2.Mark Vicente — Cross (Part 7)
538 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Mr. Vicente.
MARK VICENTE: Good morning.
MR. AGNIFILO: My name is Marc Agnifilo. I'm Keith Raniere's lawyer. I'm going to ask you some questions.
If a question I ask you isn't clear to you, feel free to ask me to rephrase it and I'm happy to do that.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Earlier this morning you told the jury that you were afraid for your life.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because of NXIVM and Keith Raniere; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said you were afraid for the life of your mother, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the life of your wife, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said were you afraid of all these things around the time you were leaving NXIVM in June of 2017, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you sign your deal with HBO to make a film?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I didn't sign a film with HBO to make a film.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you in a commercial relationship in terms of making a movie about this case?
MARK VICENTE: Not with HBO?
MR. AGNIFILO: Explain to the jury with who?
MARK VICENTE: Well, with two film makers; I believe then HBO came on board.
MR. AGNIFILO: So an HBO movie, an HBO film, is being made about this case, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I don't actually know the content, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you been paid?
MARK VICENTE: Not to be in the film, but I've been paid for materials and I did some shooting earlier on.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were paid for what exactly?
MARK VICENTE: Standard materials release, and then additionally some shooting that I did where I had sold the material.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said a lot of what you talked about this morning took place in the spring May June 2017, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did the filming for this project begin?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I began documenting myself to make sure that if anything went awry I could say this is what I tried to do, sometime in June. As far as shooting, what would become the HBO thing, I think it was a few months later, as far as I recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: The filming started in June 2017; isn't that right?
MARK VICENTE: I started shooting, I started filming myself, and I was filming myself because I believed I would be framed for something, so I wanted to have proof of what I actually tried to do.
MR. AGNIFILO: So between June of 2017 and August of 2017 there was filming being done for a film regarding this case and Keith Raniere; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Regarding certainly me and some of what I was trying to do.
MR. AGNIFILO: What film makers did you it reach out to who now has a contract with HBO to make a movie about this case?
MARK VICENTE: I reached out to Jehane Noujaim.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you reach out to Jehane?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was later in June, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: What prompted you to reach out to a film maker to make a movie about this case?
MARK VICENTE: That's not why I reached out to her. I reached out to her because she had attended the 11-day intensive and I wanted to tell her that all of this was not what I thought it was.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you start having that conversation, and how quickly did it transition into a conversation about you being involved in a movie?
MARK VICENTE: That didn't happen for a long time.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you it first have a conversation with Jehane about you being involved in a movie?
MARK VICENTE: It wasn't about me being involved in a movie. It was, initially I was trying to document myself. I don't believe it was seen as any kind of a movie for quite sometime. I think it was later, it was later in 2017 when the idea came up.
MR. AGNIFILO: When were you first paid -- tell us again what were you paid for?
MARK VICENTE: For some standard materials and standard material release.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you get that money?
MARK VICENTE: Sometime in 2018.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who paid you the money?
MARK VICENTE: That was I believe Noujaim Films.
MR. AGNIFILO: These people now have a contract with HBO, you understand?
MARK VICENTE: That's my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you been in the role of a consultant in connection with this film project?
MARK VICENTE: I consulted on my materials in that capacity, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury how you consult on your own materials?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I have my archival materials, then I have my professional materials from the course of my career. So it's basically like explaining the context of these things. Then also with respect to materials that I shot of myself, explaining the context of how they relate.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you work alongside with Jehane and Karim in the making of this movie?
MARK VICENTE: Well, at the very beginning I shot some material. I don't know that was alongside them, because sometimes they were not even around. I, in essence, sold that material.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall telling the FBI that you worked along side Karim and Jehane in the making of this movie?
MARK VICENTE: Earlier I was, in the sense that I was on camera, so i that way, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you say you were on camera, you're on camera doing what?
MARK VICENTE: Expressing the way I felt about things. Talking about what I understood and what I had realized and how I was upset about it.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said a lot of the same things on camera that you said here in the last few days; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: I don't think so. I think I was more specific about things here.
MR. AGNIFILO: You talked about Keith Raniere in connection with this film project, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were shot on camera doing so, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you say you believe so, are you not sure? Was there a camera rolling with you talking and the camera pointed at you?
MARK VICENTE: At times I was aware, and there times I wasn't. It was a camera at times when I was aware when I was talking.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us about the times that you were unaware that you were being filmed for a movie?
