3.Daniela — Cross (Recall, Part 2)
1,309 linesCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon, Daniela.
MR. AGNIFILO: My name is Mark Agnifilo. I am Keith Raniere's lawyer. I am going to ask you a few questions. If I ask you a question that is not clear, feel free to ask me to rephrase it and I am happy to do that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you make Camilla a fake identification card for her to leave the United States?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't tell us about that on direct examination, did you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So tell us about it now.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. How did you do that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead. Tell us who, how did you do it, why did you do it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you make one fake ID card or more than one?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. And what was it?
MR. AGNIFILO: From -- like a national Mexican identification card?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And this was a contact that you had through your mother?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And whose idea was it to make Cami a fake ID so that she could leave the United States?
MR. AGNIFILO: What was it for?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And whose idea was it to make this fake Mexican national identification card for your sister?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you speak with anybody before you decided to have this fake identification card made?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who's that?
MR. AGNIFILO: A Mexican lawyer or an American Lawyer?
MR. AGNIFILO: Based where?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who suggested the idea of the fake ID card, you or the lawyer?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told the lawyer you were going to make a fake Mexican national identification card for your sister?
MR. AGNIFILO: And the lawyer was okay with that?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you told the lawyer?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was he aware of it because you told him?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's Tepito?
MR. AGNIFILO: And does the area Tepito have any relevance in you creating this fake identification card?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who made it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who did you speak to in order to get it made?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you go about doing it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell the Government that you had made a fake Mexican national identification card for Cami to be able to fly in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah? When do you think you told them?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you talked a lot about situations that developed that led to you being in that room for almost two years, right? On direct examination?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. Let me ask you a different question.
MR. AGNIFILO: You had stolen many different things from many different people over the course of many years while you were in Clifton Park; isn't that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? So you stole the $6,000, right, you talked about that?
MR. AGNIFILO: You stole from stores, didn't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever steal anything from a store in and around Clifton Park?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you steal things from people's houses?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Other than Flintlock, did you ever steal anything from a house other than 3 Flintlock?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did you ever steal a stereo from your brother Fluffy?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? You are not saying no; you are just saying not that you remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: You are not saying it didn't happen?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you steal from a Walmart?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you steal from any store?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, I just want to make sure -- Your Honor, may we have a sidebar?
THE COURT: All right.
(Sidebar held outside the hearing of the jury.)
THE COURT: What's the problem?
MS. PENZA: I want to make sure Mr. Agnifilo has a good faith basis for his questions, because there is a lot of stuff that the defendant has said that has happened that are just untrue. And if it's just the defendant's fantasy, I don't want her being harassed on cross-examination about it.
THE COURT: Well, that's fair enough, but --
MR. AGNIFILO: I will make out what the good faith basis is, I will go to the next question. I will go right to it. She wrote it herself and I will confront her with what she wrote.
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
(Sidebar concluded.)
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Ms. --
MR. AGNIFILO: One second.
MR. AGNIFILO: So let me ask you some specific questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you steal -- you said you did not steal anything from a Walmart?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is there a store called Arlene's in the area of Clifton Park?
MR. AGNIFILO: Marshals?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you steal from Marshals?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, I'm going to show you what -- it's already in evidence. It is Government Exhibit 907, page 109.
This is -- I think you reviewed this with Ms. Penza on direct examination?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think it was attached to an e-mail as part of your breach plan?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I'm sorry. It was attached to a letter as part of a breach plan that you had sent to Keith, if I'm not mistaken.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. It says stores; it says: Pay back what taken, Hannaford, Walmart, Arlene's, Marshals, and then it says Cohoes.
You wrote this; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is your handwriting?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you write it?
DANIELA: I don't remember. I mean, honestly, at that point, I was trying to, one, grasp what the ethical breach was and try to do everything I could to fix it, but I also was in a very kind of broken state, like a lot of things had already happened. And I don't remember this in particular, so I will say that, but a lot of the things, even in this very list, are completely exaggerated, overblown things that I wanted to just make a grand thing. I did all this bad and now I'm going to do everything to fix it. Like a lot of the things on this list are like that. Perhaps that is some of it.
MR. AGNIFILO: I just want to focus you on stores.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is something you wrote and you decided to put an entry for stores; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you then decided, next to stores, to put pay back what taken, and then you mention a number of particular stores; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why did you choose these stores?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you saying that you put them on the list but you didn't take anything from those stores?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember writing this?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? You don't deny that you wrote it?
MR. AGNIFILO: You said that when your father and Kristin Keeffe was taking you -- were taking you to Mexico, you stole money out of your dad's wallet; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's in addition to the money he gave you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you stole the money and then he gave you some extra money; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Hadn't your father and you had conversations in the past, before that time, about you stealing things?
MR. AGNIFILO: And didn't your father express disappointment with you over the fact that you had stolen things?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I want to ask you a few questions about your father.
MR. AGNIFILO: You talked about your father on direct examination. He went to college; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said he attended college on a scholarship?
MR. AGNIFILO: He was a good student; is that true?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he was a good athlete from what you were able to even observe of him at a fatherly age; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he placed value on your education; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He placed a value on education, in general, for all of his four children; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he place a value on sports and competition?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said your father said it was important for you and your siblings to devote time and energy to sports; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he wanted you to be successful and competitive, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: You played tennis; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And some of your siblings played tennis?
MR. AGNIFILO: He didn't just want you to play tennis, he wanted you to play tennis well, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: He also placed value on achievement; is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, I mean, achievement in education; he wanted you to get good grades, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He wanted your siblings to get good grades, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He wanted you to do well in the world; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he, himself, was a successful businessman?
MR. AGNIFILO: You said he worked for a manufacturing company that made tools for drilling?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, and at some point he owned it; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And he made a decent income, you had -- I think you described your childhood as very positive, not wanting for things; is that fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: He was a good provider as a father?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said at one point that your parents did a good job at filling you and your siblings' free time with activities?
MR. AGNIFILO: English lessons; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you play the piano?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, you said at one point that you took the 16-day intensive in Mexico; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And Lauren taught it, Lauren Salzman taught it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think that you described -- at this point, you had decided you were going to go to Switzerland and go to school in Switzerland; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this was sort of like your farewell gift before you went off to Switzerland, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said that Lauren was bubbly and enthusiastic?
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you mean by that, describe what you remember. I know it's a long time, but you said she was bubbly and enthusiastic. Just tell us more about how she was and how she impressed you?
