ever in Apropos?
MARK VICENTE: Those were not, no, because they're editing machines, different purpose all together.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, but part of what you're saying is that the editing machines are different meaning they would not be used for this particular project?
MARK VICENTE: Duplications are different, a different thing than editing.
MR. AGNIFILO: So the editing machines, Edit One and Edit Two, would not be related to the project we're talking about with the videotapes -- I'm sorry -- that the videotapes being given over discovery that would be something else?
MARK VICENTE: No, I believe they were. I think they were used for certain processes like insert editing, stack it, and that kind of thing, which couldn't just be done with dubbing.
MR. AGNIFILO: So there's two parts to this, right? There's the editing part and then there is the dubbing part or the copying part, right?
MARK VICENTE: There's the -- there were a number of methods that I had suggested. In the actual extraction of the material, the hiding of the cuts, some of it was done through editing in a computer. Some of it was done through literally the manipulation of cables and some of it was done machine to machine.
The actual duplication to age them was a different process that was not necessarily done in Twilight.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're saying it was done at Apropos. It wasn't done at Twilight because it was done at --
MARK VICENTE: I think that the multiple duplications, I think, was done at Twilight. Sorry, at Apropos.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, let's look at -- I want to look at GX1396, which is already in evidence.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you see this document, GX296 in evidence?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's from Chris, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's to Nancy Salzman, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Copies Clare Bronfman, yourself, and Kristin Keeffe, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, and what it says: Hello, all. I'm writing just to complete the circle of communication. Here's my understanding of the requests for tapes of the 16-day intensive that Kristen would like for legal, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So the person here who's making the request is Kristen, in the legal department, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it says: We need it by Wednesday, June 25th, 2008.
That's what it says, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then it says: At this point, we don't know how long it will take. So as per Kristen's request, we are taking both Edit One and Edit Two stations at 13 Twilight from 8:00 a.m. until 12:00 a.m., Sunday through Wednesday, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you have a specific recollection that this is in relation to this project in regard to the tapes to be provided in discovery?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so. I don't recall another legal project.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you're not sure.
MARK VICENTE: Well, as far as I know, there's no other legal project that was -- that these machines were involved in.
MR. AGNIFILO: Are there any other projects, video projects of any type, at this point in time?
MARK VICENTE: At that point, there is likely some material from NXIVM film that started to come in. That may have been -- was possibly being looked at and logged in the machines, but this would have taken precedence.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall that you were working on these two projects at virtually the same time?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I was working on the Mexican project and so I was shooting material and sending it back to Albany. At that point there was no rush, so, you know, what would happen is if something came in that was more important, we would just stop because it wasn't -- there wasn't a deadline at that point for the Mexican project.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, do you recall at this point in time that you and others in the video unit were taking video in other forms and basically making it so that it would be easily -- more easy to store and access?
Do you remember that being an ongoing project?
MARK VICENTE: I believe that was later.
We bought -- well, Clare Bronfman bought a large what's called a RAID system. I think that was a number of years later, to basically gather all of Keith Raniere's material in one place.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you what has been marked for identification as Defendant's Exhibit 340. You might have discussed this in your direct examination, but it wasn't put into evidence.
For the time being, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions about it, but I don't want you to read it out loud just yet.
This is an email from yourself to Ken Kozak, Adrian, who also goes by the name of Fluffy and Chris, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Sorry. Do that one more time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. This is an email from you --
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: -- to Ken Kozak, Adrian and Chris, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we admit as 340.
THE COURT: So admitted.
MR. AGNIFILO: And just to be clear, it's dated July 12th, 2008.
MR. LESKO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. That's Exhibit 340 received in evidence.
Publish to the jury.
(Defense Exhibit 340, was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So here you write: Ken and Fluff, I'd like to get a timeline for getting projects completed. Right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What projects, in the plural, are you talking about there?
MARK VICENTE: The projects -- the tape dubbing for legal and then organizing the basement.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what do you mean by organizing the basement?
MARK VICENTE: It was a mess and I wanted it organized in such a fashion you could find things.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So this is not the Mexican film project you just talked about a few minutes ago. The organizing basement project is yet --
MARK VICENTE: In other words, physical labor I called projects or missions or whatever as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Okay. So what was the organizing the basement project exactly?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I had a number of fairly young people with very little experience working for me. When they would shoot things, they would often just put things anywhere, and not put them away.