MARK VICENTE: Honestly when I was, you know, crying or just upset about something, or you know reading something.
MR. AGNIFILO: So how many, if you had to estimate, how many hours of footage were taken of you talking about this case and issues related to this case on film?
MARK VICENTE: It's hard for me to -- I can estimate.
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead.
MARK VICENTE: Thirty, 40 hours, maybe more, I'm not entirely sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: What different locations were you filming?
MARK VICENTE: I'm not -- I have a confidentiality agreement with the producers, I'm not certain I can say that or not.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll defer to the Judge.
THE COURT: Answer the question.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead.
MARK VICENTE: So my apartment, Catherine Oxenberg's house, often I was in a car driving. In Vermont, there was a time I went to Vermont.
MR. AGNIFILO: You brought a film crew with you to Vermont?
MARK VICENTE: I actually asked because I was afraid for my life; I wanted to some kind of protection.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you call the local police in Vermont?
MARK VICENTE: No, because you can't call the police based on -- I tried that for a long time. I got no where. So they are just going to ignore you.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're telling us the reason you brought a film crew to Vermont wasn't so you could be in an HBO movie, it was to protect yourself?
MARK VICENTE: That was one reason. The other was to document what I was trying to do. I believed I was going to get framed for things. I believed there was a possibility I would end up in prison because they would frame me for something.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you go to Vermont in connection with the Tourettes video?
MARK VICENTE: I did, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury about that.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said you had a film crew in Vermont?
MARK VICENTE: I didn't have the film crew.
MR. AGNIFILO: You caused a film crew to go with you to Vermont?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I asked.
MR. AGNIFILO: When we say film crew, what are we talking about? How many people? What kind of equipment?
MARK VICENTE: It was two people, it was video camera and some sound equipment. I recall that was all.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was the footage you shot in Vermont?
MARK VICENTE: I had tried to talk to the film maker about the film and my concerns and then I went to the theater. They shot some of the material of me attempting to talk to people, then we were asked to leave.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said that you were at Catherine Oxenberg house and you had a film crew there as well, correct?
MARK VICENTE: There was a film crew, but it wasn't mine.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was shot there?
MARK VICENTE: Various discussions, attempting to figure out what was going on, there were a number of discussions that happened there.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had all of these discussions on camera, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know that all the discussions were on camera. I mean, there were days that we were there, that there was no camera.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you specifically chose to have discussions with Catherine Oxenberg about this case with a film crew capturing all that footage, correct?
MARK VICENTE: There was no case at that point.
MR. AGNIFILO: This matter.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, this matter. Because I wanted to make sure that I could document, I thought things were going to go badly for me, I wanted to document what I was trying to do.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're also trying to make a movie.
MARK VICENTE: I'm not trying to make a movie, because I'm not in that role.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were paid for your role in a movie, correct?
MARK VICENTE: No, I was not.
MR. AGNIFILO: The money was for what? You gave materials to --
MARK VICENTE: Paid for materials. Then I was paid for some materials that I shot that I then sold, so they owned it outright.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you, you said earlier you played a role of some sort as a consultant?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. It was regarding like my materials and the things I was handing over. Consulting, explaining it. It wasn't just handing it over with no explanation. It was like in essence me consulting, this is the stuff I have, and it's related to these things, that kind of thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: Isn't it to fair to say you had a primary role in the film's production?
MARK VICENTE: I had a role in the beginning of doing some shooting, but I wouldn't say that, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you say that? Did you say it specifically to the FBI --
MARK VICENTE: At the beginning.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me finish the question. Did you say that to the FBI in an interview that you had with the FBI on March 29, 2019, that you had a primary role in the film's production?
MARK VICENTE: At the beginning I had a role, then that changed.
MR. AGNIFILO: My question is, did you have a primary role?
MARK VICENTE: It wasn't primary, but at the beginning I had a role.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell the FBI you had a primary role during your interview in March --
MARK VICENTE: I can't remember. If you're saying it's there.
MR. AGNIFILO: I can show it to you.
MARK VICENTE: Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just for the witness. I'm going to show the witness 35800MV53, specifically the fourth page.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're not to read this, just look at it, looking at the bottom of the fourth page.
MARK VICENTE: Yes. In the beginning, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so do you agree with me that you said that you had a primary role; and you're saying you had a primary role in the beginning, correct?
MARK VICENTE: In the beginning.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that you moved away from that primary role, is that your testimony?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now while you had a primary role in the production of this film, what were you doing?