DANIELA: She had a very -- well, she had a very, like, cheerful presence. She is very energetic. She was young. She looked very -- she looked successful to me. She looked like someone, you know, successful.
MR. AGNIFILO: And many of the other people who were taking the course were successful people in Mexico; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, one was the child of the former president of Mexico, I think we talked about him, Emliano?
DANIELA: Yeah. I don't know if it was that intensive, but he was part of ESP later I learned, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And someone named Loreta Garza was there, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is the Garza family?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were they someone of any note in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Rosa Laura, do you remember if she was there?
MR. AGNIFILO: She wasn't at that one, okay.
And the Boone brothers, Omar and Edgar?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, was the mission module part of the 16-day intensive in your first intensive, do you remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think you said, on direct examination, that you recall there being some mathematical equation about the end of the world? Am I remembering this right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you clear about that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah? Do you remember that the discussion in the mission module was more around the fact that the earth's resources are becoming more scarce as time goes on, was that part of the class?
MR. AGNIFILO: The earth, natural resources.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And that humans have taken a great toll on the planet in different areas, do you remember that being part of that class?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember there being sort of a graph done that if things continue to -- along the current path that we would be sort of running out of resources and things like that down the road without a specific fixed time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember the math equation -- you said there was a math equation, do you remember what it was?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And mentioned in what context?
DANIELA: In the context that Vanguard had done a calculation, a math equation, taking into account all that was going on in the world and all the destruction, at the pace that it was going, the world was going to be -- like to end, to be irreversible at some period of time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Irreversible, meaning that things were going to get so far gone that it would be hard to reverse the effects; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you decided not to go to school in Switzerland; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And your parents let you make this decision? This was effectively your decision as to what you wanted to do with your education; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you decided you wanted to go to Clifton Park and pursue NXIVM's teachings; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Please.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Okay, fair enough. So rather than going to school in Switzerland, you wanted to come to Clifton Park, that area, and promote the mission?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just remind us, what's your vision of what the mission is?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
DANIELA: I thought that ESP and, you know, the text that it had created and this great man was going to in some way help change the course of things. So that was the general idea.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you wanted to be a part of it?
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point, you said that you remember first meeting Keith Raniere?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I think you said, on direct examination, the first time you met him you realized he wasn't normal?
MR. AGNIFILO: What you said on direct examination is when you first met him you realized he wasn't normal?
MR. AGNIFILO: What do you mean by that?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay. However you meant it.
DANIELA: I meant he wasn't a regular guy, that he had -- you know, I felt he was like -- I thought I could tell he was smart from the way he behaved and the way he looked, that he was a little odd but in a good way, so that he wasn't like everybody else, he was like someone special.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I think you said he was geeky?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you described him as soft spoken?
MR. AGNIFILO: Attentive?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that he had a sweet presence?
MR. AGNIFILO: What made you think he had a sweet presence?
DANIELA: I think, in part, the characteristics aforementioned; the attentiveness, the soft-spokeness. I think I interpret that as sweet.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember the first time that you actually had an interaction with him?
MR. AGNIFILO: And where were you exactly?
DANIELA: I remember at the -- at the V week location, like the -- I forget now. It's not Silver Lake. Pyramid Lake.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were at Pyramid Lake for V week, so we are talking about late August or so; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember where you and he were the first time you met?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember -- what do you remember about that first conversation, if anything?
DANIELA: I remember that interaction, I remember what I said before. I remember that my parents were there. I remember -- that's what I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So your parents were there and you were there; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: None of your other siblings?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were the first of your siblings to be in the Albany area?
MR. AGNIFILO: And, at one point, you said that your older sister Marianna was back in Mexico and she was kind of struggling, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Marianna, you said, was in trouble with your parents?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that she had been grounded?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember how long a period of time Marianna had been grounded?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what she did to get grounded?
MR. AGNIFILO: What did she do?
DANIELA: I remember it was -- it was an instant where they broke a piñata in a supermarket, that's what I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: And she was grounded for a number of days; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: By grounded, she wasn't permitted to leave the family home; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead, what's grounding?
DANIELA: At least in my home, how it worked is, you know, not allowed to go to parties, in her case.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, for a period of time, she -- there were certain things she couldn't do?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just going -- she could do everything else?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said, on direct examination, you were worried about her though?
MR. AGNIFILO: She had been acting out so much, you were worried about her?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told her that she should come and stay with you in Clifton Park; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And she did. So how long were you in Clifton Park before Marianna got there, if you had to estimate?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think you said that Marianna and Pam Cafritz became very friendly very quickly?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your relationship with Pam?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Did Pam ever leave you money places?
MR. AGNIFILO: Would Pam ever leave you money; like in a car, would she sort of leave you things from time to time?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Okay.
Pam and Marianna, how -- how -- they started living together; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: So it was Keith, it was Pam Cafritz, it was Kristin Keeffe, it was Karen Unterreiner, and then it was your older sister Marianna; correct? All living together at one point in time?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said when Marianna got to Clifton Park she started playing tennis again?
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(Continuing)
MR. AGNIFILO: And she was sort of doing better than she was back in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: When she was in Mexico, before she ever came to Clifton Park, she had an eating disorder; is that fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. She suffered from bulimia?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, you were working in the administration office, correct, when you first got there in 2003?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were bored there. That's not what you came -- this wasn't the part of the mission you wanted to do. You thought that your talents were being wasted there; fair to say?
I can ask you a different question.
You didn't want to be working there.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why not?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What did you think it was going to be?
DANIELA: I thought they were going to do as they said. I thought that they were going to teach me the programming language that they were using, and that I was going to be able to program and work, and that I was going to have an experience of a self-sufficient life for that year, and that I would be able to contribute to the mission.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And when you say program, you mean computer programming?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had a conversation with Keith about this; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you approached Keith and you said, I'm working in the administration office and this isn't what I want to be doing. I want to do more than this. Something along those lines, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Keith was attentive to what you were saying to him; fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. He listened to you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: He asked you some questions. He asked you, tell me what you want to do with your life; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He asked you what you had done so far in different areas of your education; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He asked what your plans were for the future; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he asked you specifically about math, what background you had in math and, you know, trying to gauge sort of what your aptitude was in math; fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you said he wrote some equations on a board.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you -- this is what you're describing, sort of brain teasers?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. Let's stick with the equations.
The equations he wrote on the board, was it just you and him?
MR. AGNIFILO: And where were you exactly?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And the Center -- what's the Center? When you say the Center, what happens at the Center? What different things are at the Center?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay.