And so my desire was for them to come up with some kind of system; you know, you put cables here, you put cameras here, you put lights here. It's basically an organization.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So in or around June and July of 2008, there's three projects going on. There's the legal project that Kristen wants you guys to do. There's the Mexican film project. And there's the cleaning up the basement project; am I right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, and I believe the NXIVM film project is actually being done in Mexico at that point.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So you don't think you were talking about the Mexican film project here in this email from July 12th, 2008?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: You think you're talking about the cleaning up the basement project?
MARK VICENTE: As the second project, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so what you say here is to Ken and Fluff: Can you tell me when the tape dubbing for the legal project is scheduled to be done? What did you guys discuss with Chris?
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So the legal project, is that the Kristin Keeffe project?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding it's the removing of the materials in the 16-day.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And this is what Kristin Keeffe told you that she wanted done because it was being provided in a lawsuit.
MARK VICENTE: What she told me in 2017, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So at the time that you are doing this, no one had told you that this was being done in connection with a lawsuit, right?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't learn until 2017 when you spoke to Kristin Keeffe that this is what this project was, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, I understood -- then I understood it was discovery.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, does Kristin Keeffe know all the different video projects you're doing back in --
MARK VICENTE: At that time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Does Kristin Keeffe in 2017 know all of the projects that Mark Vicente is doing in the video unit in the summer of 2008?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know how to answer that question. I can't speak for her.
MR. AGNIFILO: And your sole basis for thinking that what you're doing here for legal, for the legal project related to discovery, is what Kristin Keeffe told you nine years later.
MARK VICENTE: You can that again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
Your sole basis for believing that this tape dubbing was in connection with discovery in a lawsuit, is based on what Kristin Keeffe told you in 2017.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I think in addition I did some reading. And then I came to that conclusion.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you read?
MARK VICENTE: I cannot remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: But this is something --
MARK VICENTE: I read voraciously in 2017.
MR. AGNIFILO: How often did you and Kristin Keeffe talk in 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I'd say we spoke maybe seven, eight times, and then we stopped communicating.
MR. AGNIFILO: And who called who first?
MARK VICENTE: I think she called me first.
MR. AGNIFILO: At what --
MARK VICENTE: Yes, she did call me.
MR. AGNIFILO: At what point did she tell you that the video editing and dubbing that you were doing nine years earlier was part of giving information over in discovery in a lawsuit?
MARK VICENTE: At what point in the sequence of phone calls?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was it the first phone call? Was it the seventh phone call?
MARK VICENTE: Honestly, sir, I can't remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I'm going to show you what's in evidence as 1385R.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is a -- I'll scan it back a little bit.
1395R is already in evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is July 12th -- it's the same date as what we just saw in Defendant's Exhibit 340, that being July the 12th.
And this is from Ken Kozak to yourself copying Adrian, Chris and Dan Bratman.
Do you see that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it says here: Marco, we've had some delays. As of later tonight, approximately nine, all the VHS copies will have been made, and we're all taking turns on the mini-DV decks to get our copies out.
Which project is this?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding it's the same -- the same legal project.
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that because it says: Legal project timelines on top?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, but also because I'm talking about VHS, because we weren't using VHS anymore at that point. This is the only instance where VHS was used. The other instance, I think, was the what's called the digitization of some of Raniere's material at one point.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And so what were you doing with Raniere's material?
MARK VICENTE: There was a request to -- to save his material. Some of the stuff was on analog, just save it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So that's different than the basement project?
MARK VICENTE: The basement project is a manual labor project. So I would say absolutely different.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What were you doing with the tapes that were in the basement? Were you putting them in some other form where they could be better?
MARK VICENTE: I don't understand what tapes in the basement, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was the basement project?
MARK VICENTE: Cleaning the basement.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's it, just a cleaning project?
MARK VICENTE: Organizing and cleaning the basement.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So it wasn't a taped project?
MARK VICENTE: There was no -- there was no project involving tapes --
MR. AGNIFILO: So tell us about the Raniere --
THE COURT: Let him finish.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, Judge.
THE COURT: Finish the statement.
MARK VICENTE: No, it's just there's no editing project in the basement. The basement was storage.
MR. AGNIFILO: What's the Raniere project?
MARK VICENTE: That was just, at some point, the team was asked to start digitizing his -- his I think it's old training tapes or something. I have no idea what they were.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you have a clear recollection of when this started and when this ended?
MARK VICENTE: My sense is that was later, because it was around the time the RAID system was purchased. The RAID system being a very large 48-terabyte, ridiculously expensive machine. That was in Rome Plaza.
And that would have been later, because the office in Rome Plaza, we had, I think starting around 2014, I believe.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember working on a digitization project in 2006?
MARK VICENTE: You need to -- I mean --
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, I'm going to show you something just to refresh your recollection.