MARK VICENTE: I was shooting. And I was shooting some of the LA stuff. When I say stuff, I was shooting some of the discussions and activities in LA in the beginning. I was shooting what is called B-roll, drone footage, that kind of thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you shoot or cause to be shot, in the film sense, any of the people that you've discussed thus far in your testimony?
MARK VICENTE: Did I cause? Can you --
MR. AGNIFILO: Was India ever on tape?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe India was ever shot for this, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever shoot India with a camera, with a film camera?
MARK VICENTE: I don't believe I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever take footage of any of the women in DOS?
MARK VICENTE: I -- I don't think I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did anyone else in the film crew in this project do so?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so. But the issue there again is one of confidentiality with the producers.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I think the witness should answer the question.
THE COURT: I think there is a yes or no to that question. So yes or no?
MARK VICENTE: Could you rephrase the question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did anyone in connection with this film project take any footage of any women in DOS?
THE COURT: To your knowledge.
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I think so.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many women in DOS were put on camera?
MARK VICENTE: That I'm aware of, I think one.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you find out that this film project was bought by HBO?
MARK VICENTE: I believe that was this year.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you expect to be in the film?
MARK VICENTE: I don't have a say over that. I'm assuming probably, but I don't have a say on it.
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to go back to 2005 when you first joined you joined NXIVM, in 2005?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, I think so. I think I did. Yes, sounds about right.
MR. AGNIFILO: You stayed in NXIVM until May or June of 2017?
MARK VICENTE: Until May 2017, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So 12 years?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And during those 12 years how many times were are you promoted within NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: Are we talking stripes?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, stripes too.
MARK VICENTE: So if you count stripes as well, 12 times.
MR. AGNIFILO: And by the time that you joined NXIVM in 2005, fair to say you were fairly worldly person, you lived in many different places; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know, compared to what?
MR. AGNIFILO: South Africa.
MARK VICENTE: I've lived in a number of places.
MR. AGNIFILO: Ashland, Oregon?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I don't know to characterize myself as wordily.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was your education at the time you joined NXIVM? How far had you gone to school?
MARK VICENTE: I completed high school and I completed four years of college.
MR. AGNIFILO: Where did you go to college?
MARK VICENTE: The University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you study there?
MARK VICENTE: I studied film and drama. And I majored in directing, cinematography, and theater lighting.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you study acting, among other things?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us about your acting courses in college, how many did you take, what did they focus on?
MARK VICENTE: The first three years it was a requirement; so I did acting classes every single day.
MR. AGNIFILO: Every single day for three years?
MARK VICENTE: Well, minus the weekends and holidays, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Prior to your coming to NXIVM you had made a movie, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, well many.
MR. AGNIFILO: Many. One that got a particular amount of attention, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Are you referring to What The Bleep?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you make What The Bleep?
MARK VICENTE: I started making it in 2001, we completed in 2004.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was, that had fairly wide release?
MARK VICENTE: Not wide release, but it became pretty acclaimed.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said you were promoted in NXIVM 12 different times. You made income from your work in NXIVM starting in 2007; is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And between 2007 and 2017 could you estimate how much income you made from NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know that I can. I think monthly the most I ever made was 8,000, the least I made was like 2,000.
MR. AGNIFILO: What is Insight Industries LLC?
MARK VICENTE: Insight Industries was an LLC that I set up when I moved to Albany.
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say that you took income from NXIVM through Insight Industries LLC?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. At first I didn't, but then yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And at first how did you take the income that a were making from NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: I think I took it into another LLC, I had then I switched over.
MR. AGNIFILO: After you started using insight LLC, did you take income in any way from NXIVM or was it all through Insight LLC?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know that I'm absolutely certain. I'm assuming I did take it into the corporation, but I may be mistaken.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall in 2012 if you made $79,557 through Insight LLC?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall, but if you have a tax return then that's probably accurate.
MR. AGNIFILO: Does that sound about right for 2012?
MARK VICENTE: I think it does, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: For 2013 $63,325 through insight LLC?
MARK VICENTE: Again, I think you have more information than I do but that sounds about right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall making less money in 2013 than you did in 2012?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: In 2014 $52,573 through Insight? Does that sound about right?
MARK VICENTE: I can't be certain.
MR. AGNIFILO: In 2016 about $46,000 through Insight LLC, does that sound about, right?
