2.Daniela — Cross/Redirect (Recall, Part 3)
1,814 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Daniela.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to ask you some questions this morning just like yesterday. If I ask you a question that you don't understand or you want me to rephrase, just ask me to do that and I'll be happy to do that. Okay?
THE COURT: Check that your microphone is on.
MR. AGNIFILO: It is not.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Toward the end of yesterday, I had asked you certain questions about e-mails that you had with Kristin Keefe and who a particular friend of yours was. Do you remember me asking you those questions?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm just going to remind you. This is already in evidence as Defense Exhibit 607 and I asked you about this yesterday. Here's 607. Let me try and get the whole thing there.
All right. The date of that e-mail is October the 31st. It's from Kristin Keefe to you and it says: Hi, Danny. Please let me know about your friend. It's very important.
Do you remember that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Judge, it's in evidence.
THE COURT: It's rebooting. Hold on. Got it.
Do you have it now?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So let's take it from the top. So it's from Kristin Keefe, it's to you, and it's dated October the 31, 2005. It says: Hi, Danny. Please let me know about your friend. It's very important.
I asked you if you have a recollection of who the friend was and I think you said yesterday you weren't sure exactly who the friend was, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I'm going to show you an exhibit that's already in evidence. It's Government's Exhibit 1514 in evidence and this is an e-mail dated the same day, October the 31st, 2005, as soon as that comes into focus.
And whose -- how do you pronounce the name of this person that's sending this message to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who is that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was this person contacting you about?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why were you in touch with this person?
DANIELA: This is one of the people that I contacted to find out if they knew someone who could get passwords.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So this is one of the people you were talking to to see if they could get passwords so that you could hack into computers, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this e-mail is dated October the 31st, 2005, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And just to complete the circle -- I'm sorry. I showed you the same e-mail twice.
What we just looked at, 607, that's the same date, the e-mail from Kristin Keefe where she's asking about your friend, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is this the friend she's asking you?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you agree with me that the same day that Kristin Keefe is asking you about your friend, October 31, 2005, is the same day that your friend contacts you in regard to providing you with information so that you can hack into computers, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's the same day?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said that you, you hacked into a number of different people's e-mail accounts, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said one of the people that you tried to hack into was someone named Joe O'Hara, is that correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who is Joe O'Hara?
DANIELA: He is, was a lawyer. I don't know exactly who he was. I understood he was a lawyer for NXIVM at some point.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said on direct examination that you sent a trojan e-mail?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just tell the jury what that is?
DANIELA: A trojan e-mail is an e-mail that is designed and disguised to look like a regular e-mail, like perfectly innocent but it hides some malware or some kind of spy software that's supposed to download without the knowledge of the user.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you sent this -- how did you go about trying to have this put on Mr. O'Hara's computer?
MR. AGNIFILO: Correct.
DANIELA: Okay. It started, if I recall correctly, with crafting the, the actual e-mail I was going to send, masking the address so it looked like it was coming from a, at least a familiar e-mail or something that doesn't look suspicious.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me stop you there for a second.
How do you go about masking the address?
DANIELA: There's, there's special ways to do that. There are special services and software to do that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how did you learn how to do it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. Go ahead. I interrupted your process.
DANIELA: So, masking it is the first step at the same time as crafting the actual content of the e-mail, which indicates the method I was using was having a, again, a file that did not seem like a virus or an infection or any kind of attack but just an Excel sheet or an image and embedded in said file would be the code that would deploy the software that would be used to spy on the person.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how long did it take you to learn how to do all this?
MR. AGNIFILO: Days? Weeks? Months?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said that the, in the instance of Joe O'Hara, it didn't work, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know why?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said at one point, you, you tried to hack into Edgar Bronfman's e-mail server, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you prepared a key logger for that as well?
MR. AGNIFILO: And --
THE COURT: Excuse me. We're talking about the father of Clare Bronfman?
MR. AGNIFILO: Correct.
THE COURT: Because there are several people named Edgar Bronfman.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. Yes.
THE COURT: Let's be specific. All right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is Clare Bronfman's father, Edgar Bronfman?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you something differently with that hack attempt than you did with Joe O'Hara?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you do differently?
DANIELA: As I said before, it was a, it was a hack that was different for the single factor that it was going to be perpetrated by Clare so not by me directly, therefore, the method was a little simpler. So the process, the actual method is the same but shorter since the process of having to mask and make it go through all the filters wasn't necessary because Pam -- because Clare was going to be sending it to her father and that's overwritten.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you regard -- do you remember, in regard to that particular hack attempt, that you went to a place to use the internet of a establishment called Mocha Lisa?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was there a retail outlet in the area called Mocha Lisa?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember if you went with Fluffy, your brother, and your sister Cami?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember going in Fluffy's car with both Fluffy and Cami to a place specifically in the afternoon so that you could try to hack into, use public WiFi to do this?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
MR. AGNIFILO: How -- you said yesterday that you had used, Fluffy had driven you on a number of occasions to different places where you could use the public WiFi, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I asked how many. Do you remember how many times he drove you to places to use the public WiFi?
MR. AGNIFILO: Describe to the jury what's the importance of using a public WiFi when doing this?
DANIELA: Public -- the importance of using a public WiFi was so that it could not be traced back to my WiFi. So any kind of internet connection can be traced to an IP address. So, obviously, if I'm going to connection from the same IP address and it's my home address, that can be traced back. So since this was a hacking, I didn't want it to get back to me so I was using either public WiFi or just similar WiFi even if it wasn't public, say, for example, in a library where it takes a password but just not my own.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what you would do is you wouldn't have to go into the establishment, right? You could pick the WiFi up if you were able to park close enough to the place itself, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you that a number of times, yes?
MR. AGNIFILO: So, in other words, you would go in a car, you would go near the establishment, in the parking lot or someplace close, and you would get access to that place's WiFi, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember being in a car with Fluffy and Cami when you did this?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling Fluffy or Cami that it was important to try to do it in the afternoon when there were a lot of people in the establishment?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall doing this mostly in the afternoon when you would go and use a public WiFi?
MR. AGNIFILO: When would you do it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who did you go with? Other than Fluffy, who else did you go with?
DANIELA: I remember, I remember, at times, Kristin. Again, I remember Karen Unterreiner as well and I remember going by myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you ever remember being in the car with Cami?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Not one single time?
MS. PENZA: Asked and answered.
MR. AGNIFILO: Never, is your testimony? You were never in a car with Cami doing this?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said at one point that you hacked into your older sister Marianna's e-mail account, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us what did you do with Marianna and hacking?
DANIELA: I don't -- I may have. I don't remember if I actually was able to get into her e-mail account. I hacked into her Facebook account as I said before.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So you hacked into her Facebook account?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is something that you discussed with Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So you never discussed it in person with Keith you're saying?
MR. AGNIFILO: You discussed it with Keith over e-mail?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And the concern was that Marianna was essentially using Keith's password to do something, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Wasn't the concern that Marianna was accessing Keith's e-mail account?
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, when you hacked into Marianna's Facebook, did you find that she was accessing Keith's e-mail account?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that wasn't discussed beforehand that that was specifically what you were looking for?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now -- and you hacked into Marianna's Facebook account when, exactly?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. This is already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 1539.
All right. 1539 is an e-mail. It's from, it's from you, it's to Keith, right? Do you see that there?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Just so that everyone can see it, it's Government Exhibit 1539. And you say, November 1, 2008, you say: I am on my way to Flintlock now to check the computer. Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What are you talking about?
DANIELA: I am talking about -- I think it's pretty self-explanatory. I'm going to go and check the log of the infected computer.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you sent an attachment. This exhibit shows an attachment. It says: OutlogFile.txt, T-X-T, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And the attachment I think you described on direct examination --
MR. AGNIFILO: -- is several pages but one of the pages is this, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And tell us, again, what is this?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so this is the raw file of Marianna's Facebook account, right? This is data from Marianna's Facebook account?
MR. AGNIFILO: What is this? Where is it from?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But you hacked into her Facebook account, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is the material that you got from that hacking effort, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead, explain.
THE COURT: Can you keep that up on the screen?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. Sure. Absolutely.
THE COURT: Please.
MR. AGNIFILO: Here you go.
DANIELA: So I think the causality is in reverse. So the key logger is installed in the computer. The key logger will actually log everything that happens in the computer. So she could be logging into Facebook, she could be logging into the e-mail, she could be logging into a local application, she could be writing stuff, typing stuff, playing Solitaire. Everything that happens in the computer is logged on that file.
From that file, which as you asked me before, that's when I went on to check, I was going to go check that file, this is that file. In this file is contained the information, user name and password if she typed it which she did in order to be able to access her Facebook account. Then the hacking occurs. So first -- sorry.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
DANIELA: First it's a key log intrusion so it's a log of the computer. And then from that, it's a hacking into whatever other service I have obtained from that information.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
THE COURT: So let me just put a finer point on it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
THE COURT: So this document shows every key stroke that the person at the computer struck on the keyboard.
THE COURT: And from that, you ascertained passwords and so forth which you then could use to access Facebook or an e-mail account or a bank account?
THE COURT: Online?
THE COURT: And so forth.
THE COURT: That's what a key logger provides for you.
THE COURT: So and that's what you installed with malware in that computer, is that right?
THE COURT: All right. Let's keep going.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so you sent, you sent this data to Keith. There's several pages here and we looked at the first page. This is the second page. Right? You sent all this to Keith --
MR. AGNIFILO: -- by e-mail.
Did you ever send him similar information from anyone other than Marianna?
MR. AGNIFILO: Any way.
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, let's start with e-mail. Did you ever send him via e-mail similar information of the key strokes for anyone other than Marianna?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you never sent him anything from the keystrokes of James Loperfido's hack, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm asking right now for e-mail.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you didn't send him anything from James Loperfido, that hacking from, by e-mail, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't send him anything about the hacking of Edgar Bronfman via e-mail, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: So the only material you sent from hacking via e-mail relates to your older sister, Marianna, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, it's fair to say that Keith never viewed the e-mail accounts themselves?