MARK VICENTE: Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: If it does.
THE COURT: Show it to him.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, I'm going to.
MR. LESKO: Do you have an exhibit number?
MR. AGNIFILO: I just -- we don't.
MR. LESKO: We haven't seen --
THE COURT: Show it to the government and then you can show it to the witness.
What's on the screen there? Is something on the screen?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, no. That was the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Just take it off.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just take it off.
THE COURT: To avoid confusion.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll give it to Your Honor as well.
THE COURT: You can show it. Is this page 1?
MR. AGNIFILO: Both pages.
THE COURT: Show it to the witness. Thank you.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Sir, I'm going to show you two pages. I just want you to look at it for the time being.
MARK VICENTE: Okay.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me when you're done, I'll show you the second page.
MARK VICENTE: All right. The second page. Thank you.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
THE COURT: Is there all right.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want --
THE COURT: Do you want to mark it?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to bring it up so you can read the whole page.
There you go.
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: So, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Does this refresh your recollection?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what's your recollection?
MARK VICENTE: There was discussing the idea of getting something called Xserve, which is the RAID system that I mentioned. Because everything was basically just lying around, and there was no system whereby you could find, you know -- can you find this particular day or this thing that he said, and so the idea was to put everything into one digital system to be able to find everything, via keywords.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you agree with me that the email you just saw is from 2006?
MARK VICENTE: That's what it says, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is an email that you yourself sent to Nancy Salzman and Pam Cafritz, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And it attaches this second page that you just looked at which, hopefully, will not be blurry, right?
(Whereupon, the witness is reviewing the document.)
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I offer it at this point. We'll put an exhibit sticker on it. It will be 344, Your Honor.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall sending this email on Friday, August 25th, 2006?
MARK VICENTE: I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, can we approach?
THE COURT: Okay.
(Continued on the next page.)
(Sidebar conference.)
(The following occurred at sidebar.)
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is not being offered for the truth. It's being offered to show the date. He thinks it's later. It's not later. It's 2006.
THE COURT: If you asked him what was the date, and he says it was two -- he remembers it was in 2007, or 2006. You have your admission.
Why do we need to clutter this with hearsay?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's not hearsay. It goes --
THE COURT: It's hearsay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Judge, it's not hearsay. It's affirmative.
THE COURT: Send me a memo about why it's not hearsay.
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't want a memo?
THE COURT: I don't. I think it's a way to get you to stop telling me this.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, we agree, Your Honor.
Mr. Agnifilo just acknowledged he's offering the document to prove that the date was 2006, the truth of that fact. And the witness has frankly acknowledged that so.
THE COURT: Yes, he's already given you the answer that you required.
So I don't understand why we have to have a debate. There must be something else in there that you want to put in.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know that. All I'm saying is ask him the questions. If he doesn't remember, then show him the document, and then ask him, you know, does that refresh his recollection?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. We'll do that. That will take seven minutes and --
THE COURT: And then what?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then what? I'm going to keep coming back until this trial is over.
THE COURT: I mean with this witness.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I'm not -- I probably have another 45 minutes to an hour. He was on direct for three days. I'm going to finish.
THE COURT: It's not an application. I'm just trying to get a -- I heard it was going to be three and a half hours.
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, it'll end up being four hours.
THE COURT: Yeah, maybe five.
MR. AGNIFILO: Maybe five.
All right, Judge.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court; Jury Present.)
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Few more questions on this, Mr. Vicente, and then we'll let you go for the day.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, in terms of this particular project, you mention that it's going to be done at three different locations; Twilight which is your house, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. What's Grant Hill?
MARK VICENTE: Grant Hill was the house that Nancy Salzman originally lived in before she moved to 3 Oregon Trail.
MR. AGNIFILO: And P's house? What's P's house?
MARK VICENTE: P's house, I believe, is 3 Oregon Trail.
MR. AGNIFILO: And P's house meaning prefix house?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Nancy Salzman's house?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And tell us exactly, now that you've seen this, and it refreshes your recollection, what is this project? What are you all doing?
MARK VICENTE: This later was named -- much later was named The Truth Project. It was basically to save his words and his video, and develop a system of categorization.
It was for a while called The Server Project.
MR. AGNIFILO: The Server Project?
MARK VICENTE: The Server Project because it was, you know, the server was purchased for this reason.
But it was a system to -- because what would happen is people would say, you know, do you remember when, you know, Vanguard said such and such and everybody would like look at each other, like a bunch of idiots. So the suggestion was, well, why don't we just put everything on the server where you can search for using key words, much faster, much more efficient. Yes, it costs money up fronts, but it will be better in the long run.