MARK VICENTE: Again, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall making less income from your work at NXIVM between 2012 and 2016?
MARK VICENTE: That actually I do recall, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us what you recall about that.
MARK VICENTE: I remember that I was involved in so many different projects that I was not giving adequate time to the field trainer business.
Then also I recall at one point there was a switch over. I don't remember the dates. Where at times NXIVM was paying, rather than paying directly to the Vancouver center it was paid into NXIVM and then redistributed from there. So I remember there was a an exchange, there was a fluctuation in income earned because of the money going to a -- the issue is going to Canada first then to the U.S. back to Canada. So we simplified things.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said that Sarah and yourself ran the centers in Los Angeles and in Vancouver?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, we were the co-owners. She mostly was -- she was in Vancouver all the time, I was in LA a lot more. We ran it together.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall as things progressed leading to 2017 the Vancouver center made considerably less money than it did beforehand?
MARK VICENTE: I do recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury what you recall.
MARK VICENTE: One of the things that I remember happening is during, when Ultima started in 2014, a lot of our staff were in essence being asked to go to Albany and so we had a drain of staff. And we were struggling to maintain our numbers and our ability to run classes. So we were struggling as centers, because many of our staff were moving back to Albany.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that true both for the Vancouver center and the Los Angeles center?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, that was the case for both.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me if this is right, as someone who is involved in owning a center, you're essentially, you have expenses in connection with the center; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury what the expenses are.
MARK VICENTE: They are the actual rent, the insurance, there is power, water, there was some janitorial services, I believe. That's what I can recall right now.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall in 2016 early 2017 the Vancouver center was behind in its in paying its expenses?
MARK VICENTE: I think so. I'd have to look at the spreadsheets. I recall something like that, at one point we were a little behind.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall if that is something that concerned you as one of the co-center owners?
MARK VICENTE: It did actually not because I remember having to put some of our monies in to stay afloat.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's true for you and Sarah?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, we both had to.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is going on in early 2017; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Actually it happened a few different times during the course of the center's life.
MR. AGNIFILO: One of the those times was early 2017?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall if it's exactly 2017, but I do recall there were a number of times. Because I recall at one point I was discussing we put in, I think it was $70,000, at one point to keep thing as float.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is the $70,000 of your own money?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So not you and Sarah together, meaning your own money?
MARK VICENTE: No, Sarah and I together.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall how much of the 70,000 was your own money?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was split pretty even, so it would have been at least 35.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times did that happen that you and Sarah had to put in your own money to keep the center afloat?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was maybe three times, maybe.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember when the last time was?
MARK VICENTE: I don't specifically, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times did you go to Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was three times.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times did you pay for yourself to go to Fiji? And how many times did someone else pay for to you go to Fiji?
MARK VICENTE: I think I paid once. And the two other times I think they paid. Because they were intensives, I think the corporation paid, the corporation not being me.
MR. AGNIFILO: So one of the perks, I guess, of the job, in addition to the salary, you get expense-paid trips to Fiji on occasion?
MARK VICENTE: Well, I worked the entire time so I didn't get a chance to enjoy things.
MR. AGNIFILO: How long did you go each time?
MARK VICENTE: My recollection on one time was a week, another time was I think it was ten days. I recall the weather was poor. I was trying to shoot. It was miserable weather, we had to wait for sun.
MR. AGNIFILO: You testified on direct examination before, that for the vast majority of your time with NXIVM you believed was doing good things, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Up until I'd say 2015 I felt that, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that was important to you. The reason you stayed for 12 years was you believed that NXIVM was doing good in the world, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And NXIVM was doing tangible real things in the world. You talked on direct examination about the Mexico Peace Project, tell the jury a little about that?
MARK VICENTE: The Mexico peace project was borne --
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, can we approach?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall talking on direct examination about a film project you did in Mexico?
MARK VICENTE: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: Please explain to the jury what it was?
MARK VICENTE: The --
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sidebar.
(Continued on the next page.)
(Sidebar conference.)
THE COURT: Let's start with the objection.