DANIELA: Was a place where intensives would be held. Those classes would be held there. Origins classes would be held there. There was a little, like, cafe area and there were different meeting areas in, like, for people to go and work and spend time. And sometimes during the intensives, there would be forums and there would also be community events being held there.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So he writes this equation on the board and you solve the equation; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? You didn't solve the equation?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what did happen?
MR. AGNIFILO: Go ahead.
DANIELA: When he wrote those things on the board, he just was asking me if I knew what those were.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you?
DANIELA: I think the first one I did. And then the other ones, I didn't. It's -- I think they were part of, like, higher level calculus.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so said at one point, before this -- did you steal the $6,000 before or after this exchange with Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: So at one point you said you steal the $6,000; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And it's cash in Karen Unterreiner's drawer?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it's just sitting there and you take it and you walk out with it; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you said you felt guilty about it and you put it back.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you told Keith what you had done; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why did you tell Keith?
DANIELA: As I said before, I -- I was conflicted in myself. I -- I knew what I had done was really wrong and beyond just putting it back. I was having a very hard time understanding why; how I had been capable of even doing that.
I think that, as I said, part of it was like a desire to -- to confess in a way and so that was -- that speaks to my desire to say it. Why to him? In particular?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
DANIELA: Because I -- I -- I think because I trusted him and because I saw him as a -- well, essentially as a man who knew more than me, maybe knew more about human nature. So that might help me understand, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you -- do you remember telling him that you took it because you were bored?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling him you took it just to see if you could take it and get away with it?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's the reason you told him you took it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you and he talked about that; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: He didn't yell at you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He didn't take a harsh tone with you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He didn't reprimand you or say you were a bad person or anything like that; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He treated it as sort of an exploration, really, why did you do it; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he said at one point when you're talking about this, that a moral -- immoral decisions last forever.
Do you remember him saying that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that these decisions sort of define us. You know, we define ourselves by these moral decisions that we make?
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, what do you remember about the conversation between you and him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Which was what?
DANIELA: I felt it was one of understanding. Like, he understood; a receptiveness. It was stern. It was stern. Definitely, it was a serious subject, but it wasn't taken lightly. But it -- it was one of, I felt, understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: Understanding. On Keith's part?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But then he told other people in the community; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he told your father.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And your father and you had discussions about this; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And your father expressed disappointment specifically about this act; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And do you ever -- there was a kind of an honor cup, right, in one of the cafes where people would put money if they took something to eat or to drink. Was there such a thing?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, just a cup, like, you know, rather than giving the money to somebody, a cashier, there would be like a little jar and you put the money in the jar and you take the granola bar or the bottle of water, or whatever it is that you want.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever steal money other than the money from Karen Unterreiner's drawer?
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing else?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But other than taking money from Flintlock and taking money from Karen Unterreiner's drawer, you never took money from the little cup where people put the cash?
MR. AGNIFILO: And how did your father react when you told him about the $6,000?
MR. AGNIFILO: What did he say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you said in 2003 your parents' marriage was not doing so well; fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you had discussions with Keith about what that was like, to have your parents' marriage not doing to well; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I mean, one of the things you discussed with Keith was that topic; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And was he -- do you remember any of those discussions? I don't need the specifics, but I mean, you know, were you able to sort of tell him what was going on and what that was like, and did he share his thoughts with you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So I'm just going to follow up, and I apologize for asking about this subject.
On direct examination you talked about the first time you and Keith Raniere had sexual contact. So I'm just going to ask you a few questions about that, if that's okay.
Your birthday is October 26th, 2003; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry. No. No, not the day of your birth, your birthday, like your 18th birthday, in this case.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And you said that Keith performed oral sex on you about a week later or so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think you said that he had his clothes on the whole time; is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So let me see if I have this right, because I really do want to understand this.
MR. AGNIFILO: When he was performing oral sex, he had his clothes on.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then at some point he took his clothes off and you guys hugged?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But there was no intercourse.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. You weren't drinking or anything; right? I mean, you remember these events.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. You remember them clearly.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And the only reason you think that there might have been intercourse is because he said so after the fact; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But in terms of what you experienced, you didn't experience that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think you even said on direct examination there was no -- there was no evidence of it. There was no evidence that there had been intercourse; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So -- and I think what you said on direct examination is what you believe, and I think you even said I'm sticking to my guns to this day, is that it was oral sex without intercourse; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But that day was your anniversary. The day that this happened, you guys, you decided it was going to be The Day of the Dead; right? It was going to be November 2nd?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you weren't sure of the exact date, but you estimated and you thought it fitting that it be The Day of the Dead; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so that's the day that you and Keith had the oral sex. When you say anniversary, that's the day that you're talking about.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, after -- this happened at Rome Plaza; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: This happened at Rome Plaza?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, after that, Keith discussed his other romantic relationships with you; fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And am I right that after what happened at Rome Plaza, you and Keith did not have any other sexual contact for another six months?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you knew that he had -- he had long-term girlfriends --
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay.
DANIELA: The sexual contact that happened like -- like, six months after was of, like, intercourse. Like, so, it was reciprocal.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So when -- because you said on direct that there wasn't sexual contact for six months after Rome Plaza, but what you're saying is that there was oral sex before -- during that period of time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. So the first time -- tell me if this is right.
The first time that you and he had intercourse would have been six months, about, after the Rome Plaza incident.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, at some point you found out that your older sister Marianna was also having sex with Keith; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And how did you find that out?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you found out from her.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, what was your relationship like --
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, let me ask it again.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was your relationship with Marianna like at this point in time when she told you?
DANIELA: At this point in time -- so we had been best friends growing up. I would say we were very close still when she came to Albany with me. And then since she had started her friendship with Pam, we were almost like spending no time together. And that was like a period of months.
So I would say we were best friends, but had been distanced for a little while.
MR. AGNIFILO: Judge, we're going to be in this area for a little while, so if you want to take our break now, we can do that
THE COURT: All that. That is fine.
We will take a ten-minute break. All rise for the jury.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
(Jury exits.)
(In open court; outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: All right. The witness may stand down. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
THE COURT: All right. We will take a ten-minute break.
(Recess taken.) (In open court.)
(Judge NICHOLAS G. GARAUFIS enters the courtroom.)
COURT CLERK: All rise.
(Side-bar conference held on the record out of the hearing of the jury.)
(Continued on following page.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: Ms. Penza, tomorrow when this witness completes her testimony, who would be next?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, we intend to call James Loperfido, followed by Elizabeth Butler, followed by Sheila Jelonek.