MR. AGNIFILO: For -- well, Marianna we established because you sent him the keystrokes, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: For Edgar Bronfman or for James Loperfido or for -- he also did Kristin Snyder, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
DANIELA: So, for my sister Marianna, I believe he did. I wasn't there to presence it but I sent him the user name and password and I didn't access it myself but, again, I wasn't there to see it so I can't say for sure. For Edgar Bronfman, no, I don't believe he personally ever accessed the e-mail. For James Loperfido, I also don't think he ever accessed that e-mail.
And you said Kristin Snyder?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. Kristin Snyder.
DANIELA: Kristin Snyder, I never accessed that e-mail. That was obtained in a different way. I recall him accessing that e-mail but I can't say for sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, but you agree with me you never e-mailed him the way that you did with Marianna's information; you never e-mailed him anything from the Kristin Snyder hacking?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Who did do the hacking?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't do it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And in regard to James O'Hara, that was not successful, you never got access into the computer of James O'Hara, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. I'm sorry. Joe O'Hara.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, is it fair to say that Marianna's key logger, you put it on Pam Cafritz's computer?
DANIELA: I don't remember exactly which computer. Marianna didn't own anything so, I mean, Pam's computer is Marianna's computers. It was who was using it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So do you recall it being Pam's computer?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember if they both used the same computers?
DANIELA: I don't remember. Their personal computers, I don't remember. I was told just where to put it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, they were living together at the time at 3 Flintlock, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And the computer was at 3 Flintlock, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I want to talk for a moment about this Ben Myers stuff. You and Ben Myers started moving in the direction of having a relationship at some point in 2006, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: How would you put it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is there a better way to put it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you and he were having communications, written communications with each other in October of 2006, correct, among other times?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who is Megan Mumford?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Ben Myers and Megan Mumford have a relationship of some sort?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was the nature of that relationship?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were they engaged at some point?
MR. AGNIFILO: And were they, were they boyfriend and girlfriend at the time that you started a relationship with Ben Myers?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you find out later?
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point, while you were having a relationship with Ben Myers, did you come to learn that Ben Myers was also having a relationship with Megan Mumford?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember? Wasn't this an issue? Wasn't this a big issue that was being discussed between you and Keith and you and other people that Ben Myers had a girlfriend named Megan Mumford?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it was discussed over and over and over by Keith and you and between other people and you, isn't that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever talk to anyone else other than Keith? Did you ever talk to Karen Unterreiner or Lauren or anyone else about this?
DANIELA: Not in the way I talked about it with Keith, Keith with me, not the same degree or intensity.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. But you spoke to Karen Unterreiner about it, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you speak to Nancy Salzman about it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. This is a document in evidence. It is Government's Exhibit 1559. It's already in evidence.
This is Government 1559. This is a series of e-mails between yourself and Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is just the first of several pages. Let me zoom out so you get a little more perspective:
Do you remember at one point, there was a discussion between you and Keith of you going to a party and you end up going to the party and you sent him a number of e-mails about it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think that you made -- what's "rosea" -- what is this -- is it rosca?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what is it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you can put little toys in it or things like that?
DANIELA: Yes. Yes. As I said, one puts little figurines that mean different things inside the bread.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you, you and Keith were having discussion. -- let me go to the first e-mail about this. And you covered this on direct.
I'm looking at the e-mail here from January 7, 2009, 3:53 a.m. let me zoom in on it a little bit. Sorry.
Keith says: So what did you do? I hoped you did not just go to sleep. If I were in such a situation I would find it impossible to sleep, possibly for days. Also, you also did not tell me what happened at the party. I heard B got a ring.
"B" is Ben, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you write: No, I don't know what, I don't know what to do. I keep thinking. Didn't know about the ring. I guess I didn't stay that long.
Right? Did you write that?
(Continued on next page.)
EXAMINATION CONTINUES BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you write: There was nothing significant about the party except when I was explaining to Megan -- that's Megan Mumford, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: When I was explaining to Megan what the little toys she might get in the Rosca meant, she said, Oh, I want the thimble.
And you write: I quite automatically responded, oh, no, you want the ring.
Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that a reference to the fact that she wants to marry Ben?
DANIELA: What? No, and may I -- I'm not familiar -- I mean I read what you just read to me, but is it possible to read the beginning of the e-mail.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure, absolutely.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's fine.
Here, let me give it to you in order. So this is -- and we can look at any part you want.
MR. AGNIFILO: You know, what I can do, I can give the witness the hard copy. Maybe that's easier.
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me give you the whole thing.
May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no.
(Pause.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So the question is, when she said I want the thimble, you said to Megan Mumford, no, you want the ring, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's what you wrote to Keith that you said?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you say that to her?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what was that a reference to?
DANIELA: I believe, I hope I'm not wrong, the thimble meant you are going to be single. Like if you got the thimble, like you're gonna be single for the rest of the year. If you get a ring it means that you're going to get married that year, so...
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you say after -- if you still have the document in front of you, after you said no, you want the ring, what did you go on to say after that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
DANIELA: Sure. I'll read the excerpt. So I said:
There was nothing significant about the party, except when I was explaining to Megan what the little toys she might get in the Rosca meant. She said, oh, I want the thimble. So she wants to be single. I quite automatically responded: Oh, no, you want the ring. Ben was standing nearby, not really a part of the conversation, don't know if he heard or what it meant to either of them.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, one of the things that Keith said to you was that he believed that it was wrong for you to start a relationship with Ben when he was with Megan Mumford, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And he was upset about it for other reasons as well, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you described on direct examination, at one point when you told him, he ran into the bathroom of his house and he locked himself in, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: That was all -- that was all over -- over Ben Myers, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And this is inside 3 Flintlock?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And he's locked himself in the bathroom and you're trying to get in, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, so he was upset about it, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he expressed to you many different times, in many different ways, that he was upset about it, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then he asked you to try to make amends for doing this, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: He asked you to fix it, fix the problem that you've created, that was his -- that's what he said to you, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you understand that to mean?
DANIELA: What did I understand that to mean?
Well, what I understood -- and it's because he very plainly spelled it out -- was that I needed to not like Ben, stop liking Ben. Like him, love him. Go back to him. You know? So, in the full scope of things I think that this is quite minor.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I understand, but my point is this is an issue that existed in several different ways; one way was that Keith was hurt and expressed hurt to you over this situation with Ben Myers, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Another part of it is that Ben Myers had a relationship of some sort with Megan Mumford, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Didn't you and Keith -- and you reviewed the e-mails on direct examination -- have discussion about how you had dishonored the relationship between Megan and Ben?
MR. AGNIFILO: Wasn't one of the things that you discussed with Keith, and you discussed this on direct examination, these communications between the two of you of the fact that you had dishonored the relationship between Megan Mumford and Ben Myers?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you feel that you had dishonored the relationship?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that because you didn't think they had a relationship?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you found out later that they had had a relationship, didn't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you do anything -- did you think that you should have done something in light of that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And wasn't that precisely, wasn't one of the things that Keith was urging you to rethink, that you should take it upon yourself to try to rectify in whatever way you saw fit the fact that Megan and Ben had a relationship and that you had pursued a relationship with Ben simultaneous to that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Absolutely.
Wasn't one of the things that Keith talked to you about the fact that Ben and Megan had a relationship and that while their relationship was going on you also had a relationship with Ben Myers?
DANIELA: No, I don't think that's representative of what was -- of what was going on with that particular issue.
MR. AGNIFILO: Don't you remember having e-mail -- I mean we can go back and look at it, but I'm just trying to see you if you remember, e-mail communication with Keith about that you had dishonored the relationship between Megan and Ben?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why were you having that conversation with him? Why were you saying that you, yourself, have dishonored the relationship between Megan and Ben? Why did you say that?
DANIELA: Okay, I think I explained it before, but I can explain it again.
I believe in that particular issue, as far as the relationship with Ben and Megan, Ben and Megan had a relationship before I had the very brief -- I guess you could call it a relationship with Ben, and I believe they had a relationship after that, not for the few times that I was with Ben. So the issues that were being discussed with Keith -- again, they were all overblown exaggerations of what he attributed to be my ethical breach which was just piling on to like all the damages he wanted to put on me.
But why was I having that conversation, which was precisely your question? Because I was increasingly confused and beaten up, both by his communications and the isolation and the coaching that I was receiving. So I, you know, was trying to at times humbly to find out what I need to do and what I had done wrong, but the truth is I hadn't done anything wrong in that regard.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Keith's point to you is, just like you said here now, you didn't -- you weren't taking response -- whether you were wrong or whether you weren't wrong, Keith wanted you to own whatever it is that you did, correct? That's what he kept saying to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: He -- let me ask you another question.
Did you have conversations with anyone other than Keith, specifically Karen Unterreiner, about the fact that you had a relationship with Ben Myers at a time when Ben Myers was having a relationship with someone else?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember having that conversation with Karen?
MR. AGNIFILO: You think you only discussed it with Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember having a discussion at all with your father about this?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: No? With anyone else in your family, any of your siblings?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just with Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: And based on what you remember, one of the things Keith said to you is what you had done, in his estimation, was wrongful because you started a relationship with someone who was in a relationship, right? That's what he would say to you, in sum and substance, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you, in written communication, agreed and said that you had to restore honor to Ben's relationship with Megan?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you say that?
DANIELA: Because I didn't want to be shunned anymore, I wanted to get back some sort of life. I was trying to do whatever it took to get my life back.
MR. AGNIFILO: And these are discussions that you're having with Keith in what year?
DANIELA: I mean, it was a span of many years with lots of communications, so I can't pinpoint it exactly when.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is well before you entered the room, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Two years before, one year before?
DANIELA: The whole span of time before the room was all communications about Ben, so it's hard for me to tell when we were discussing what.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you say that it's all about Ben, but there were a number of things that were being discussed in the year or so before you entered the room; isn't that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What were the few more things that you can recall?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your program, what's your understanding of what your program was?
DANIELA: My program, at that point, was to lose weight and to do book reports and to fix my ethical breach.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your ethical breach being what?
DANIELA: My ethical breach as a -- as a -- as he portrayed it to me, like as he was -- was ever evolving. It wasn't a static thing. It really started with me kissing Ben Myers.
MR. AGNIFILO: Didn't it really start with you stealing $6,000 in cash from Karen Unterreiner's drawer? Isn't that really when it started?