MR. LESKO: The objection is I don't believe Mr. Vicente explained in detail the nature of the film project that he worked on in Mexico. He mentioned he did work on a film project. What I'm concerned about here is that this will end up with Mr. Agnifilo questioning the witness extensively about the defendant's involvement in a movement in Mexico that was not discussed or testified to by Mr. Vicente, and this will be a distraction. And it goes to the issue of good works, the alleged good works, by the defendant. There is a whole history here with the Mexican movement and the defendant's alleged involvement in the Mexican movement. It's completely irrelevant. And we were very careful on direct examination of the witness to have him not go into detail regarding that Mexican story.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's critically relevant. It's critically relevant. It's clearly for reasons that he's staying in NXIVM. And the fact that Keith Raniere does do work as part of NXIVM is absolutely relevant.
We don't have to have a trial of only negative portrayed. This is a balanced trial. He mentioned this on direct examination. He said so himself. I want him to explain more about what he already brought up in direct examination. It's absolutely fair cross-examination. And I want to ask him about it.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, I believe your Honor has ruled on this issue in terms of the alleged good works. I don't object to cross-examination regarding the film, the fact that there was a film he was working on, but I think --
THE COURT: I think also whether Mr. Raniere had a relationship with making film, that I'll allow. But a whole discussion about the program in Mexico is really not within the scope of the direct. So you can go into it, but within reason.
MR. AGNIFILO: Very good.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, you were just about to discuss a film project you were doing in Mexico, please tell the jury about it.
MARK VICENTE: Sure. So I think it began in 2009 and there were a number of the Mexican students in the organization who were from affluent families and experienced kidnappings. They were talking to Raniere about this problem and he suggested he may have solutions.
We had a meeting and I began shooting the meeting, which I believe lasted four days. And then the idea, a movement, was suggested. I decided to continue shooting. I went to Mexico to follow all these people.
They were going from town to town singing and creating anthems and trying to get people involved in the movement. And I documented that for sometime, until I found additional stories to support that. Then finally, I think we finally released the film in 2016.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said that you filmed this movement in Mexico, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I filmed as much as I could, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was Mr. Raniere's role in connection with the movement and your filming of the movie?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: You can restate.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was Mr. Raniere's role in this?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: You can answer.
MARK VICENTE: He was giving them the philosophy of what to do. And the idea was that they were to go and enact the philosophy.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was that?
MARK VICENTE: It was things like non-violent ideas, like if somebody hits you, do nothing, that would expose the violence. Shunning, boycotts, in essence standing up to criminals.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you talked on direct examination about Eric LeBaron?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, the young man that was kidnapped.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury.
MARK VICENTE: The story I told before?
MR. AGNIFILO: Please.
MARK VICENTE: What happened is, not as a film maker I was not finding the story compelling, so I was looking for heroic examples. We read in the paper about this young boy that was kidnapped in the small town in Chihuahua, Mexico.
So the story was that he was kidnapped. The kidnappers demanded a million dollars. The farmers got together to raise the money. And then the leader decided this was a very bad idea, we shouldn't do it. And so he instead -- they surrounded the Government building and they in essence forced the Government to tell the kidnappers release him, which indicated they were working together.
And after that, when we read that, we thought this is a great story let's go and document what we can. So we documented the after of that and the demonstrations that they were doing. And then we documented, we interviewed the leader. And then he was murdered. And then we went back to interview the community.
And then I think it was after he was murdered -- sorry, before he was murdered that I told Raniere about the community and that we talked about, well, maybe we can have them visit us at some point. That got delayed because he got murdered.
Sometime later, I invited a number of them to come to Albany to take training and to listen to Raniere's philosophies on violence.
MR. AGNIFILO: The philosophy was a non-violent philosophy, correct?
MARK VICENTE: That was the philosophy.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you talked at different points in your direct examination on the concept of readiness; is that fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Readiness being someone sends out a message, like a question mark or something, to a bunch of people, who then send it out to a bunch of people, and then everybody kind of reverts back that they are ready, that they got the message, and they are ready, whatever ready might mean, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. And the idea was ready for some specific action if there was one.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you talked on direct examination about a specific instance, I believe it involved someone involved in the Mumford family who's father was missing for a period of time. And the group employed readiness principles to locate the man. Do I have that, right?
MARK VICENTE: I don't recall which family it was. I think it was in Europe, but it's possible.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury how that worked.
MARK VICENTE: I just remember that there was somebody that was missing, and couldn't be found, and that the system was alerted to which involved everybody calling everybody they knew related to that person, like family and hotels and different things, until they were found. In essence it was seen as a kind of a rescue.
MR. AGNIFILO: In addition to that incident, do you recall an incident where readiness was used to address a situation in Mexico? Do you know someone named Juan Salines?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Does that jog your memory?