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say this was a long-term project?
MARK VICENTE: Well, it started and then failed, because people didn't want to do it. They felt that the salary was just too low so they had no interest. So it stopped for many, many years.
And then the server, due to inactivity, wasn't functioning anymore, so it was offline, and then sometime after 2014 it, was in the Rome Plaza office being repaired, and I think the project began again.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you what's been marked in evidence as 1397.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is already in evidence. So the jury can see it.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said this was a memorandum that you wrote?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding. It was a memo. I don't know that there's an email associated with it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So this is a memo that you wrote and then handed out to who?
MARK VICENTE: I can't be sure. I don't know if I handed it out, or if it was attached to an email. I don't -- I don't know that. But I'm assuming it was a team, a team at the time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you gave a number of emails to the FBI in July of 2018, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall the exact date.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember giving the FBI --
MARK VICENTE: Some emails.
MR. AGNIFILO: -- some emails.
You didn't give them all of the emails -- you didn't give them all of your emails, correct?
MARK VICENTE: No. You mean every single one?
MR. AGNIFILO: You did a search, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I -- yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you gave them the emails you wanted to give them and you didn't give them the emails you didn't want to give them; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I had to go find an email address that I no longer used, because I used this particular email address the -- I think it was the MarkVicenteme.com, I think, for the first two or three years. So I went to that -- that batch.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, in this memorandum, you have a to-do list for starting Monday, June 30, 2008.
What is this project?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding is the same project.
MR. AGNIFILO: Same project as --
MARK VICENTE: The legal project.
MR. AGNIFILO: The legal project.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So your understanding, now, when you say your understanding, are you sure? Are you clear that it's the legal project and not the Raniere project?
MARK VICENTE: It's not the Raniere project.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how do you know?
MARK VICENTE: Because there's -- purchasing of multiple machines doesn't make sense for that project.
That project was -- the cataloging server project was just, you know, one kind of machine.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I want to show you --
MR. AGNIFILO: This is government's 1396 already in evidence.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: I think we looked at, but people involved here, there's Chris. There's Nancy Salzman. There's Clare Bronfman. There's yourself and there's Kristin Keeffe, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you're saying this is the legal project, right? Correct?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to show you 1395R also in evidence.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: We have Ken Kozak, Mark Vicente, Adrian, Chris and Dan Bratman, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Other than you and Chris, everybody else is different, right?
MARK VICENTE: Well, these -- these are the worker bees, so to speak, and the upper echelons didn't need to be part of this discussion.
MR. AGNIFILO: Ken Kozak is a worker bee?
MARK VICENTE: Well, in the sense of this crew. Legal and crew were not necessarily exactly the same people.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was Chris' role?
MARK VICENTE: Chris, at that point, was managing the team for me.
MR. AGNIFILO: And in this email, we don't have Nancy Salzman on this email. We don't have Clare Bronfman on this email. And we don't have Kristin Keeffe on this email --
MARK VICENTE: That's right.
MR. AGNIFILO: -- 1395R, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yeah, they didn't need to be involved in minutia. This is minutia.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how was this different? Here we're talking about -- and here we have Chris, Salzman, Bronfman, Vicente, Keeffe, 1396.
This is details about edits, where it's going to be, that it's going to be in 13 Twilight?
MARK VICENTE: I was combining things, because there would be a purchase required. It was a confirmation of the request. So I had to involve them as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: So when you say there's a purchase required, you're talking about buying one new VCR, right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And --
MARK VICENTE: That's what I understood at the time.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Chris is saying: I need one anyway. So I'll buy it. That's a high level? That Chris needs a VCR and she's going to buy one for herself? We need to tell that to the high-level people?
MARK VICENTE: I misunderstood. I actually thought that I sent this email and now that I am reading that I didn't. So it might be better to check her reasoning, because the reasoning I gave you was with the assumption that I wrote this.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you're make an assumption. Your answer was making an assumption thinking that you wrote this?
MARK VICENTE: For a moment I thought that I was the one initiating this email. So I made the assumption of like the minutia versus things that had be to checked with those that had the purchasing power, based on that misunderstanding. You are, in fact, correct. It is from Chris.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we can stop for the day if this is good time.
THE COURT: All right. All right. We're going to adjourn for the evening, members of the jury.
Again, let me remind he you it's extremely important that you follow my instruction that you not discuss the case with anyone; not your family, your friends, or your business associates, and not your fellow juror.
In addition, you must not read, listen to, watch, access any accounts of this case on any form of media, including newspapers, TV, radio, podcasts or the internet, and not research or seek outside information about any aspect of the case.