THE COURT: All right.
How long will the next witness' direct be? About how long? Who is doing the direct?
MR. LESKO: Forty-five minutes, tops.
THE COURT: I see. All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: A short cross.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fifteen, twenty minutes.
THE COURT: So we might get to two witnesses tomorrow.
MR. LESKO: Probably three. In addition to --
THE COURT: Well, we will see. It depends on how long the cross goes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think if we have the whole afternoon, I mean, these are not long witnesses, I don't believe.
THE COURT: I see.
MR. AGNIFILO: We might be able to get all three.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, we will see. I just want to get a sense of this.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
THE COURT: All right.
So are we now ready to move forward?
MR. AGNIFILO: We are.
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Let's bring in the witness, please.
(Witness resumes stand.)
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, everyone.
All right. Mr. Agnifilo, you may continue your cross-examination.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: The witness is reminded that she is still under oath.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon, Daniela.
MR. AGNIFILO: At one point your older sister Marianna told you that she was in love with Keith; is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when she told you that she was in love with Keith, you told her that you wanted to be with Keith, also.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, at this point in time, you had made a decision that even though Marianna was in love with Keith and was going to be with Keith, you, too, wanted to be with Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told Marianna that you thought Keith was a great man.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so, you and Marianna had a conversation about what you were going to do about this situation, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because it was apparent to you that Marianna intended to continue to have a romantic relationship with Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you knew that you intended to continue to have a romantic relationship with Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so, you and Marianna had a conversation about how you were going to handle this, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't want to break up with Keith after finding out that Marianna was in love with him, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't want to break up with him even after you knew that he and Marianna had been together romantically in the past, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't want to break up with him even though you knew Keith and Marianna intended to be together romantically in the future?
MR. AGNIFILO: So, the two of you, you and Marianna, had a discussion about the ground rules that you and she would follow in both of you having a relationship with Keith, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
Did you have a meeting at some point on New Garner Road?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was the purpose of this meeting between you and Marianna?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what were the ground rules that you and Marianna -- well, let me ask.
From your perspective, what did you want to accomplish from this conversation with Marianna about the ground rules of both of you having a relationship with Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. You got to -- did you get to the location?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you get to New Garner Road, you and Marianna?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But before, the way you recall it, is before you and she could have the discussion about the ground rules of each of you being in a relationship with Keith, Keith shows up?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. And was the plan that you were going to actually write down these ground rules?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, in advance of this New Garner Road meeting that you're saying never happened, what discussions did you have with Marianna about how to handle this situation?
I know we're going back a ways. Whatever you can remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But you remember that at least in your mind, you were going to write these ground rules down.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you and Marianna ever use the name Peppy to refer to Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you and she pick a name for Keith that was not Keith so that when you and she were discussing Keith in public, people wouldn't know you were talking about Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: So, when Keith shows up at New Garner Road, you and Marianna are there, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And he says something along the lines of, he doesn't like the fact that -- well.
Tell me what do you remember him saying.
DANIELA: I remember, I remember him asking what we were doing. And I don't remember exactly what he said, but I, I remember distinctly getting the clear idea that we were not supposed to be doing that. Like, he asked a series of questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he say to you, you're not to be doing this?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you remember the questions he asked?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, at the time Keith was living with Marianna at 3 Flintlock, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Not yet?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just to be clear, when Marianna came up to the Albany area, you guys lived for a while at a Howard Johnson's?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you live for a while with one of the Boones?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who did you live with, when you first, when you and Marianna first lived together, who did you live with?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so when you and Marianna sat down at New Garner Road to have this discussion, do you remember where each of you were living?
DANIELA: I think we were living, I'm not sure, but I think we were living at River Walk. River Walk apartments.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then, at some point, Keith -- Marianna moves into 3 Flintlock with Keith and Kristin Keeffe and Karen Unterreiner, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Pam Cafritz.
And where were you living when Pam moved into 3 Flintlock?
MR. AGNIFILO: Where were you living? When Pam -- I'm sorry. Let me ask a different question.
When Marianna moved into 3 Flintlock, where were you living?
DANIELA: I don't remember. It was, I remember it was like, a quick transition, but I don't remember exactly if I was -- I don't think I was at River Walk. I remember Wilton, she was living there, but it may have happened in between. So, it was in between those two locations.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you feel any form of anything over the fact that Marianna moved in with Keith and you didn't?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did you ever feel that Keith treated Marianna better than he treated you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Differently in what way?
DANIELA: I felt, I felt, well, he treated her, for example, in a more romantic sexual way. Sometimes we would go to volley ball together, all in Pam's car and he would sit Marianna on his lap and put his hand in her pants, in front of me, with me in the car. And do sexual things to her. That was pretty, I mean, that was, that was, that was something. I always wondered why he did that. So, I was more upset at things like that.
He would always be very sexual with her. I know they spent a lot of time together. I thought, I thought, I felt he loved her. That's what I saw from the interactions. So, it was very different because I didn't feel that was the case with me.
There was also, you know, and I think I said something like this, but I'll be specific. There was preferential treatment, which was in stark contrast for the teachings of ESP where, you know, everything's supposed to be integrity, and cause and effect. And so, she would be treated in a different way than me when circumstances were similar. And that was, that was a topic of, of, of confusion for sure, yes.
(Continued on following page.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO: (Continuing)
MR. AGNIFILO: You said on direct examination that you thought that Keith was especially hard on you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Keith said from the very first time that he ever met you, he thought you were very, very smart, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Unusually smart?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he say to you at one point that you're one of the few people that he can have discussions of certain concepts with?
MR. AGNIFILO: That of all the people in the ESP and NXIVM, he felt that there were certain things, intellectual things, things that are difficult to grasp that he could only discuss with you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did he ever say to you that he thought that you could be his successor if he stopped being the Vanguard?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just to be his successor if he stopped being the Vanguard.
DANIELA: Not, not in those terms. I did -- he did use "successor" and the way I understood it was differently, that I remember. Like, it was -- he did mention several times I would be, that I could be his successor, like in an intellectual type way. So as I understood it, it wasn't like I would be the next Vanguard. That would be frightening. But he did mention the word and I understood something from it.
MR. AGNIFILO: So what did you understand him to be saying to you? "Intellectual successor," what did that mean to you?
DANIELA: It's not very specific. He had promised he would teach me. So I -- what I thought he meant was that I would be taught and that all of this knowledge and all these teaching, I, I would, you know, move forward with. In fact, at some point, he thought of the idea of me being the head of the Ethical Science Foundation, notions like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was the Ethical Science Foundation?