MARK VICENTE: It's not jogging my memory, though. Do you have more information?
MR. AGNIFILO: Actually, do you recall receiving an e-mail about, I'm going to show you, it's Defense exhibit 332, just going to show it to you to see if you can recollect it. It's two pages. I'll show you the first page first. Do you see that first page?
THE COURT: This is?
MR. AGNIFILO: Only marked for identification as, Defense exhibit 332.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Can you see it okay, Mr. Vicente?
MARK VICENTE: I can. Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's from you, right, Mark SOP, that's your e-mail address?
MARK VICENTE: That was, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: At the time. It's to a number of people do you see that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: The name there, Erik Einhaert, who is that?
MARK VICENTE: That's Keith Raniere scrambled.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say, that was a character in a movie project you guys were talking about?
MARK VICENTE: Correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the first page and an indication of an attachment, do you see that?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to go to the second page the attachment.
MARK VICENTE: I remember now.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Let's do it this way, you agree with me this is an e-mail from you to a number of other people including Mr. Raniere, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer --
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: I don't have it. Come to sidebar.
(Continued on the next page.)
(Sidebar conference.)
THE COURT: What is your objection?
MR. LESKO: To the admission of the e-mail into evidence. He acknowledged that it refreshes his memory. Mr. Agnifilo can use it to refresh his memory. The document is hearsay. We object to the admission of the document itself.
THE COURT: It is hearsay. Let's start with that. And why is it admissible?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because it goes to, he sent this to a number of other people, that's relevant. This shows that connection of the different people in SOP.
THE COURT: You can ask him about what is in it. If he doesn't remember it, then can you show it to him. Then, does it refresh his recollection. But it's still hearsay.
I didn't make the rules of hearsay. I would not have made these rules of hearsay. I have an objection of how hearsay and non-hearsay is established by whoever established it in order to teach it to students so they will not understand it.
MR. AGNIFILO: I sustain your objection.
THE COURT: Having said that, and established my own bias regarding hearsay, I'm just trying to grapple with hearsay here. It's hearsay.
So why don't you do it the way we normally do it on cross-examination. If it's his statement in writing, ask him about it. Let's move on.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Vicente, when I showed this to you you recalled the incident, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I think it's the same one.
MR. AGNIFILO: So here is what we can do. Let me see if I can do this so you can see it. Can you read that okay?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. Would you like me to read it?
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't want to you read it. What I'm going to do is --
THE COURT: You're going to ask about this.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to ask you about it.
MARK VICENTE: Understood.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is about one of your members who was intercepted in traffic and detained by police, the police bearing military-grade assault rifles, right?
MARK VICENTE: That's what I recall, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And as soon as this person was stopped --
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
Do you remember this incident?
MARK VICENTE: I think I do. I haven't read this, but I think I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't want to keep coming back to side bar.
THE COURT: You don't have to. I'll ask the questions and get it right.
Go ahead, next question.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me ask you, what do you recall -- let me -- take sometime, read this to yourself. Let me see if I can get the whole thing on one shot there.
MARK VICENTE: Can we do it in sections, my eyesight is not so awesome.
MR. AGNIFILO: You tell me when you're done and then I'll move it.
(Witness reviewing document.)
MARK VICENTE: Would you mind moving it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Of course. Here you go.
(Witness reviewing document.)
MARK VICENTE: I've got on the bottom of the page.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is your memory about this event refreshed?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury what happened.
MARK VICENTE: My recollection is that Juan Salines had shared with me over-the-phone that one of the men had been transporting cash. And that he believed that the somebody had been seeing him pick the cash up and he was traveling with the cash. So the police stopped the vehicle.
MR. AGNIFILO: Can I just stop you for a second? This is in Mexico?
MARK VICENTE: Mexico City.
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead.
MARK VICENTE: The police stopped him. And basically arrested him and impounded his car, I think they impounded the cash, and this bottle of Spirulina, which they thought might be something. They took him to the police station. And I don't recall if it was because the man had sent a message for help or he missed his -- I don't know, but I remember getting a call from Juan Salines at the police station asking how many men were there. The idea is, men would wait to support him.
Eventually the man was released on the idea, the men had the idea they put pressure on the police to in essence expose that what they were doing was corrupt. The police would realize they can't mess with all these people. That was the general idea of the story.