MR. AGNIFILO: Wasn't there a great deal of discussion about the fact that you kept taking things that didn't belong to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Wasn't that a topic of discussion between you and Keith and you and other people?
MR. AGNIFILO: Wasn't that a topic of conversation between you and your father?
MR. AGNIFILO: When it came to the food and when it came to -- just food or other things as well?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what food exactly had you taken that got you in trouble with your father?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your father was angry about this, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Say it again.
MR. AGNIFILO: So your father was this angry at you because you had taken hummus?
DANIELA: My father -- I -- I don't believe that. I don't believe he was angry because I was taking hummus, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you had taken things from stores, that's what you and he talked about?
MR. AGNIFILO: So what did you take that made your father so angry?
DANIELA: Again, I don't think that's an accurate representation, but I remember I took stuff from the fridge repeatedly. I took food from -- from the house that wasn't mine.
MR. AGNIFILO: And your father and you had discussions only about the fact that you had taken food from the house?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just about -- did you and your father have discussions where your father said you keep taking things that don't belong to you and you don't stop, you keep doing it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Only the food?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you took food and you remember it being hummus?
MR. AGNIFILO: From where?
MR. AGNIFILO: Where your family lived?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so you're telling us that you were in trouble for taking food from the refrigerator where your family lived?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's it, you didn't do anything else?
MR. AGNIFILO: So when we looked at that little list of things yesterday and you said that you were going to pay back things that you had taken from Wal-Mart and Marshalls, and places like that, you made that up? You didn't take anything from those places?
MR. AGNIFILO: I mean, we talked about it yesterday, you wrote that though, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you write it?
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote that you were going to pay back specific stores in the area and you don't know why you wrote it?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Did anyone force you to write it?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You chose to make a list of things --
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is what we were looking at yesterday, it's Government Exhibit 907, page 109.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, we looked at this yesterday?
MR. AGNIFILO: Absolutely. I'll give it to you.
MR. AGNIFILO: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
(Pause. )
MR. AGNIFILO: So what did you write there, and you can read it there under stores. What did you write?
DANIELA: I wrote stores, pay back what taken, and it's a list. It says Hannaford, Wal-Mart, Arlene's, Marshalls, Cohoes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And why did you write those particular stores?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are those stores that you're familiar with?
MR. AGNIFILO: Which ones?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Wal-Mart you're familiar with; you called Ben Myers once from Wal-Mart, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: So that was a place where you went, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you take anything from Wal-Mart that didn't belong to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Marshalls is a store you're familiar with, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't take anything from Marshalls?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, when you wrote that sheet of paper, what is that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. If you still need to see it, we can do that, otherwise I would do it so --
MR. AGNIFILO: Actually, do we have another copy? We might not have another copy.
MR. AGNIFILO: But if you need it, that's fine.
So -- and you wrote that -- you wrote that while you were in the room, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: There's a letter that goes with it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you write it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who had you intended to give it to?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, it was attached to one of your letters. It was to Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And so this was a plan to do what exactly?
MR. AGNIFILO: So what's the first entry there?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just it might be easier if we can all look at it together. Is that possible?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
THE COURT: Can we get a date on this, on the cover?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, one second, Judge.
It says September 30, 2010.
THE COURT: September?
MR. AGNIFILO: 30.
THE COURT: 2010?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. Let's just put the whole thing.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: This is -- it says Keith, September 30, 2010. That's your handwriting, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you wrote this?
MR. AGNIFILO: I am going to the last page of this letter.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And then at the bottom, you say, "with love, Bobi". Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you say, "PS: A copy of the referenced sketched plan attached." With a smiley face, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then attached to this letter is this plan that we've been talking about, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, these are things that, you know, where it says "fix ethical breaches," I'm looking right here
(indicating.)
MR. AGNIFILO: You have next to it: Talk to all people/Ben. Right? That's one of the things that Keith wanted you to do, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Book reports, you have that; that's one of the things that Keith wanted you to do, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Digital archive, what is that?
DANIELA: That is also one of the things Keith wanted me to do, which is an archival list documenting -- documenting his life.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Video forum project, movie filming; is that another thing Keith wanted you to do?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then for Nancy, it says: Work, $5,000 worth of time. I think you discussed this on direct examination. Was there some idea that you might owe money for certain services that Nancy had rendered to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: How would you phrase it?
DANIELA: I would say that the coaching that I was -- the coaching that she gave me later became part of what they said my breach was, so I think I was trying to quantify it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then it says: Gozer. And Gozer is who again?
MR. AGNIFILO: What is the entry under Gozer to the right?
DANIELA: It says: Work? Raw food (unprompted). Frozen food. Chores? Progr, which is I understand programming, question mark. Community? Personal assistant?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you write those things next to Gozer?
DANIELA: I think those are things I could do for her to try and, again, repair my ethical breaches against her.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, and then the next entry is Pam. And then to the right what does it say?
DANIELA: It says: Work? Be available and call often to offer help. Clean Jness? Build friendship to support.
MR. AGNIFILO: And clean Jness is reference to the Jness room?
MR. AGNIFILO: What could it be?
DANIELA: Clean Jness could be clean the Jness website. It could be clean the Jness facility. Those are two things I can think of.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, and so there are all these different entries for different people.
We have Papa, this is a reference to your father, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And what does it say next to him?
DANIELA: It says: Make food daily or once, twice per week and freeze. Do his chores, clean, do laundry, take out trash, et cetera. Sagitta.com website to pay 500 debt and more -- don't know what that is. Keep contact with often his family and at least one time a week. When out of here explain absence. Pay for watch repair.
Oh, that -- take out the trash, et cetera, for seven months.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you write those things next to Papa?
DANIELA: Taking responsibility. Those were things I thought I could do to fix that ethical breach, I guess.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then under Papa is Marvy, Marianna, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you write for her?
DANIELA: We skipped a bunch. I wrote for her have time with her one time per week, go out or something.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then for your brother Fluffy, what did you write for him?
DANIELA: It says: 400 for stolen food. In parentheses, stereo. Business needs website? Clean office? Make food for freezing. Make sandwich on way to the office every day, smiley face, heart.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you write that for Fluffy?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then for all family you wrote certain things. What did you write for them?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then under all family, it says: All animals, and you say: Convert three people to vegetarianism. Correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then it says: Musicians and authors, buy original material of illegal downloads.
Right, that's what you wrote?
MR. AGNIFILO: Had you downloaded music or other material illegally?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you did it without paying for it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then stores, you write: Pay back what taken. Hannaford, Wal-Mart, Arlene's, Marshalls, Cohoes. Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, Arlene's is an art supply store in Colony, New York; isn't it?
MR. AGNIFILO: You never bought art supplies there?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why did you --
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you put Arlene's among the stores there where you write pay back what taken from those particular stores?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you agree with me that the other entries, you know why you wrote all of them?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who's Daniel Brown?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you write for him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you write that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why do you owe him $80?
DANIELA: Because, as I remember, he -- he went there I think to take an intensive, or to live, and he bought a bike. And then he was gonna leave and I was gonna buy his bike and he left the bike with me and I never paid for it.
MR. AGNIFILO: So that's something that you wrote because it corresponded to something that actually happened, right? You owed him $80 for the Mexi-bike, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: But there is nothing you can tell us about why you wrote pay back what taken from these particular stores, nothing?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, did you discuss with your father the fact that your father wanted you to stay in a room in the family's house until you did certain things?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who did you talk to about that?
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you talk to your father about?
MR. AGNIFILO: In regard to the room. In regard to you staying in a room in your family's house, what did you and your father talk about that?
MR. AGNIFILO: It was your father and who else?
DANIELA: It was -- I remember it was my father, my mother, Lauren Salzman and Karen. Those are the people I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: Unterreiner, okay. And what was discussed during that discussion?
DANIELA: That I -- that I needed to go in that room under the terms I already described, or else. That was the actual discussion.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did they say that you could do certain things and leave the room?
DANIELA: Certain things to leave the room -- no, I wasn't given an actual path to go outside of the room. I was given a very vague idea of the activity, which was I should write and I should fix my ethical breach.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were told to write and to fix your ethical breaches, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what ethical breaches did you understand those to be?
DANIELA: At that point, as I said, my ethical breach had morphed into ethical breaches and it was a snowball of ethical breaches. And what I understood was -- was very little. I was very confused and pretty broken already. I had been isolated from people for a long time, and I -- I -- I think I thought I was bad and to some degree all the beat-ups had worked, but also I was very angry because I knew that really there was nothing that I could do because for so long I had been trying and everything was shut down and everything was just disregarded.
So you ask me now what I thought then what was my ethical breach, I would tell you I had no clue which was why the idea of the room and going in it until I fixed it was incredibly frightening.
MR. AGNIFILO: How old were you -- when you went into the room, how old were you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had chosen to be in this country illegally, that was your choice, right?
(Continuing on the following page.)
(Continuing)
MR. AGNIFILO: No one forced you to do that.
MR. AGNIFILO: You did that because that was your choice to come into this country illegally and to live here illegally; right?
That's what you wanted.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when this country took away your visa, rather than waiting a year and reapplying, you decided to come into the country illegally; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Knowing that once you came in to the country illegally, you would be here illegally; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't make any efforts while -- after you snuck in over the border from Canada, you didn't make any efforts to make yourself legal; did you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you speak to anybody about trying to become legal?
MR. AGNIFILO: You made no efforts that you can recall to make yourself legal in this country.
THE COURT: I am sorry. Was this once she re-entered the country illegally?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Once you entered on Christmas Eve 2004, you entered illegally, you made no efforts to try to be here legally; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. Because to do that, you would have had to -- it was your was it your understanding you would have had to have left the country and gotten a visa to come back; right?
DANIELA: I don't know what the -- what -- what -- what it would have taken. I don't know if I have to leave or stay. I don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you didn't explore that possibility at all; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: So did you talk to your parents about this?
MR. AGNIFILO: About trying to be in the country legally; to try to make your illegal status not illegal.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you don't recall if you spoke to any lawyers about this?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at some point you -- when you're in the room, you write -- you write to Keith pretty much every day?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you -- and I think you covered this on direct examination. You're writing him, you're telling him that you love him; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you love him?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you're telling him something that's not true; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You're telling him that you look up to him; that you think he is a good man with good morals; correct?