DANIELA: It wasn't formed yet or it was taking shape so I don't know what it was. I just had an idea of what it would be.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, at one point, you had come to the Albany area initially in, what year, was it 2003 or 2004?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then at some point, you went to Mexico, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you -- tell me if this is right. Was it your birthday in 2004, October 26, 2004, that Customs stopped you and your father in Atlanta?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just remind the jury about what happened.
DANIELA: I traveled back to Mexico weeks or days prior and on my way back to the U.S., I was doing a transfer out of Atlanta to New York and we were stopped by Immigration. Initially, they suspected -- like, I remember my father, I remember vaguely that my father may be working in the U.S. so they stopped us and asked us a bunch of questions and that culminated in our visas being withdrawn. As I remember, there was something that I signed and we headed back to Mexico.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had, you had a valid visa, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And your father had a valid visa to the extent that you knew, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And the customs officials in Atlanta withdrew your completely valid visas, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And as a result, you had to go back to Mexico, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall what kind of visa you had at the time, that being October 26, 2004?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember what your father had?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were upset because you wanted to, you wanted to go to be in the community near Albany, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you weren't granted access into the country and you had to go back to Mexico, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you understand that you would have to go back to Mexico for some period of time before you could reapply for a new visa?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your understanding of what that period of time was?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you didn't want to do that?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't want to be in Mexico for a year, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you wanted to come back, you wanted to be in Albany?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you had conversations with Kristen Keefe about how it is you could come back into the country, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you know who Kristin Keefe was in 2004?
MR. AGNIFILO: The two of you worked in the administration office, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you knew she was the head of the legal department, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Was she in the legal department?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at that point, you knew who Kathy Russell was too, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: She also worked in the administration office with you and Kristin Keefe, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And she did the bookkeeping work for NXIVM at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you know Siobhan?
MR. AGNIFILO: You knew her back then?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you know her?
DANIELA: She had -- she was around a lot and she had, she was a person who taught me, had a few sessions with me to teach me HTML and she showed me a few tricks.
MR. AGNIFILO: What's HTML?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, you said that you flew from Mexico to Canada in or around, in December of 2004, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who paid for that flight?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And now, to your knowledge, did your father have a plan to get back into the United States or was he going to wait the year and apply for a new visa?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said that the plan was that you would meet Kristin Keefe and Kathy Russell in Canada and then drive over the border together?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Didn't you say on direct that that was the plan but then Kristin Keefe chickened out at the last minute?
MR. AGNIFILO: So tell me what your understanding of the plan was.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, and you discussed this with Kristin?
MR. AGNIFILO: So Keith told you that Kristin was going to meet you in Canada?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you flew, you flew to Toronto, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And it was -- did you fly on Christmas Eve?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you fly right before Christmas Eve?
MR. AGNIFILO: And flew into Toronto?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who do you meet up with?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember where you met up with her?
MR. AGNIFILO: So at this point, it's just you and Kathy Russell, but you're both in Canada?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Kathy Russell gives you an ID card, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what kind of ID card was it?
MR. AGNIFILO: A sheriff from some county in New York State?
MR. AGNIFILO: So it was a law enforcement ID card, a sheriff's ID card that had another person's name but your photograph, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think what you said is that the ID card was very poorly done, is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you described it on direct as amateur hour?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And why was it so poorly done?
MR. AGNIFILO: No. I mean, what makes it poorly done? Why would you refer to it as amateur hour?
DANIELA: I thought, like, like, like, printed in a home printer maybe. Like, even, I remember feeling all the plastic. I don't know, just a perception thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So Kathy Russell hands you this very fake looking sheriff's identification card, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're expected to show this to a United States border patrol agent at the border, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's what you did, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You and Cathy drove in a car, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember whose car it was?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you approached the United States border, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you have your ID card and you give your ID card to the border patrol agent, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think what you said on direct is the border patrol agent's staring at this, what you're describing as a very fake looking sheriff's identification card, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're getting nervous, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you say to the border patrol agent, "What's the weather like ahead," right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you wanted to distract him, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You wanted to see if you could fool the border patrol agent, who's looking at your very fake, amateur hour looking sheriff's identification card, and somehow distract him so you could get into the country, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you wanted to enter the United States; that's what you wanted, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't want to wait a year; you wanted to enter the United States when you wanted to enter the United States, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And if it means giving a U.S. border patrol agent a very fake looking sheriff's identification card, that's what you were willing to do, correct?
(Continued on next page.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And when it came to the point where this border patrol agent is really going to study that card, you didn't say, Sir, I have something I have to confess, I don't really work in the sheriff's office, that's --
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
Can I have a sidebar, please?
THE COURT: Yes. Sidebar.
(Sidebar conference.)
THE COURT: So what is the objection?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, this is misleading. A sheriff's ID is actually a personal ID that people get from a sheriff's office with the equivalent -- it's as if you got a driver's license but from a county. I don't know the exact details. I'm not sure that Daniela does either, but the idea that it is, like, some sort of law enforcement ID, as if she is pretending to be a sheriff --
THE COURT: Is that your claim, it's law enforcement?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's a sheriff's ID card. That's what she said and that's what I believe it to be.
MS. PENZA: No, that is not, that is not true. It is just not true. It is -- the idea is you can get -- can you go into the local sheriff's office and get an ID for yourself, the same way New York City has ID cards now that don't, that require less information. That's why I don't think there's a good faith basis to assert that it is somehow pretending to be a law enforcement officer.
THE COURT: I understand. The defense is going to ask the question of whether she understands how a sheriff's ID card is issued.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
THE COURT: I think that's reasonable. She's going to say no, obviously, because she has no idea, and then we move on, but the idea that it is a sheriff's ID, like an employee's ID card, you know, is not part, was not discussed on direct. So let's just try to straighten it out that way.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
(Side bar ends.)
(Continued on next page.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Daniela, do you know where this identification card came from?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did it say on it sheriff's office from some county?
MR. AGNIFILO: And my question just before the sidebar was as you're presenting this identification card to the border patrol agent and he's staring at it and you're concerned because it's not a very well done fake identification card, you don't say to him, Hey, I'm sorry, that's not me, that's a false identification card, you don't say that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: No. You say "What's the weather ahead" not because you're really interested in what the weather is, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You're saying "What's the weather ahead" to get his mind off your bad ID card so you can illegally enter the United States, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it worked, you tricked him; you got in, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you meet with Kristin on the United States side of the border?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember if it was just you and Kathy Russell driving from -- it was Niagara Falls, right?