I believe I was the one that said to Mr. Salines, why don't you write it down and send it to me.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you say the men, are you talking about SOP?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. The gentleman in question was an SOP team in Mexico City. I don't know if the other men were on his team or in addition to other teams, I'm not sure. But yes, it was an SOP man.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did the concept of readiness begin within SOP, if you remember?
MARK VICENTE: Wild guess 2012, I'm not for sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: We can see, judging by this e-mail, this is 2015, so this is after you guys had already started the concept of readiness, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me if you would, if you recognize these words I'm about to say, "Love stands in contrast to the fear of isolated human existence. It is expansive and all encompassing, never small, contracted or guarded. It goes beyond all circumstances, situations, never limited or produced by anything of this world."
MR. LESKO: We're going to object.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said on direct examination that Keith Raniere wrote your wedding vows, correct?
MARK VICENTE: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recognize what I just read?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what your wedding vows were?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MARK VICENTE: Honestly that's a trick question, because you just read them.
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't want to get you in trouble.
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MR. AGNIFILO: I told him, I thought he was about to answer --
THE COURT: It's not a conversation. Only answer the questions that I allow you to answer.
Next question.
MR. AGNIFILO: So Keith Raniere wrote your wedding vows?
MARK VICENTE: That's what I believe. For certain, I don't know, that's what I believe.
MR. AGNIFILO: You recall testifying on direct examination that Keith Raniere wrote your wedding vows?
MARK VICENTE: Absolutely. But I also don't know if that is actually what happened. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you also testified on direct examination that at one point Pam Cafritz said to you she hoped you and Keith would you friends. Do you remember that?
MARK VICENTE: I recall she did say that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Where were you when she said that to you?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was one of the streets in Knoxwoods, I think it was. We were outside, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you know Pam?
MARK VICENTE: I mean I spent a lot of time with Pam. I have to define "know". I spent time with her.
MR. AGNIFILO: You spent a lot of time with her?
MARK VICENTE: A fair amount, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you spend time with Pam and Keith together?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you saw their relationship, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I saw, I saw the way they related to each other.
MR. AGNIFILO: Which is how?
MARK VICENTE: She was very differential, and she looked like she would take care of everything he needed.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when she said to you that Keith doesn't have a lot of male friends maybe you could be his friend?
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: You have to answer yes or no.
MARK VICENTE: I didn't know what the question is yet.
MR. AGNIFILO: You and Keith did become friends?
MARK VICENTE: I thought so.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Pam didn't say to you, you should get to know Keith so you can be differential to him. She said, because he doesn't have a lot of friends, maybe you can be his friend?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: The only thing that she talked about during that conversation was that you and Keith could be friends, right?
MARK VICENTE: I don't know if that's the only thing we spoke about, but I do recall her saying that.
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point I think you said on direct examination that Nancy Salzman and Barbara Bouchey told you that they admired your film, What The Bleep Do We Know; fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: The movie is about science and spirituality, is that a fair way to put it?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that they are essential realities to each of us but we don't always see what those are; is that fair characterizations? I'm talking to the man who made the movie, I realize. What would you say the movie is about?
MARK VICENTE: I think it was trying to draw the connections between mind, spirits and reality. It's something that I'm not, I don't sell anymore. But the idea that your consciousness effects reality. It was a phase I was going through.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said that was it Nancy Salzman and Barbara Bouchey who flew to Oregon and saw you in southern Oregon?
MARK VICENTE: No. Nancy Salzman and Barbara Bouchey flew to LA to meet me the first time. It was Nancy Salzman and Sarah Bronfman that flew to southern Oregon.
MR. AGNIFILO: Which was first, the LA trip for the Oregon trip?
MARK VICENTE: LA was first.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was the first time you ever met anyone from NXIVM?
MARK VICENTE: I believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you talk about?
MARK VICENTE: Well, as you said, they said that they admired the film. And they said that the things that you hypothesize in the film, we can do, we know how to do what you're talking about.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you understand what they meant by that?
MARK VICENTE: Not entirely. But I assumed because we were looking at the biochemistry of emotionality and how one could make a change. And the film didn't offer any specific methodology, and Nancy Salzman said our methodology can do that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this conversation happened over the course of a single day or more than one day?
MARK VICENTE: That conversation was sort of a tee of an hour or two, and then in the hour we continued the conversation.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then there was a second conversation that took place in Oregon, am I right about that?
MARK VICENTE: A few weeks later, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall -- and who was there exactly in the Oregon conversation?