DANIELA: I -- I -- I don't know all those -- all those words that actually write, I don't know, maybe.
MR. AGNIFILO: We can go through them, there are hundreds and hundreds of letters.
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote in addition to telling him that you loved him, that you thought he was a good man and had good morality; words to that effect.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're you were saying positive things about Keith, to Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you feel those things at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. I'm going to show you what's in evidence. It's Government's Exhibit 907, page 4.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: It's already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 907.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. This is January 1st, 2010. Now, is this before or after you go in the room?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Okay. And you had started writing to Keith before you went in the room, correct, on a regular basis?
MR. AGNIFILO: I didn't ask you about the instructed. I just asked you, you have been writing to Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what you write here is: My dear love, just a few hours ago I was still getting ready to go down to Mexico. Probably never to see you or any of the people I love ever again.
Is that true? Were you thinking about going to Mexico at this point in time?
MR. AGNIFILO: You can read the whole thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me see if I can get the whole thing on the page, hold on.
There you go. Let me see if I can get it a little bit bigger; okay?
MR. AGNIFILO: Can you see that okay?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Here, I'll give it to you.
May I approach?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote at that letter to Keith; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you need it in front of you or if we put it on the machine so everyone can see it? If you can't see it, I will zoom in for you.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So, you wrote: Just a few hours ago I was still getting ready to go down to Mexico probably to never see you or any of the people I love ever again.
Is that true?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember if it was true?
DANIELA: There were many times I wanted to go down to Mexico, so it could have. But I don't remember this particular instance.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Then you say: From my love for you and what is unfinished between us, I gather the strength to something against my own momentum and be honest with myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: To go against my own momentum and be honest with myself. I express my determination to stay and fix things and my desire to all that is necessary.
Was that true?
MR. AGNIFILO: You can provide context.
DANIELA: Okay.
So at this point, I have been -- I had been talking to Keith for years via e-mail. I think you got a little bit of a taste of that. I haven't gone through all of them, but that was the nature of the back and forth.
Then he sends me a final letter with this big instruction of what I need to do. Then my parents and Karen are on my program, and if this is so, this is a familiar situation, though again, I don't remember what this exactly was tied to.
I wanted to go to Mexico it sounds like and then I'm talked out it. And then it's heavily coaching. And then it's a lot of just and you need to fix this, and you need to fix this, and then I probably write that after all of that.
The truth of the matter is, this letter, January 1st, 2010, I'm already very isolated from everybody. I have no possessions. I have nothing. I am very confused. I'm very angry. I'm pretty broken. So all of this is part of what I know I'm expected to say, I know I'm expected to feel, but also what I'm directly being told. You should fix your breach. You should write to Keith. You should stay here and do this. I think I explained most of that already. But this is a context to what I'm saying here.
So you asked me, oh, well, did you write this? Did you mean it? It's not completely disingenuous in that I'm thinking, I'm sitting there and thinking, well, I don't really want to do this, but I'm going to write that I do. It's not that simple.
It's a pretty complex situation where I am getting drilled from all sides about what I should be doing, what I have done, how bad I am. And then what I do with myself, and sometimes I went, you know, I gasped for air and maybe I wanted to leave; but there's a tightly controlled environment around me. What you see this letter is a product of all of that. It's not just a simple meditation by myself in complete freedom in deciding what to do.
MR. AGNIFILO: You could have left. You were 24 years old. No one was forcing you to stay in Clifton Park. You could have left.
MR. AGNIFILO: You could have left. Couldn't you have just left?
MR. AGNIFILO: You couldn't leave. Were you locked someplace?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you threatened with something happening to you if you left?
MR. AGNIFILO: What were you threatened with?
DANIELA: I had no money, no papers. And I was threatened with both being sent that way back to Mexico and also complete cutoff of communication with everybody I knew. That was the threat.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you say no papers, whose fault is that? Whose fault is it that you had no papers?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who is that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember who took all your stuff?
DANIELA: No, sometimes stuff would just disappear. My iPod disappeared. My computer was just taken. I don't know who has my stuff. To this day, I don't know who has my stuff. I never got my stuff back.
MR. AGNIFILO: What stuff are we talking about? You keep saying my papers. What papers?
MR. AGNIFILO: Like what?
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead.
DANIELA: In my things I had my birth certificate, which is really the most important part of it. And some other personal papers. I had the little possessions that I had.
MR. AGNIFILO: So when you snuck over from Canada, you brought your birth certificate with you?
MR. AGNIFILO: So -- and where was your birth certificate before they came in, in the middle of the night and took everything?
DANIELA: It was in -- as I remember, I had a series of, like, folders that a long time before I had purchased at Office Max. It was one of these like accordion, I think, like file folders with more folders inside. And there were a few other things in there. But that is where I had my, you know, my personal identification stuff.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ask your father and your mother for your birth certificate?
MR. AGNIFILO: At any time? January 1st, 2010? Any time in January 2010? February 2010? Did you ask your father or your mother for your birth certificate?
MR. AGNIFILO: January 2010. As you're writing this letter, rather than writing a letter, did it occur to you to say, hey, mom, hey, dad, can I have my birth certificate?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever ask while you were -- either before you went in the room or while you were in the room, your mother or your father, for your birth certificate? Did you ask them for it?
DANIELA: Before I was in the room, or while I was in the room, did I ask for my birth certificate.
I don't think I asked -- can I ask and answer it separately? Those are two different instances.
I don't think I asked for it, or I would have asked for it while I was in the room, though, I don't remember. I don't see what the use would have been. I really just wanted to get out of the room.
And before, I did ask for their help, which -- I don't remember exactly if I would have asked point-blank for that, but implied that I needed my ID and I needed some money and I needed some help to get out of the country.
MR. AGNIFILO: I am not asking if you implied.
Did you ask --
MR. AGNIFILO: -- before you went into the room, did you ask your parents, I would like my birth certificate? Please give it to me. I'm 24 years old. I'm your daughter. I would like my birth certificate.
MR. AGNIFILO: The next thing you say is: I never really wanted to leave. And that is the truth. It is, however, also true that I am stuck in my healing process, which is the reason such a deadline and consequence was imposed on me to the end of the year.
Do you remember there being something that you were supposed to do by the end of the year, presumably the end of 2009?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at this point, do you want to go to Mexico?
January, early January 2010, do you want to go to Mexico?
DANIELA: Again, I'm reading this, but I don't remember the situation tied to this. And I believe I already said that.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I'm not talking about the letter. I'm saying in January of 2010, did you want to go to Mexico or did you want to stay in Clifton Park?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. This is Government's Exhibit 907, page 67.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: If you can see it on the screen, we can do it on the screen. If not, I'm happy to bring the document to you.
Here's the whole page. If there's a second page to this, I will show you that as well.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you want me to give it to you and then you can take a look at it and then I will ask you some questions about it?
MR. AGNIFILO: May I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
THE COURT: If you have a conversation, you have to leave the room and not come back. I do not want any discussions of anything in the gallery. If I see it again, you will be barred from the courtroom.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: You read the whole letter?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what are you writing to Keith in that letter?
DANIELA: A lot of things. I'm writing -- it starts off telling him that I borrowed a camera and I -- and I never gave it back and that Pam was going to bring it back.
I keep going about how -- on and on about why I -- when I tried to understand my breaches, I tell him about a little tree, a little seedling, a little sprout that my father brought me and a little avocado plant that I have in my room and I go on and on about that.
And I tell him I feel I miss my family. I tell him I wouldn't want to be in that room. I tell him that I'm trying to be patient. I tell him some reasons that I think maybe it's not so bad in there. And I tell him I want to fix everything.
And that -- and that I -- I'm wondering if maybe I haven't done everything because I am not coming out, but I'm just reporting all of that to him. And my weight.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you said that you told him it's not so bad in the room?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you write specifically?
DANIELA: I wrote -- hold on. I miss my family more than ever. I want to go and talk to and apologize to all the people I love and have hurt more than ever and perhaps as sincerely as ever. I want to come out of this room, but also I want to heal my breaches and people are being kind enough to guide me in doing this right. I have decided to be humble and learn to do it.
So right now I'm building my inner world and I continue thinking and I am being patient at a cost. So being here isn't so bad. I know there are people who love me and care for me, guiding me, and I have decided not to trust -- I have decided that not to trust would be prideful. Thinking I know when I am ready would be prideful too. The truth is I suck at healing my breaches and fixing my mistakes and that is quite an understatement.
You will agree I am sure, in fact, I am not very good at creating what I want in my life at all. So I am here to learn. My most recent lesson was the importance of my word and right now it seems to me that would fix everything. But I am still here, so maybe it isn't. Or maybe I am supposed to stay in here until I build it some. I don't know. But I have decided to be patient and grow, so here I am. This is me now. Love BoBo.
MR. AGNIFILO: And these are the letters -- you can take a look at them. These are the letters that you wrote to Keith both right before you went in the room, but mostly while you were in the room? These.
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote him a lot of letters. And you say in these letters some of the things you just read from that letter, in different ways at different times.
Do you remember writing all of those things? I mean, day in, day out?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Sometimes you said you didn't want to be in the room. You wanted to leave. You didn't want to stay; right? You would write him that many times; fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then sometimes you would say this is the best thing that could happen to me because it's hard, but I do have something to learn. You would say that in different ways at different times; fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: You often expressed that you missed your family, right, in these letters?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just like you read in the letter that you just read; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you also said that maybe this is for the best and you'll have better relationships with everybody once you get out; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. And you wrote him pretty much every day for the entire time you were in the room; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point you said that your mother came in the next room in the other bedroom upstairs; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And if you had to estimate, how long after you started being in your room was your mother in the other bedroom upstairs?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who was living in the house? It was your mother, your father; right?
DANIELA: I actually don't know exactly who was living there. I know -- I can tell you what noises I heard.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what did you hear?
DANIELA: I heard Cami downstairs. If I had to say, I would say she was living downstairs, but I don't know.