Also, please do not communicate with anyone about the case on your phone, whether through email, text messaging, or any other means, through any blog or website, or by way of any social media, including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube or similar sites.
Also, you must not consider anything you may have read or heard about the case outside of the courtroom, whether you read it before or during the jury selection process, or during this trial.
Do not attempt any independent research or investigation of the case.
Do not visit any of the locations identified in the questionnaire or discussed during the course of jury selection or the trial.
If you are taking notes, please leave them in the jury deliberation room.
I'll see you tomorrow morning at 9:30. Thank you for your attention.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits the courtroom.)
THE COURT: All right. The witness may stand down.
Please do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We'll see you tomorrow morning at 9:30, sir.
(Whereupon, the witness steps down.)
THE COURT: Is there anything else from the parties for this evening?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, sir. Nothing from us, Judge.
MS. PENZA: Not from the government.
MR. LESKO: Actually, we have one minor matter.
THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, everyone.
Yes, one minor matter.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, I believe that we, the government, introduced and we have -- and the Court admitted Exhibit 1002, which is the audiotape.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. LESKO: And I believe counsel consents that really what we want to admit are the snippets that were played before the jury, because there's other portions of that audiotape that Your Honor has addressed in a ruling.
And so I think on consent, we'll create a new CD with just the snippets.
THE COURT: Yes, call it 1002A.
THE COURT: And then once you have agreed on the contents, we can admit that and remove the 1002.
MR. LESKO: Thank you.
THE COURT: Is that agreeable?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, it is.
MR. LESKO: Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: Okay. So about how much more do you have for tomorrow morning?
MR. AGNIFILO: Less than an hour.
THE COURT: Less than an hour. Okay.
Do you expect that there will be substantial redirect?
MR. LESKO: Yes. Not more than an hour, I would imagine.
THE COURT: Which means there may be some recross. You can say it. You can say it. It's all right.
MR. AGNIFILO: There could be more recross.
THE COURT: And then the next witness is?
MR. LESKO: If I could have a moment.
(Pause.)
MR. LESKO: Stephen Herbits, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Stephen Herbits?
MR. LESKO: Herbits, correct.
THE COURT: How long will his direct take?
MR. LESKO: Very brief.
THE COURT: Okay. Do you know about this witness?
MR. AGNIFILO: I know about him. I don't know what he add to the trial, but I'm excited to see.
THE COURT: But you know. You've heard of him.
MR. AGNIFILO: I have.
THE COURT: Well, that's a work in progress.
So -- and if his -- you should have him done tomorrow.
MR. AGNIFILO: Oh, he'll be an hour, maybe. Total.
THE COURT: And -- well, after that? Do you anticipate another witness tomorrow?
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor. Then Mr. Herbits has to be finished by tomorrow, which is why we're switching the order.
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. PENZA: And then we will be putting on Investigator Fontanelli after that.
THE COURT: And how long do you expect he will be on the stand?
MS. PENZA: I expect --
THE COURT: Since he's -- his role, you know, his testimony should be extremely limited, I would imagine.
MS. PENZA: He's also going to testify, Your Honor, regarding a map and kind of setting the stage of the properties in Clifton Park, so it's beyond what we've already discussed with Your Honor. But I still think an hour and a half approximately for his direct.
THE COURT: Okay. And then? That would be bring us to Friday morning, I assume.
You know, it is now -- this is Wednesday. Today is Wednesday. Friday is only two days away.
We have an understanding, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: We do.
THE COURT: About 48 hours.
MS. PENZA: We've already disclosed our next witness, I believe, to the Court and to defense counsel.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, that witness we expect the direct will almost certainly last to the weekend.
THE COURT: You mean it will last until next week?
MS. HAJJAR: It will last until next week.
THE COURT: We're not going to the weekend.
MS. HAJJAR: No. But it will -- the direct examination --
THE COURT: Unless you want me to.
MS. HAJJAR: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm available Saturday and Sunday.
MS. HAJJAR: Defense counsel has not objected if the government continues to meet with that witness over the weekend, so we just wanted to advise the Court of that to review certain exhibits that will likely not be offered until the following week.
MR. AGNIFILO: As long as the witness is not on cross, that's fine with us.
THE COURT: That's fine. Thank you very much.
Okay. Well, I just wanted to get a sense and this is a cooperator, I think.
MS. HAJJAR: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Thanks very much.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Have a good evening.
* * * * *
(Proceedings adjourned at 5:08 p.m. to resume on May 16, 2019 at 9:30 a.m.)