MARK VICENTE: That was Nancy Salzman and Sarah Bronfman.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you talk about during that conversation?
MARK VICENTE: They spoke a lot more about the modality, which I didn't completely understand at the time. They asked me a lot of questions about what I wanted in my life, what my deepest dreams were. They suggested that perhaps they could help me have those things or create those things. They thought it was important that I at least experienced the model and that I met their mentor.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you want to, do when you say they discussed with you your deepest dreams, what did you tell them you wanted to do?
MARK VICENTE: To make the world a better place.
MR. AGNIFILO: How were you going to go about doing that?
MARK VICENTE: I hoped to make films that could effect people deeply enough that they would behave in such a way that they would make the world a better place.
MR. AGNIFILO: They told you in essence that they would support your film making endeavors so you could do this, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, and also help me become, I don't know if this is the correct word, smart enough to do that.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think on direct examination you told us about an example, that your girlfriend at the time had a dairy allergy?
MARK VICENTE: Yes, at the time. And Nancy Salzman did what I later found out was an EM.
MR. LESKO: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did Nancy -- tell us what Nancy Salzman did?
MR. LESKO: Objection.
THE COURT: Scope?
MR. LESKO: Yes.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You discussed on direct examination that Nancy Salzman spoke to your girlfriend at the time and made her tearful, right? Do you remember saying that on direct examination?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did she do?
MARK VICENTE: She had a conversation with her, which I didn't understand at the time. And then said to her, you know, stay off dairy for a day, 24 hours, then try to reintroduce it and see what happens.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did it work?
MARK VICENTE: It seemed to work. She tried little portions, seemed fine. I actually I don't recall, I don't recall if she just went crazy and had a lot of dairy or just stayed away, I don't recall that. But I recall that 24 hours later she introduced a small bit of cheese and she didn't have the reaction.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said on direct examination that Nancy Salzman said things to your girlfriend that made her tearful, what specifically did she say?
MARK VICENTE: I have no idea.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were there for this, correct?
MARK VICENTE: I was.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you observe?
MARK VICENTE: Them talking, Nancy Salzman was asking her questions. It was in a restaurant.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was your girlfriend at the time doing?
MARK VICENTE: I think listening and I think answering some of the questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you she start crying?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And for how long a period of time was she crying, if you could remember?
MARK VICENTE: Less than a minute maybe.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then she didn't have dairy for a day. And then you recall she had small amounts of dairy and didn't have the same problem?
MARK VICENTE: Yes. I don't recall if she went crazy and had a lot of it.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said on direct examination that you were impressed by that; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: I was.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why were you impressed?
MARK VICENTE: My experience of people trying to help with allergies, I mostly had seen a lot of lack of success. And I was surprised that it could happen that quickly, if indeed it did work, that it could happen that quickly. I was surprised by that. I was mystified by the nature of her questions. I couldn't understand at the time what was happening.
MR. AGNIFILO: You spoke on direct examination about a lot of different groups within NXIVM, there was Jness, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Remind the jury what is Jness?
MARK VICENTE: Jness was, we were told, a movement to help women truly understand themselves. Raniere had suggested that they define everything in terms of men, instead of trying to find things in terms of being a women. And that even the word woman had man in it. I think that's why the name Jness came up.
MR. AGNIFILO: There was a Jness room; is that right?
MARK VICENTE: There was a Jness -- yes, it was an apropos.
MR. AGNIFILO: What is your understanding of that?
MARK VICENTE: No man was allowed to enter or even look at it; it would somehow effect things. I just never went in, so I don't know what it looked like.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then there is SOP that we discussed at some length so far, correct?
MARK VICENTE: Uh-huh.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was the men's group?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that was created after Jness, fair to say?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So Jness was first, then SOP came later on?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then after the creation of SOP there was SOP Complete right?
MARK VICENTE: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And just tell us again what is the difference between SOP and SOP Complete?
MARK VICENTE: SOP was purely men; and SOP Complete was adding women into the equation. I think the word complete came from, I was told, was somehow that a man a woman makes completion, that makes the idea SOP Complete.
MR. AGNIFILO: You talked about ethicist. Remind us what ethicist is?
MARK VICENTE: My understanding is ethicist was a curriculum to create somebody called an ethicist. This is was a hypothesized career path in the world. These people would be able to work in the highest levels of Government and very powerful positions to help people resolve things. That in order to become the person that could think ethically, they would have to resolve all their own internal ethical discrepancies.