I heard my father downstairs and he would come up with my mom, too. And if I had to bet, I would say he was also living downstairs, but I don't know how that would have worked.
And I thought maybe them, the rest of the people I think were just coming in and out.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because Fluffy was living sort of nearby. So he wasn't living in the house at the time; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was Fluffy living in the house at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, you didn't stay in the room the whole time; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You went downstairs from time to time. You moved around the house from time to time; didn't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: So go ahead, tell me what's accurate.
DANIELA: I stayed in the room for almost two years. I went out of the room a handful of times during two years. So I wouldn't say from time to time is accurate.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever go out the room through the window?
MR. AGNIFILO: Never?
MR. AGNIFILO: You always went out the door and down the stairs?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes? And by handful, you mean less than five times during the entire two years you were in the room?
MR. AGNIFILO: And where did you go?
DANIELA: I went -- a couple of times I went outside. So where -- outside, fresh air outside; plants.
The other times was just going out of the bedroom and into an area of the house.
MR. AGNIFILO: You went to the dentist at one point?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And in addition to that, you went outside a number of times?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
MR. AGNIFILO: You never met anybody? Never went outside and met anyone?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Never met Ben?
MR. AGNIFILO: Never? Not one time?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you never went outside and sort of walked around the house?
MR. AGNIFILO: Not -- never, not once?
MR. AGNIFILO: You went outside. You left the house. You were outside.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, but how many times?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what would cause you to choose to do that when you did it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at any point did you -- you never asked your parents for your birth certificate?
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point you made a decision you wanted to leave the room; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because by this point your mother had left the room; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you recall your mother leaving the room around in July, July 9th, 2011? Do you remember that being around the time that your mother left the room?
DANIELA: I'm sorry. Again, my sense of time in there is very fuzzy. I don't -- I don't remember exact dates of periods of time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we're going to be on this for a while, so if you want to take a break now, we can take a break.
THE COURT: Yes. That is fine. It is probably the right time.
All rise for the jury.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
(Jury exits.)
(In open court; outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: All right. The witness may stand down. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Anything before we break?
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing from us.
MS. PENZA: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Ten minutes, thank you.
(Recess taken.)
(Continued on following page.)
(In open court; jury not present.)
THE COURT: Okay. Anything before we start?
MS. PENZA: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. Let's bring in the witness, please.
(Witness resumes the stand.)
THE COURT: Please bring in the jury.
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
You may continue your cross-examination, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
THE COURT: The witness is reminded she is still under oath.
(Continued on next page.)
DANIELA , the witness, having been previously duly sworn, resumed as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Daniela, on occasion you'd leave the room and you would go to a Stewart's shop that was not far from the house at Wilton, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Do you remember, do you remember being interviewed by the FBI in the presence of your lawyer, Mr. Glazer, on June 22, 2018?
MR. AGNIFILO: I can show it to you. You were interviewed by the FBI a number of times, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Maybe 15, 16 times, if not more?
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, one of the times -- I can show this.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is just for the witness, Judge. This is 3500DF-12.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me just get it so you can see it. This is 3500DF-12.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it relates to an interview of by agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation on two different dates, June 22nd and June 24th of 2018. Do you see that there?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's the date that this report was made but if you see at the bottom, it says, Investigation on 6/22/2018. Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you recall on this particular day telling the FBI and people from the U.S. Attorney's Office that you left the room on occasion and went to a Stewart's shop near 12 Wilton? Do you remember saying that?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you page five of the report where we just saw the front page. And this is just for you, okay, and I'll point. I'm looking right here.
Just read it to yourself. Don't read it out loud. Just read it to yourself.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall telling the FBI on at least one of these occasions, you went to a Stewart's shop at 12 Wilton Court? Do you remember telling the FBI that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember also telling the FBI that you went to a Walmart?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you saying you didn't say those things to the FBI?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What do you remember saying to the FBI about going to a Stewart's shop or to a Walmart?
DANIELA: I remember saying that I remember, as it says, going out on a couple of occasions, that I didn't exactly remember where I went, that I remember places and that I remember having also traced, in my imagination, going places so I had a hard time really remembering. And I remember places like Walmart, I remember places like the Stewart's, I remember places like the Pirates' Hideout, and I remember certain roads, but I don't have full certainty of where exactly I went that couple of times other than walking around.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember having certainty when you were speaking to the FBI and telling the FBI that you went to a Stewart's shop near 12 Wilton Court? Do you remember telling them that?
MR. AGNIFILO: On at least one of these occasions, Daniela went to a Stewart's shop near 12 Wilton Court --
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you say to the FBI?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may answer.
THE COURT: Yes, please.
DANIELA: I remember telling them exactly what I remember which is, and what I don't remember, which is I remember, again, going out on a couple of occasions, I remember. I don't know exactly where I went but I remember certain places and, you now, my memory of that is not exact and that's what I told them.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you mention specifically Stewart's shop? Did you mention that specific place to the FBI?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what else? What other places did you mention?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Is it true then that on one occasion, you went out but before going out, you stole money from your father's wallet while you were in the room?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember leaving the room, stealing money from your father's wallet and then going to local businesses to purchase food?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling the FBI that you did that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember an interview at the FBI on March the 4th, 2019? We're only talking a couple of months ago.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you 3500DF-21. This is just for you to see. Let me show you the bottom. This is an investigation on 3/4/19. It relates to an interview of you on March the 4, 2019. Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: So that's the day that they made the report but the interview, the interview date, as you can see on the bottom, the interview date is March the 4th, 2019?
MR. AGNIFILO: But they made this report four days later?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just read to yourself the underlined portion. Just read it to yourself.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So my question is did you tell the FBI that you had taken money from your father's wallet and that you would use that money to go to food establishments in the area?
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you tell the FBI?
DANIELA: Okay. I told the FBI that I remember going out and I remember certain places and I remember, like -- I remember but I wasn't sure I remember, like, if I bought something there and I remember thinking, well, but if I had, then I would have had to have gotten some money so I would have had to have gotten it from, no one else but my dad. I don't even know if my dad was living there at the time. So I remember musing how that would have worked out. So in the end, I wasn't sure if that's something that I just imagined or -- because I don't know how it would have actually happened since I didn't have any money to by anything.
So I just was trying to remember. I was recollecting and trying to remember but, again, I don't remember with certainty which is, in the end, what I told them.
MR. AGNIFILO: What you told the FBI is that you purchased food --
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell the FBI that you --
THE COURT: Wait. Please. Please. Please don't read from --
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not, Judge. I'm not.
THE COURT: Excuse me. I'm not finished.
MR. AGNIFILO: I apologize.
THE COURT: Please. Please don't read from the documents that are not in evidence. Okay?
MR. AGNIFILO: I won't do that, Judge.
THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell the FBI that you were taking money from your father's wallet?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't tell the FBI that you took money from your father's wallet and went to local stores?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: That's sustained. Next question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell an agent named Charles Fontanelli -- remember? Do you know who that is?
MR. AGNIFILO: And a Michael Weniger, do you know who that is?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember speaking to them several times?
MR. AGNIFILO: They interviewed you many, many times before you testified here today, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Like maybe 15, 16 times?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you spoke to them, you spoke to them about times that you left the room, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what you just said on direct examination is you don't recall taking money from your father's wallet but you're imagining you must have because you had money to go to local stores. Isn't that what you just said?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no, not direct. Just before, what you just said to the jury a few minutes ago when I first asked you if you had taken money from your father's wallet. What do you recall about that?
MR. AGNIFILO: My question is you left the room on more than one occasion, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And on at least one occasion, you took money from your father's wallet before going outside?
MR. AGNIFILO: You're denying that?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So that's not true?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember saying that to the FBI?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That's sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling the FBI how many times you left?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember specifically how many times you did leave?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at some point, you decide you want to leave the room, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who did you talk to? Who is the first person you talked to after you made a decision that you wanted to leave the room?
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point, did you speak to your father about it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when? When? In regard to when you made the decision to leave the room, how soon after did you speak to your father about it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at some point, your father drove you toward the border, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: With Kristin Keefe, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember anything about the discussion between you and your father that led from you being inside the room to you being in a car headed south?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember anything about any discussions?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have discussions with your father before you left the room and got in a car?
It was his car, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: The question, I'm talking about when you were driven from Wilton Court to Mexico.
MR. AGNIFILO: What car was it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Does was your father driving a Mercedes-Benz at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that the car you went in?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is there anything you can tell me about any interaction with your father at all between the time you're in the room and the time you're in a car with your father and Kristin Keefe heading toward Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is there anything you can tell me about any interaction at all between you and your father between the time you left the room and you got into a car to head to Mexico?
DANIELA: What I can tell you is it was an extremely traumatic period coming out of the room and the circumstances surround it. I felt like the world was palpitating around me and I remember being drowned by the sensations and I remember just saying do whatever it is you are going to do, but I don't remember. I don't remember specifics, like, even, like, the trip. At one point, I was in one place and the next one, I was in another. So it was just a complete -- I mean, I think it's understandable given the circumstances.
MR. AGNIFILO: You can't remember anything, not a single conversation with your father, not one?
DANIELA: I remember -- as I said before, I remember a hotel. I remember, I remember what I wanted happening. I remember wanting him to hug me. I remember telling him that I had taken some money from him. I remember wanting to feel clean.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me about taking money from him. Where were you when you took the money from him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us what happened?
DANIELA: I think I was -- I think I was in the house and I think I was preparing to leave and I was between confused and panicked and I was, like, I was in a rush deciding what to take with me and I knew they were going to leave me with nothing. And I don't remember exactly where I took it from, but I definitely took it, I definitely gave it back, and that's what I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: But he, he was going to give you money. You say you knew that he wasn't going to give you money. He gave you money.
MR. AGNIFILO: He bought you a bus ticket?
MR. AGNIFILO: He gave you money. Before you got out of the car, he gave you money, isn't that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: In addition to the money you took, he gave you money, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He didn't give you any extra money?