When you entered the United States, where did you enter the United States?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember how long the drive was from where it was that you entered the United States to Clifton Park?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you don't remember if you were in the car with, with just Kathy Russell or if you were in the car with Kathy Russell and Kristin Keefe?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what you talked about?
MR. AGNIFILO: You were happy that you got into the country, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said you were expecting to see Kristin Keefe in Canada, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you saw Kathy Russell instead?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you ask Cathy what happened to Kristin?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember what happened to Kristin?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you said that when you got back to Clifton Park, you went to a Christmas Eve party?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember where it was?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember, I think you described on direct examination something that happened between you and Marianna and Keith at this Christmas Eve party?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was it that night?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it was at -- where was it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at the time, was Keith living there with Marianna?
DANIELA: Marianna lived there with Pam, and Keith, you know, was there downstairs as he always had been.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did you consider this Keith's home?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Because I think what you said on direct, tell me if this is right, is that it was Pam, Pam Cafritz lived there, Kristin Keefe lived there, Marianna lived there and then you said Keith stays downstairs?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did he stay in other places?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What other places did he stay around that time period? So we're talking Christmas Eve 2004, if you remember.
DANIELA: In maybe a wider range of time because I don't remember exactly, but he used to stay at Edie's house overnight. He used to stay at, I think, at Barbara's house.
MR. AGNIFILO: Barbara, which Barbara?
DANIELA: Barbara Bouchey. I think it was a little more frequent. He also stayed with other people but that was a little more sporadic.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, do you remember at this, at 3 Flintlock, Keith and Marianna were trying to go upstairs and you followed them?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's not what happened?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't remember following Keith and Marianna up the stairs?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember Keith and Marianna left 3 Flintlock and went to 8 Hale which is nearby?
MR. AGNIFILO: And they didn't leave 3 Flintlock and go to 8 Hale because you were following them?
MR. AGNIFILO: You were happy to be back and you were happy to see Keith, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You had come back, in part, because you wanted to see Keith, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You wanted to come back and, you know, be taught by Keith and be part of the mission like you had originally come to NXIVM to do, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I want to talk to you for a little bit about book reports. You talked about book reports for quite some time on direct examination.
Did Keith ever say that he would pay you for book reports?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Keith say he would pay you for book reports?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And the books that he gave you, I think you talked on direct examination a lot of them had to do with systems theory, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And some of the books were very complicated, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it would take you long time to do some of these book reports, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sometimes it would take you up to a year to complete a book report, isn't that true?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I'm going to show you government, this is Government's Exhibit 1504. It's already in evidence. It's a long exhibit but I'm just going to show you the cover page if I can get this off.
Okay. So this is -- let's see if I can get this and read it. All right. Okay. This is Government Exhibit 1504. This is an e-mail from yourself to yourself, correct?
THE COURT: I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, the screen?
THE COURT: Yes, here it goes.
(Continued on next page.)
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO: (Continuing)
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is an e-mail from yourself to yourself; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: On June the 5th, 2005; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you attach a number of attachments to this e-mail. One of them is this systems theory by Ludwing von Bertalanffy?
MR. AGNIFILO: And the other is The Art of Systems Thinking by Joseph O'Connor; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I just want to show you the cover page of Exhibit 511. So, we have The Art of Systems Thinking. You're sending that to yourself on June 5, 2005. And then if we look at Government Exhibit 511, we have The Art of Systems Thinking and you are sending this to Nancy Salzman, April 24, 2006. So 11 months later; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's the purpose of sending this to yourself, just so I understand?
DANIELA: My outlines would be in different degrees of completion. So, I think what I was doing is I was sending myself the most updated versions. So, I'd be working on them and sending them to myself when I updated them.
MR. AGNIFILO: The other one here, we have the General Systems Theory from -- I'm not going to get it right the second time -- Von Bertalanffy, Ludwing von Bertalanffy. You send that to yourself, as we said, on June 5, 2005. And then if we look at Government Exhibit 1510, you send that to Nancy, May 1st. So about 11 months later; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because these were very lengthy, complex books that you were reading; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever have an understanding that part of the reason that Keith wanted you to read these books is so that you would have read them?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. He wanted you to know this material? In this case, he wanted you to know the material on systems theory?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did -- was part of the reason why you were given these books to read so that you yourself could become acquainted with this information?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because he would talk to you about it, wouldn't he?
MR. AGNIFILO: He would have you read these somewhat complicated books and then he would discuss them with you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Didn't he say to you on more than one occasion there's really no one else I can give books like this for someone to read because they're very hard to understand?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember him telling you that you were smart enough that you could understand these books, or something along those lines?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, all the books that were in that one e-mail, 1504, all had to do with Systems Theory; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you read them all; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Sometimes you didn't understand a certain chapter, but you endeavored to read all of that material that he gave you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And the idea was that Systems Theory could translate into how people act in society; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Let me ask you more specific questions. One of the books had to do with how bees operate in a beehive; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that same book discussed how ants operate in an ant hill?
MR. AGNIFILO: Didn't that same book and other of the books discuss how humans operate in a state or in a country or on the earth?
MR. AGNIFILO: And were analogies made between how bees do things in a beehive and how people can do things in society?
MR. AGNIFILO: And all of this is part of Systems Theory, because you were describing Systems Theory on direct examination and part of the idea is how do these complex systems operate and how do they operate more efficiently or less efficiently depending on different factors; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think that you said on direct examination one of the important principles is that the system achieves some sort of homeostasis, right? Do you remember talking about that on direct?
MR. AGNIFILO: A stability? There has to be a stability?
MR. AGNIFILO: A beehive has to have a stability of how the bees work, ants have a stability of how the ants work, people have a stability of how the people work; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Keith was studying these things?
MR. AGNIFILO: Keith would have these -- part of the reason that Keith was having you read these books is that so you and he could discuss this stuff?
MR. AGNIFILO: He would just give you these book reports -- I'm sorry. He would give you these books, you would give him a book report and that would be it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever completely finish the book reports for these books?
MR. AGNIFILO: You did?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who did you send them to?
DANIELA: I sent them to -- I believe some I sent to Nancy. I believe I sent them to -- I don't remember if to Keith. I think to Keith. And the people in my program, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever send Nancy -- let me show you what so far in evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: Going back to 1510. This is the one you sent to Nancy from the General System Theory. And I'm not being the least bit critical. You're saying three of the chapters of the book are beyond you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you lay that out?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall that it would take you a long time to do some of these book reports and you had a hard time finishing them?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you said that in 2006, you were aware that Keith was having sex with a number of different women; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think that the list that you gave was Pam Cafritz; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Karen Unterreiner; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Marianna, your sister?