MR. AGNIFILO: How much money did he give you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And how much did you take from his wallet?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he had you meet his accountant on the other side of the border, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you could be driven someplace safely, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he paid for a bus ticket for you to go to where you chose to be, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he gave you his watch, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at some point, you were out, you were in Mexico. Correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you started writing Keith e-mails every day or every other day, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Continued.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're now -- you're not in the room, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You're in Mexico, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show just for the witness Defense 620. It's a two page e-mail for identification, Defense 620.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is an e-mail from you to Keith Raniere, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's from June 7, 2012, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it's -- that's the first page and this is the second page, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer it.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 620 is received in evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So what you write to Keith is you say: Hi Keith. I'd like to catch you up on everything that has been going on. Mostly I wish that what is going on wasn't going on at all. I almost want to pause life and don't continue it until I can share it with someone meaningful. Otherwise I feel like I am building a way or building apart at least. You know how I feel. Marvy and I are so close. I think it is in part because we experienced life together so we are kind of made of the same fabric. I don't want to thread my life with other people, to experience things alone that I won't relate to anyone else, that I can't enjoy all by myself. I struggle with this because I know I should be okay all by myself. And in a way I think I am okay all by myself.
And it goes on and on.
MR. AGNIFILO: Of course. Let me see if I can get the whole thing there. I'll tell you. You tell me when you want to move it down and I'll see if I can get it big enough for you. You tell me when you want to move it.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: You want me to move it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. That's the end of the first page.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me when you're ready to go to the second page. Whenever you're ready.
(Pause.)
(Pause.)
(Continued on next page.)
EXAMINATION CONTINUES BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So, among other things, you write to Keith: I feel like I want to tell you every little thing -- I'm here (indicating.)
I feel like I want to tell you every little thing I have done and I'm doing. I feel torn because on one side it is stupid, why would I bother you with that. On the other side I feel I don't want to grow apart from you.
Did you mean that when you wrote it?
MR. AGNIFILO: You go on to say: I want you to know everything about me so that if maybe one day we meet again there will be no gaps, no doubts.
You wrote that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you mean it?
MR. AGNIFILO: You write, right here (indicating): I don't think this is a time to lose myself in suffering or self-pity. I am aware how close this line of thinking is to that. And it is, in the end, irrelevant, it is no excuse. I could always fix what I did and then disappear. But I first need to make things ok.
Did you mean that when you wrote it?
MR. AGNIFILO: You sent him --
MR. AGNIFILO: This is 641 for identification.
MR. AGNIFILO: You sent him an e-mail six days later.
MR. AGNIFILO: I am going to show it just to the witness.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, thank you, Judge.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: This is an e-mail from you to Keith Raniere dated June 12, 2012, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's the whole e-mail, it's all on that page.
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer it as 641, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Defense Exhibit 641 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 641 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you want a second to read that over?
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So you write: I feel like a Hitler in a Gandhi suit.
What was that supposed to mean?
DANIELA: Yes. Ooh, this means the trauma inflicted on me over the last ten years or seven years, to be more fair, is something that I could not shed as soon as I crossed the border. It wasn't immediate, the change. I think I explained that before, but I can explain it again.
This is such a painful e-mail because it is true, I was trying to be good and I was trying to build a life, but it wasn't immediate. All of the garbage, all of the abuse, all of the manipulation was still inside me. All of the words he had said, all of the expectations I had of myself, that I thought others had of me traveled with me to my new destination and I don't lose context of it. I have just been through years of intense abuse.
This is -- this is not -- none of these are complex -- none of these are simple, just what an average person would read, oh, I've been thinking about you. This is the product of a small lifetime of manipulation. And here I'm fresh off the boat, I'm fresh into a new life and it carried with me.
So it's so sad, all of this. I feel like a Hitler in a Gandhi suit. That means I am in this brand new life. I am doing all the right things. I'm treating people nicely, I'm getting a job, I'm doing all the things I want to do and I feel horrible. That is the lasting effect of what he did to me.
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't say any of those things. You agree with me, that's not what you're saying?
MR. AGNIFILO: What you're saying is: Hi, I have been thinking about you and about what I write to you. Also about my life and what I show of it to different people. I feel out of place everywhere except here writing to you. I am not completely absent as I live my days, I am just not all there with anyone. I have decided who I want to be and I am that. I consciously behave in line with that better vision of myself.
That's the words that you actually wrote are the words here, all the things you just said to the jury is not what you're writing in this e-mail to Keith on June 12th, 2012; you agree with me?
MR. AGNIFILO: What you're writing, the words that you're writing --
MR. AGNIFILO: Is what I just read.
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote him two days later on June 14th, 2012.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is identification -- 642 for identification.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's an e-mail from you to Keith Raniere on June 14th, two days after the e-mail we just looked at, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer 642.
MS. PENZA: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Defense Exhibit 642 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 642 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Take your time. I will make it big for you. There you go.
(Pause.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you working at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember what job you had in the middle of June 2012?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know how long you had been working there?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you talk about -- you talk about your family. You said that I'm going to start writing to my dad, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Did you start writing to your dad?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you talk about your dad, Cami, Fluffy and Marvy, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you writing to any of them?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you do remember you were writing to Keith, very, very often?
MR. AGNIFILO: Alright, so this is another e-mail from June 26th, 2012.
MR. AGNIFILO: It is Exhibit 621 for identification. I'll show the witness.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: It's an e-mail from you to Keith Raniere from June 26th, 2012, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer it as Defense 621.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right, Defense Exhibit 621 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 621 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Take a chance, read it to yourself.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So you say: I've been a mess in these last few days. I'm sorry I didn't write. You just went into a black hole and it was difficult getting out.
That's what you say, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you say: I have bad news about my Social Security. I need a series of original papers, which I do not have and will take me a while to get.
What papers did you need?
DANIELA: For Social Security I think I need -- it's a long list. I don't know all of the list. I think it's either official Mexican ID or a birth certificate or just the ID for which you needed the birth certificate. You need the corp. You need proof of address. You need I think a health check. And I think there's a few more. I don't know the exact list one needs to get the Social Security up-to-date.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you contact your father about any of this, did you seek help from your father in June of 2012?
DANIELA: In June 2012 -- I don't remember in June 2012. I remember at the time I was constantly asking for my papers. I don't know the exact range of times.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you asked for your papers, you were asking your father, right?
DANIELA: When I asked -- I remember asking him. I don't know if he was the only one, but that's what I remember, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, you're not asking Keith in this e-mail for your papers, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. July 7th you write Keith another e-mail.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's Defense 622, I'm sorry, for identification, Judge.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, this is from yourself to Keith, July 7th, 2012, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And take a chance --
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer this, Your Honor, as 622.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right, Defense Exhibit 622 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 622 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Take a chance to read it to yourself.
THE COURT: Just one moment. Okay.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, so in this e-mail you refer to the fact that you have written to your father asking for the papers that you need, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you say that you need to find employment again, legal this time, for which you need your birth certificate.
Right, that's what you write here?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And does this refresh your recollection if, in fact, you wrote to your father around this time?
DANIELA: It doesn't refresh my recollection, but from what I'm writing, I must have. I'm not sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you said, you made reference to finishing a project. You say down here (indicating): Right now I have a little money from a project I finished a few days ago.
Do you remember what that was?
MR. AGNIFILO: What sort of projects were you working on, you know, in the summer of 2012?
DANIELA: I was working, I had been working at the computer store and sometimes the people who went there had needs for their website, the need for a website, so I was doing some programming. That's what I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, we are going to go to the next one.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is Defense Exhibit 644. This is from July 15th. It is for identification as 644, Defense 644.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me see if I can get that a little clearer for you. Hold on.
MR. AGNIFILO: It is an e-mail from you to Keith on July 15th, 2012, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer it, Your Honor, as Defense 644.
MS. PENZA: What number was it?
MR. AGNIFILO: 644, Defense 644.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right, Defense Exhibit 644 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 644 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So you say to Keith that: I just want to make this really clear for you, you have been and are the light in my life. And then you end this paragraph by saying: I do have feeling and moments that I cherish and will always hold in a special place.
Did you mean those things?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said in the second line here, right here (indicating): Whatever else I made negative relating to you didn't come from you, it came from me.
Did you mean that?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you agree with me you wrote those words?
MR. AGNIFILO: Alright.
MR. AGNIFILO: We are going to look at about six days later, Defense 665, this is very short, for identification.
MR. AGNIFILO: It is a short e-mail from you to Keith Raniere from July 21st, 2012. Correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer it as 665, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: Alright, Defense Exhibit 665 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 665 was received in evidence.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And all this says is there is a heart sending you my love, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you sent a lot of e-mails like this, short e-mails, I love you or sending you my love, things like that, on sometimes two or three times a week?
MR. AGNIFILO: And but you agree you sent this particular e-mail on this date, July 21st, 2012, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, July 31st, so it's a few days later.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sorry, Judge, this is 645 for identification.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: This is from you to Keith on July 31st, 2012, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer it as 645, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't hear?
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right, Defense Exhibit 645 is received in evidence.
(Defense Exhibit 645 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Take whatever time you need to read it over.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
So you say: Hi again, heart, I just want to tell you I am running toward you, unafraid. I am attached to you. I am aware I know theoretically I could free myself of attachments and exist at a higher level of consciousness. But that is not my job here. I don't feel that is what I need to master this time around. I need love. I need to learn how to do that. I need to learn to respect and be kind and do what is right regardless. I want to love you. I want to be better for you and yes, be loved by you. But I can't control that. I can only run towards you and that's what I will do. The rest will unfold and it has to.
That's what you write, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, at some point do you meet someone in Mexico named, is it PJ?
MR. AGNIFILO: Hold on.
MR. AGNIFILO: Hold on, we just lost our signal.
MR. AGNIFILO: We'll have to wait for a second, Judge. I apologize.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: We'll go on, I'll catch up.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So until we're waiting for this to reboot, do you remember in September of 2012 you were fired from a job?
MR. AGNIFILO: What job was that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, and what happened?
DANIELA: What happened is I believe we didn't have similar working styles, so he said, Thank you very much, but no thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told Keith about this?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why, why did you tell Keith that you were fired from a job?
DANIELA: Why did I -- why did I tell Keith anything? Why did I tell him that I loved him? Why did I share what was going on in my life? Why did I do all of that? Why did I share with a man who destroyed my life --
MR. AGNIFILO: My question is why did you tell him you were fired?
DANIELA: Why did I tell him I -- I was telling him a lot of things from what I can read. I -- I mean I'm not an expert, in general --
MR. AGNIFILO: But you made a choice, you made a choice --
THE COURT: Are you finished?
THE COURT: Finish.
DANIELA: I am not an expert in the subject, I can only speak to what my experience was.
I think after everything that I went through, as I said already, and just a little bit ago, it didn't disappear entirely. In fact, that was all of me.
I mean I didn't -- that's all I lived for years and I don't know how else to just verbalize that and explain that. And coupled with carrying all of that inside me, which didn't fade immediately, it took for me to live a full life to be able to change that. Coupled with that, still in the back of my mind, in the back of my feeling I knew that it was Keith that held access to my family. So I think there was still an inkling to want to please him, to want to meet the expectations, to want to say the right things. Again, continued as before. I mean it's not -- I'm not trying to explain something very complex, it was just more of the same. That didn't go away immediately. I mean I still didn't have my papers, so I still couldn't even form an identity. I wasn't able to rebuild my life entirely because of him.
Now, I didn't understand that with the clarity that I understand it right now in front of you, so I couldn't verbalize it. So, indeed, my words are not the words that I'm speaking now. I wish they would have, but it's not how it worked for me. I don't know if that's how it works. Clarity came to me, and it took a long time and a lot of building.
So I am telling him right now that I got fired and I'm telling him all these things that seem absurd in light of the massive, traumatic abuse. I think just as a continuation of that manipulation. So I'm just sharing things as I feel them, and that's what I understand of what I was doing then.
(Continuing on the following page.)
(Continuing)
MR. AGNIFILO: You wrote him about everything that you're doing in Mexico; right?
When you got fired, you wrote him that I got fired; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: When you met somebody that you had an interest in, you told him you met someone that you had an interest in; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember -- who's DJ Padamadan, P-A-D-A-M-A-D-A-N? Who is that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you met him in Mexico; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told Keith about aspects of a situation with yourself and this person. How do you say his name?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, with you and DJ; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And DJ said some very negative things about you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: About the state of your mental health?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You shared these messages with Keith; didn't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: You -- now, what was the nature of your relationship between you and DJ?
MR. AGNIFILO: There's no romantic component to it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So you thought you and he were friends. And you and he got into a disagreement about certain things that you did or did not do; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: What was the disagreement about?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you meet this person?
MR. AGNIFILO: Where did you meet him?
MR. AGNIFILO: How long did you and he know each other?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was it a week? Was it six months? Is there anything you can tell us?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you forwarded Keith chats that you and this person had; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Knowing that these chats were very derogatory toward you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you send them?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you won't answer it?
DANIELA: I can answer it again.
I was sending all sorts of things about my life. Pretty indiscriminately. I think it was still some sort of dependency and very, very factually it was actually dependency, since I believe he still held access to -- to my family and for me to get what I want, my papers, and the kind of life that I wanted.
And I think, again, that it was residual of the abuse and the residual of the trauma and the residual of that. So I was just doing what I had been doing for a long time and I thought -- I actually don't know. I was -- I was pretty broken, in fact. The point in rebuilding.
So, again, that's -- that's my understanding of why I was writing all of those things to him.
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to go forward, 628 for identification it's January 14th, 2013. So now we're in 2013. This is for identification.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is from you to Keith, January 14th, 2013; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. We offer it as 628, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. PENZA: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: 628 is received this evidence.
(Defendant's Exhibit 628 received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall you tried to call him; right? You tried to call Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: You write here that you tried to call him.
I tried calling you last night and this morning; right? That's what you wrote.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know if you had been trying to call him periodically during the time you were in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you say here, down here: I'm going to apply for my visa by the end of February. I am so scared. I do not have all the papers I need or the profile that I know they look for, but I know this person. And then there's a website there, who is coming to town in a few weeks. And I will see if I can hire them.
Do you remember if you hired that person?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you get your -- you ended up -- what documents did you get? You were saying yesterday that you got documents from somebody. Someone who worked for a human rights division or something like that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who was that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And this lawyer got you what documents exactly?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And applied new; right? Got a new birth certificate?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you know how that was done? How does one get a birth certificate in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Let me ask you the first one.
How does one get a birth certificate in Mexico?
DANIELA: A birth certificate in Mexico works differently in every state. Actually, it works similar in every state, but it works differently if you are out-of-state, from your home state. I hope that makes sense.
So -- and I believe now it has changed. It was a long time ago.
At the time I was trying to get my birth certificates are -- you can get from the -- the Registro Civil, civil registry. That's an office, like a physical office. You go there, you pay. It takes a little while. You have to, you know, bring some kind of confirmation and you get your birth certificate.
When you are not living or you're not applying in the state that you are -- you are not from the state where you are applying, then there's a whole process of having to request it from the state you're from. And that is a much lengthier process with some applications, because you're not going to be there, you know, like, yourself, present.
And so that process, at least from my home state for the state that I was in, included filling out some application, paying a special fee, and then also paying for special shipment fee for it to go over and I remember it took like about a month.
That's the process for, like, a normal birth certificate in Mexico.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you did this through a lawyer?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you get it done?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you get it?
DANIELA: So my friend who was a lawyer at the Commission de Derechos Humano, Commission of Human Rights, she -- I know that she, -- that like, there's a special process within her organizations to ask for it. So she put in whatever process there was in place, and through the Human Rights Commission. My -- my -- my -- my birth certificate was acquired and sent to me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you had access to lawyers back when you were living in the United States with your family that could have helped you with your immigration situation; isn't that true?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you what's already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 1554.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is already in evidence. I think we discussed this. I think the Government discussed this with you on your direct examination.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who was Jonathan Ware?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And let's look at this exhibit starting from the beginning.
I'll zoom in a little bit so you can see it better.
MR. AGNIFILO: There is. I'm we're going to go e-mail by e-mail.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is from Jonathan Ware. It's to Nancy Salzman, to Kristin Keeffe and to your father at the sagitta e-mail address; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it says: Hector and Nancy and Kristin, I hope you are all well. I'm writing this message at Lisa's request.
Is that Lisa Derks?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who's Lisa Derks?
DANIELA: Lisa Derks is an ESP student who, I understood at some point, I don't know on this point, but at some point was working in the legal department.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And it says: At Lisa's request, a follow-up to discussions I've had with her regarding the legal strategy for mitigating any potential negative consequences to Adrian and Camila in terms of their abilities to return to the United States, invalid immigration status.
He's referring here to your brother and your sister; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to make sure that we are in alignment on our approach. I see two distinct issues which I feel should be approached separately. The first issue is using NXIVM's connections with people of influence.
And he goes through that. I am going to continue on to the next page here. He talks about that paragraph; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And then it says: There's a second issue of how to return Adrian and Camila to valid immigration status. In my professional option, our best bet, given the options available to us at this time, would be to seek USCIS approval for Adrian and Camila to return to the U.S. with Hector as L2 dependants, provided we obtain a favorable adjudication of Hector's pending L1 one petition.
You see that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, eventually all of these e-mails are forwarded to you.
MR. AGNIFILO: If we look at the first page.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Right? You're there.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. That top e-mail, that's from your mother, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Her e-mail address is TheInnerWitch@gmail, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's to you. It's to your sister Marianna, it's to Pam Cafritz and it's to Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it forwards an e-mail that is from your father to Jonathan Ware, copying your mother, Fluffy, Cami and Lisa Derks, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it says: Jonathan, I understand what you -- I understood what you wrote. I asked Lisa see about the kids' B visa extension expiration and no answer received yet. I am aware of the issue and forwarding this e-mail to the kids to immediately return to Mexico if no other choice is workable for the time-being. I am on the road tonight but I will send you what I have about the USCIS request.
So, you get this e-mail, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And your father is saying in this e-mail, I am forwarding this e-mail to the kids, including you, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is not forwarded to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: The whole series of e-mails is forwarded to you from your mother, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: So, you received this, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you don't go back to Mexico in 2008 to make yourself potentially legal to return to the United States, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You now know that there's a lawyer who's working with your brother and your sister in regard to their immigration status.
You know this because you have received this e-mail, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you do anything to follow-up on this? Do you call Jonathan Ware? Do you speak to your father about trying to make it so that you would be legal in the United States?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't do anything. You just continue to live illegally in Clifton Park, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I have more but maybe this would be a good time for a break. I'm about to move to another topic.
THE COURT: All right, we will take our lunch break now.
All rise for the jury.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
(Jury exits.)
(In open court; outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: The witness may stand down. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Anything before lunch?
MS. PENZA: No, Your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing from us, Judge.
THE COURT: All right, we will take an hour for lunch, thank you.
(Continued on following page with AFTERNOON SESSION.)
AFTERNOON SESSION:
(In open court.)
(Judge NICHOLAS G. GARAUFIS enters the courtroom.)
THE COURT: The defendant has not been brought up yet.
(Defendant enters the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Please, bring in the witness.
(Witness resumes stand.)
THE COURT: Please bring in the jury.
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: Please, be seated.
All right, Mr. Agnifilo, you may continue your cross-examination.
The witness is reminded she is still under oath.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continuing) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon, Daniela.
MR. AGNIFILO: I am only going to show you one more e-mail and this particular e-mail is from 2015 and it's marked Defendant's Exhibit 636 for identification.
THE COURT: Hold on.
All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, 636, I'll show you the top of it.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's a series of e-mails between yourself and Keith Raniere with the last e-mail being February 18th, 2018; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And I'll show you, it's a two-page Exhibit. So, that's the first page. You see that it's Defendant's Exhibit 636. And I'll show you the second page.
Right. And it starts with an e-mail from you to Keith on February 17th, 2015; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. We offer it as 636, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I just have a brief moment, please?
THE COURT: Sure.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
MS. PENZA: The Government objects.
THE COURT: Side-bar.
(Side-bar conference held on the record out of the hearing of the jury.)
(Continued on following page.)
(Side-bar.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Here, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MS. PENZA: Sorry, I didn't see this e-mail.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, I hadn't seen this e-mail before. They did give it to me, but I hadn't seen it.