MR. AGNIFILO: Barbara Jeske?
MR. AGNIFILO: Barbara Bouchey?
MR. AGNIFILO: Ivy Nevares?
MR. AGNIFILO: Dawn Morrison?
MR. AGNIFILO: Kristin Keefe?
MR. AGNIFILO: Lauren Salzman?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Kathy Russell?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you said yesterday that at some point Keith had a child with Kristin Keefe; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said that the community kind of kept quiet the fact it was Keith's child because there was some perception in the community that Keith was celibate?
MR. AGNIFILO: He's having sex with all of these women; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you knew he was, didn't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And, so, who thought he was celibate?
MR. AGNIFILO: Everyone thought Keith was celibate other than the women he was having sex with?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you considered yourself to be in the inner circle?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever make a dollar for being in the inner circle?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Right? I didn't hear you.
MR. AGNIFILO: What you mean by the inner circle is you get to hang around Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: But the big thing is you got to hang around 3 Flintlock; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at some point you learned that Kristin was willing to pay a great deal of money for an e-mail password; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no. That Kristin talked to -- you and Kristin had a discussion about the fact that NXIVM, whoever it was, was willing to pay $24,000 for an e-mail password; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: No. Tell me what you remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: And where were the three of you when this discussion was taking place?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who else was there? Do you remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you realized that there could be a lot of money in getting computer passwords; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Had you ever hacked into a computer before you heard that conversation?
MR. AGNIFILO: And after hearing that conversation, you had hacked into a lot of computers; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you --
MR. AGNIFILO: This is just for the witness for the time being, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. Just a moment.
Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is Defense Exhibit 605 for identification. Let me scan it a little bit. 605 for identification.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is an e-mail from yourself to Kristin Keefe; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer 605.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: Defense Exhibit 605 is received.
(Defendant's Exhibit 605 received in evidence.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not sure the jury can see.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just so it's clear, it is 605. There is not a lot of content in this e-mail. Let me zoom in on it. This is an e-mail from July 20, 2005; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's from yourself; it is to Kristin Keefe; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it says Metacafe link; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then it says, there is a web address for Metacafe. What's going on here?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why are you sending that link?
MR. AGNIFILO: For fun?
MR. AGNIFILO: Didn't you use public places to access the WiFi?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that why you are sending this link to Kristin?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? All right. At some point -- I want to show you Defense Exhibit 606.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is not in evidence, Judge.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: 606. It is for the witness to see.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is an e-mail from Kristin to you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's August 9, 2005; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer Exhibit 606.
MS. PENZA: Is there an attachment?
MR. AGNIFILO: There is an attachment. I was just going to do this first.
MS. PENZA: May I see the attachment?
MR. AGNIFILO: Of course.
MS. PENZA: I don't think I received it.
No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Defense Exhibit 606 is received in evidence.
(Defendant's Exhibit 606 received in evidence.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I am going to show you the first page. It is 606. The first page is -- it's an mail from Kristin. It's to you. It's from August 9, 2005. And it says, "Here it is. I left the old entries in so you could see how they work. Most of my current expenses will be similar. If you're not sure how to describe a service, guesstimate. And can you do a new spreadsheet for each month." From Kristin Keefe; right? That's what it says?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know what this is?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember that you were going to have some expenses, you were going to be working and you were going to have expenses and Kristin was teaching you how to go about dealing with the expenses that you might incur?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Do you remember getting this e-mail?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. This is also in evidence. Do you remember her sending you an expense reimbursement form, this expense reimbursement form?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember her sending you a different one?
DANIELA: I remember this form but from other people even. It's a reimbursement form that ESP used.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you use an expense reimbursement form for yourself?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you don't remember getting this mail from Kristin at all?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just so we're clear, that's your e-mail address; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And that was your e-mail address in August of 2005?
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point you were talking to Kristin about having someone who could get passwords, e-mail passwords; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you Exhibit 607. This is just for you. It's not in evidence yet.
All right. So this is Defense Exhibit 607 for identification. It is from Kristin. It's to you. It's dated October 31, 2005; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer it.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 607 is received in evidence.
(Defendant's Exhibit 607 received in evidence.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is Exhibit 607. It's from Kristin. It's to you. It is from October 31, 2005. It says, hi, Dani. Please let me know about your friend. It's very important. Also, I noticed you are not keeping up with the book inventory and boxes as you promised." What's the friend that she's talking about there?
MR. AGNIFILO: Wasn't this the time period when you were looking to get people to help you with e-mail passwords?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is this the friend that she's talking about?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what's the deal? She says, "Also, I notice you're not keeping up with the book inventory and boxes as you promised." Do you remember that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because she goes on to say, "You agreed to do it daily and the current load has been on the couch for four days now. What's going on? Do you still want to talk about it? How do you think we should handle this with you so that everyone feels good about it," signed Kristin, or not signed Kristin, but Kristin's name; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember why she is sending you this e-mail?
MR. AGNIFILO: Let's look at another e-mail, look at 608.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is just for the witness. It is for identification, Defense Exhibit 608 for identification.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is from Kristin to you dated November 2, 2005; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, we offer 608.
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, Your Honor no objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 608 is received in evidence, publish to the jury.
(Defendant's Exhibit 608 received in evidence.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is two days later, after the last e-mail. It is Exhibit 608 and it's from Kristin, it's to you. It says, "Hey, you. Have you talked to your friend today? I am ignoring about the books. Love K"; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What friend is she now talking to you about for a second time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you saying that -- do you recall that it wouldn't have been the friend who's going to help with the e-mail passwords?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. We are going to look at 609 for identification, just for the witness.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: 609 is from you to Kristin. It is that same day, November 2nd; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: We offer it, Judge.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: 609 is received in evidence.
(Defendant's Exhibit 609 received in evidence.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is a continuation of the first e-mail and you say, "No, I haven't heard back from my friend. They're doing some work at Hale and have everything covered in plastic for a couple days now, so the books are staying then until the job is done. Sorry, Dani"; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know what friend you're talking about now here?
MR. AGNIFILO: So we are going to look at an e-mail from the next day. This is actually already in evidence I think as Government Exhibit 1515.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is the day after the friend e-mail and this is from Kristin to you, November 3, 2005, and there's two e-mail addresses there; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What do those e-mails addresses mean to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, does any of this refresh your recollection as to what Kristin was talking about when she was sending you these repeated e-mails about your friend?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is this the first time that Kristin is conveying to you the target e-mails for the hacking?
DANIELA: I don't know if it's -- they had already been conveyed to me by Keith. I don't know. I think this is the first time I had -- yeah, I think it's the first time that she sent me that, I think. I don't remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever get any e-mails from Keith about the target e-mail addresses?
MR. AGNIFILO: You're saying that Keith told you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: But here's an e-mail from Kristin with the target e-mails; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And after Kristin sent you this e-mail with the target e-mails on it, what did you do?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is already in evidence as Government Exhibit 1516. It is a two-page exhibit. I will show you the first page. It is already in evidence. All right. This is the -- this is three days later. So the Kristin e-mails with the target e-mails was November 3rd. This is now November 6th and it's an e-mail from yourself to yourself with an attachment white dress JPEG; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that is the image of a woman playing a cello; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Remind the jury what this is.
DANIELA: I remember this is an image that I had that I liked and I used to embed some code on to it and send it as a test to myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you say -- what's the process you went through? I mean, you have this image that you liked and you said you embedded something in it. Just tell the jury exactly what you did.
DANIELA: Okay. I would -- it's a technical process, but essentially I would grab some code and with a special application one can embed it, so, to direct it that when it's clicked on, the coding will run.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how did you learn how to do that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Reading on the internet?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you read on the internet and learn how to hack a computer?
DANIELA: The internet's a large place. There are forums. There are treads. There is like entire groups where one can do that.
(Continued on following page.)
(Continuing)
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did you find in particular that taught you how to do this hacking?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
DANIELA: I found a lot of resources. I don't remember them all exactly right now. But I found a lot of resources and I tested them and that's how I learned.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what's the first computer that you had?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
DANIELA: I think it was -- you know what? I don't remember. I think it was -- I think it was -- you mean like in my life?
MR. AGNIFILO: In your life.
DANIELA: It was like a PC that my father brought home and I think it was brandless. I think it was like an assembly, you know, how I can like put it together; the CPU with the desk -- it was like way back.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how old were you the first time you hacked a computer?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So what were you talking about with the computer your father brought home?
DANIELA: When my father brought a computer home, I learned how to open it. It was still DOS and you had to -- I just -- it was the first computer I had ever had.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you figured -- you went into the computer. You opened the computer up and figured out how it worked; is that what you are saying when you say opened it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But you're saying the first time you ever hacked a computer, an e-mail account, was -- were these -- the ones that you talked about on direct examination.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, this is already in evidence. It's Government's Exhibit 1527. I'll show you the first page first. There is an attachment to it.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Here we go.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. This is from yourself to yourself; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And it says -- attachments or downloads; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then we go to the first page. We go to first the attachment.
What are these things?
DANIELA: These are -- so these are excerpts of a key logger file, like a raw file. So these are excerpts, copy, pasted onto a text-friendly type and organized.
MR. AGNIFILO: And where did you get this from?
DANIELA: I got this from the log, from the key log intrusion, from the hack on James Loperfido's computer.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So just take this very briefly. What's the process by which this document is created?
DANIELA: Okay. So I grab the logs from the server. They're very noisy. I select the relevant parts. I copy and I paste it onto a text file, which would be this one.
And I do that, you know, methodically until I have all the relevant information.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then how -- and then who makes this actual printed document?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I want to show you Defendant's Exhibit 612, still for identification. 612, it's an e-mail from Kristin to you.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it says -- the subject is wi-fi spots. And it's from January the 12th, 2006; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that a little better?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. We offer it, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right.
Defendant's Exhibit 612 is received in evidence.
(Defendant's Exhibit 612 received in evidence.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So it's 612, it's from Kristin Keeffe. From Kristin Keeffe, it's to you. It says: Wi-fi spots, and it's from Thursday, January 12th, 2006; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. What is she sending you here?
DANIELA: It says: Hey... it looks like -- I don't know. I'd have to open that site.
But just from the name of it, it looks like it would be a list of free wi-fi spots. It looks like in New York, maybe.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you and Kristin had a discussion about you finding free wi-fi spots where you could do your hacking?
DANIELA: I don't think we had a discussion. I just knew that I had to do that, because that was my -- I mean, that was my -- that was what I had devised.
MR. AGNIFILO: Had you ever discussed it with her?
MR. AGNIFILO: When she sent you this e-mail that says wi-fi spots and, hey D, here's the link, and then there's a link, you weren't surprised she sent it to you.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember that discussion?
MR. AGNIFILO: You remember the ones with Keith pretty clearly, though; don't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. But you don't remember any discussions with Kristin, not one?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Tell me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
DANIELA: Sure. I remember sometimes I would ask her to drive me to some of the wi-fi spots. So there was that discussion.
Sometimes -- later -- later on, I would hand her the USB drive with the files. So there was certainly discussions.
And so, yeah, I remember that.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times did she drive you to the place where you would do the hacking from the wi-fi?
MR. AGNIFILO: Three times? Five times? Ten times?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have a car?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you went, it was just you and her?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever go with anybody else?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever go with anybody else without her?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is that?
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times did you go with your brother?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when your brother went, who else went?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's it? No one else?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, this is as good a time as any.
THE COURT: All right. That is fine.
We are going to adjourn for the day, Members of the Jury. I am reminding you that it is very important that you obey my instructions that you not discuss the case with anyone, not your family, your friends or business associates and not fellow jurors.
Do not read, listen to, watch or access any accounts of this case, and any form of media such as newspapers, TV, radio, podcasts or the internet.
Please do not research or seek out any information about any aspect of the case, and do not communicate with anyone about the case on your phone, whether through e-mail, text messaging or any other means, or through any blog or website, or by way of any social media, including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube or other similar sites.
If you are taking notes, please leave them in the jury deliberation room.
We will see you tomorrow morning at 9:30. Have a good evening.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits.)
(In open court; outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: All right. The witness is excused. You may stand down.
Do not discuss your testimony with anybody.
THE COURT: Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: About how much time do you think you will be taking tomorrow on your cross?
MR. AGNIFILO: If I can get my act together, I will finish before lunch. But it might spill over maybe 45 minutes.
THE COURT: All right.
Anything else from the Government?
MS. PENZA: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Anything else from the defense?
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing from us, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. We will see you tomorrow morning, 9:30.
Thank you.
(Matter adjourned to Friday, May 31st, 2019 at 9:30 a.m.)
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