I believe, this is all hearsay, this entire e-mail and I think it's particular -- they want -- I think the Defense wants it in for this statement from the defendant.
In particular, she, referring to Kristin Keeffe, has been silent for a year. Then 48 hours ago she starts a vigilant campaign contacting several people. Then you call. Are you sure she has it.
This is all hearsay. I don't think that there's any -- I don't think it's admissible.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll let Your Honor read it and whenever you're ready.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
THE COURT: I am sorry, what is the problem with it in terms of what Mr. Raniere is saying?
MS. PENZA: It's hearsay. It's hearsay. It's being offered for its truth. It's not an admission by a party opponent, it's his own admission. He wants that statement in for its truth.
THE COURT: Is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I really don't. And you can even give the admonition we've been giving for other hearsay statements, as far as I'm concerned.
MS. PENZA: There's a 403 problem.
THE COURT: What is the significance of this because I am not sure about that.
MS. PENZA: So, Your Honor, this is, I'm sorry to -- the significance of this is that Mr. Agnifilo is trying to build a case about Kristin Keeffe without calling Kristin Keeffe, and this is the defendant's statement about Kristin Keeffe. So, I think this is a 403 problem. I think it is being offered for its truth. I don't think there's any other purpose for it. If it's not being offered for its truth, then I think there's a risk of juror confusion under Rule 403. I don't know what the proffered reason for the admissibility of this e-mail at all is. It's all hearsay.
MR. AGNIFILO: I have no interest in the truth of that statement. I'm interested in the fact that in 2015 that Mr. Raniere and this witness are having this exchange.
If Your Honor wants to give the warning in regard to hearsay, as you have with many of the Government witnesses, we wouldn't be opposed to that because I'm not interested in the truth of that statement.
MS. PENZA: I think Mr. Agnifilo can ask about conversations that she had at that time, but this is, on its face...
THE COURT: You can ask about it. I am not letting it in.
If she does not know the answers, you can present it to her to help her recall it.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
THE COURT: Thank you.
(Side-bar end.)
(Continued on following page.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: All right. The objection is sustained.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm just going to show this to you.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall if you sent Keith Raniere an e-mail on or about February 17, 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: So I'm going to ask you. You can look at it. Look at it and then read this to yourself and then I'll ask you some questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. Absolutely. I apologize. Thank you. Is that better?
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So did you send Keith an e-mail around this time telling him that you never hacked into his computer or his account?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you remember sending him an e-mail in or around February 17, 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember speaking to him on the phone?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling him that you had hacked into your father's e-mail account in an e-mail?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. You had, in fact, hacked into your father's Facebook account, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What is accurate?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he give you permission to do that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you use the PSP, we've referred to a PSP in different points in your testimony. Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's a PSP?
DANIELA: It's a little device, like a Nintendo, but it has more functionalities than just a simple Nintendo.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you use the PSP to gain access to your father's Facebook account without his permission?
MR. AGNIFILO: What exactly did you do?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And by doing that, you were able to access your father's Facebook account?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall telling Keith that in or around February of 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall you and Keith having conversations about Kristin Keefe? Hold on. Let me -- and the only question is whether you recall.
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you answered the question. I asked you if you had conversations with Keith around this time period about Kristin Keefe?
DANIELA: I don't remember. I don't remember exactly. I cannot narrow it down to a time period and I don't remember those conversations, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: When was the last time you spoke to Kristin Keefe?
MR. AGNIFILO: You haven't spoken to her since then?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, speaking of your father, you said that you you've only seen your father once? How many times have you seen your father since you've been in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. How many times have you seen your father since you've been in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you remember when those were?
MR. AGNIFILO: When was the last time you saw him?
DANIELA: I don't remember exactly. I think it was at New Year's, around New Year's, maybe 20, maybe 2015. I don't remember exactly. Sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay. Do you remember a time when Marianna and your father came down to see you in July of 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. I'm going to show you a picture.
Just for identification for the moment, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Of Defense 600.
That's a picture of you and who?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Your Honor, we offer Defense 600.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 600 is received in evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know where you are there and what that is in the background?
MR. AGNIFILO: What is it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that a hotel where you went to work?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall this picture being from July of 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I'm going to show you --
MR. AGNIFILO: For identification, Judge.
MR. AGNIFILO: -- another picture. This is 601 for identification.
That's a picture of you and Marianna?
MR. AGNIFILO: I offer 601, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 601 is received in evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's -- is that you and Marianna inside that same hotel?
MR. AGNIFILO: The hotel that we just saw from the outside, that sort of reddish, pinkish building in the background, that's the hotel?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is you and Marianna on the inside, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I'm going to move for identification Defense 603.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is that in Defense 603?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer 603.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 603 is received in evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recognize where you are there?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that a restaurant that you like in the town where you were living at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you recall that you were there with Marianna and your father?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you for identification 604. That's you, your father and Marianna?
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer 604.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 604 is received in evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So that's Marianna, your father and yourself moving left to right, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And they had come to your town where you were living to visit you, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is this, is that -- is this the same hotel where you and Marianna were outside and then you and Marianna were inside? Is this the same place?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at a certain point, did you run a marathon in October of 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember if your father came down for that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did your father come down at all in October of 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Why did he come down?
MR. AGNIFILO: A race?
MR. AGNIFILO: I see.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I'm going to show you --
MR. AGNIFILO: Just for identification, Judge.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: -- 598. A little more scaled down. There we go. Okay. 598. Who is that in the picture?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer 598.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 598 is received in evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. AGNIFILO: That's you running, you said a 16K race?
MR. AGNIFILO: And your father came down for that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he come with anybody else or just himself?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And when we started this, you say that you remember him being down for a New Year's Eve, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you remember that being New Year's Eve, 2016 into '17?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you a photograph --
MR. AGNIFILO: -- for identification, 597.
That's you and your father?
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 597 is received in evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. AGNIFILO: That's you and your father at the beach?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you have any recollection seeing this photograph, that's when he was down for New Year's?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. In other words, do you remember going to the beach with him when he was down for New Year's and having this picture taken?
DANIELA: Okay. I remember him going for New Year's and I remember a location at the beach. I don't know if they're the same. I remember that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But when he was down for New Year's, you do remember going with him to the beach?
MR. AGNIFILO: Oh, you don't?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you remember -- what did you do with him when he came down for New Year's?
MR. AGNIFILO: To where?
DANIELA: We visited some, it's a vacation place. And I remember we went to Valla -- we visited around but we didn't go to the beach.
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't go to a place with beaches?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know someone named Mark Vicente?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is he?
MR. AGNIFILO: When was the last time you spoke to him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he tell you at one point that there was going to be a law enforcement raid?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he tell you at some point that you should try to get Cami out of the United States?
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you and he talk about?
DANIELA: He -- I remember he asked me, he said he read and knew things that had happened to me and he asked me if it was true.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember him telling you that Frank Parlato was threatening to write about you?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you call Frank Parlato?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. How many times did you call Frank Parlato?
MR. AGNIFILO: More than once?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you call Frank Parlato after you had a conversation with Mark Vicente?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall when -- did you speak to Mr. Parlato and Mr. Vicente about the same time period?
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times have you spoken to Mark Vicente in the last three years?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you call him or did he call you?
MR. AGNIFILO: You have a lawyer named Neil Glazer, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you are going to bring a civil lawsuit, aren't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: You have no intention of bringing a civil lawsuit against Keith Raniere or NXIVM or anyone else?
MR. AGNIFILO: I know you haven't done it but you plan on doing it, don't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why do you have Neil Glazer as your lawyer?
DANIELA: I, initially -- I needed counsel to handle the precarious situation with my little sister Camila and after that, I needed counsel to interact with officials from the government.
MR. AGNIFILO: Mr. Glazer is not a criminal lawyer, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know that he's Mark Vicente's lawyer too?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you get Mr. Glazer from Mark Vicente?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, can we approach?
THE COURT: No. Next question.
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you find Mr. Glazer as your lawyer?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: So as you sit here today, you have no intention of bringing a civil lawsuit?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you haven't had any discussions with anyone about bringing a civil lawsuit?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're not being prosecuted for anything that you've spoken about over the last five days, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You admitted that you entered the United States illegally in 2004, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You admitted on cross-examination for the first time that you made an identification, a fraudulent identification card for your sister Camila, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're saying you told the government about that beforehand?
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you tell him?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're sure you told him?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's a pretty big thing, isn't it? I mean that you made a fraudulent identification card, a Mexican national identification card for your little sister and you can't remember if you told him or not?
MR. AGNIFILO: You hacked into the e-mail accounts of several people, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you know you're never being prosecuted for any of it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. All the things --
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: You may ask your question.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're not being prosecuted, you're not going to be a criminal defendant in a criminal prosecution for all of the things that you have said that you did in this courtroom over the last five days, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Answer whichever one you think you want to answer.
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Well, no, we don't --
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
THE COURT: Ask a specific question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: In the course of your testimony over the last five days, you have said, you have told this jury, you have told this court, that you've committed a number of crimes, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you understand that it's a crime to hack into someone's computer?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you admitted that you hacked into several different people's computers, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You admitted that you came over the Canadian border illegally with a fake identification card in 2004, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You admitted that you created a fake Mexican national identification card for your sister Camila, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you expect that you are going to be prosecuted for anything that you've testified to in this courtroom?
MR. AGNIFILO: Has anyone told you they're going to prosecute you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I have nothing else.
THE COURT: Redirect?
MS. PENZA: Very briefly, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Good afternoon, Daniela.
MS. PENZA: Daniela, when you met with the government the first time, did you do so voluntarily?
MS. PENZA: And have you met with the government voluntarily every time that you've spoken to the government?
MS. PENZA: And were you subpoenaed to testify?
MS. PENZA: You're testifying voluntarily today?
MS. PENZA: And has the government made any promises to you in exchange for your testimony?
MS. PENZA: Has the government made any promises to you at any time?
MS. PENZA: Why are you -- why did you choose to cooperate with the government and to tell your story to the government?
MS. PENZA: Thank you. No further questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing else, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. The witness may stand down. You are excused.
THE COURT: You're welcome.
(Witness excused.)
(Continued on next page.)
THE COURT: Let's have a sidebar please.