4.Sylvie — Cross (Part 4)
1,436 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Sylvie.
MR. AGNIFILO: My name is Marc Agnifilo. I'm a lawyer, I represent Keith Raniere. I'm going to ask you some questions. If I ask you a question that you don't understand, please feel free to ask me to rephrase it or tell me you don't understand it, and I'm happy to re-ask the question.
THE COURT: Is your microphone on over there?
MR. AGNIFILO: It is. Is this better?
THE COURT: Better, okay. Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, Judge.
How do we get it so that the ELMO is the thing that's effective?
THE COURT: Do you want the ELMO?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, please.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, Sylvie, you have been speaking for the last -- a good part of this morning about Jness, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And, you, you're somewhat critical of Jness as you sit here today, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to show you Defense Exhibit 161 for identification.
THE COURT: For identification?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, for identification. Oh, yes, so we don't want to -- just for the witness and for the Government.
THE COURT: All right. It's displayed to the witness. You may display it to the witness.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yep, yep, yep.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So, it's 161 -- I'm just seeing if you can read this. Can you read that? It's not very clear. Hold on, one second.
Can you read that, Sylvie?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I'm not going to ask you to read it yet, but fair to say it's an e-mail from yourself to Nancy Salzman, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's from August 28, 2012, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it's about Jness, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I ask that it be admitted as Defense Exhibit 161, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor, can we have a sidebar, please?
THE COURT: All right.
(Sidebar.)
(Continued on next page.)
(Sidebar conference held on the record out of the hearing of the jury.)
THE COURT: Wait. Go ahead.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, we don't -- the Government doesn't care about this e-mail, but the idea -- this is non-impeachment and this is hearsay. This is the witness's statement and so if we're going to be just putting in exhibits as -- the Government didn't put in every statement Sylvie has made that were helpful to us. We put in ones where we felt there was a non-hearsay basis, whether it was Keith responding to her or Clare responding to her for some sort of context.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's offered to show that she, at one point in time, loved Jness, which is the entire theme of this case that she's changed her mind and it's not being offered for that Jness is, in fact, awesome, it's that she thinks it is.
MS. PENZA: No. He needs to ask -- Your Honor, respectfully, he needs to ask, Did you at one time like Jness. If she says no, then this is classic impeachment.
THE COURT: Set it up.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
(Sidebar end.)
(Continued on following page.)
(In open court.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Back in 2012, your opinion about Jness was very different than it is today, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were -- you agree that you have a negative opinion of Jness as you sit here today, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And back in 2012, did you have a negative opinion about Jness back then?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you again what's still marked for identification as Government's Exhibit 161.
This is your e-mail, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I offer it.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, objection. It's not impeachment. Sorry, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I will allow it.
(Defendant's Exhibit 161 received in evidence.)
(The above-referred to exhibit was published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So I would like it to be put up for --
THE COURT: It is up.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Government's Exhibit 161, it's from yourself -- it's from Sylvie to Nancy Salzman: Hey P -- you call her P because of prefect, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: How are you doing? I hope you are having an amazing week. Jness and the module were totally awesome today. XXX.
You wrote that, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you mean it when you wrote it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did your -- and so why -- do you recall what was going on with Jness in 2012?
MR. AGNIFILO: I can show it to you. I can tell you, it's August 28, 2012.
SYLVIE: That would have been V Week, so I'm assuming she would have taught a Jness class that day.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did your opinion about Jness change at some point?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have a positive impression and experience with Jness in 2013?
SYLVIE: If you're speaking about individual occasions, I would say yes, on individual occasions I did. And on others, I did not.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say that you sent a lot of e-mails and did you also communicate by text messages or WhatsApp chats at that point in time?
I'm talking about 2013.
MR. AGNIFILO: Nancy, Keith, other people.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall writing lots of very positive things about Jness in 2012 and 2013?
SYLVIE: It depends what you mean by lots, but I'm sure that I wrote positive things and that was something that we -- I often did after trainings. I would say you will probably find lots of positive statements from me from that time, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you something for identification, this is Defense Exhibit 174 for identification. We are not going to read the e-mail.
This is an e-mail from yourself to Clare Bronfman and Keith Raniere, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it's from April 17th, 2013, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall that something in Jness had just ended around this period of time?
SYLVIE: I don't remember. Sorry, I don't remember what it was. There was a lot of different Jness things.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall writing this e-mail?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I'm going to ask to admit Defense Exhibit 174.
MS. PENZA: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 174 is received into evidence.
(Defendant's Exhibit 174 received in evidence.)
THE COURT: Was 161 a defense exhibit?
MR. AGNIFILO: It is. Did I say Government exhibit?
THE COURT: You did.
MR. AGNIFILO: I apologize. It's a defense exhibit.
THE COURT: It's displayed. 174 is displayed.
(The above-referred to exhibit was published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Just for the record, this is 174 and this is an e-mail from yourself, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: To Clare and to Keith, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it's from April 17th, 2013, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it says: Hello. I hope you both have had an awesome day. I'm feeling so sad that Jness is over. I'm not sure why. I know that I have really enjoyed the caretaking and seeing everyone. I don't want them to go. LOL. Makes me want to have my own bakery even more.
Does this -- do you have any recollection what you're talking about there?
SYLVIE: Not really. I mean, I could try to make it up, but honestly I don't remember. There were so many different events and things around Jness that I don't remember, I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: What were the different events around Jness?
SYLVIE: We would have different -- we had, like, tea house things. So it would be, like, gatherings in the Jness room; we would have Jness weekends; we would have normal Jness dispositions and then there was --
THE COURT: We would have no more Jness --
THE COURT: Normal Jness --
SYLVIE: -- dispositions like the video you just watched. So those were like a weekly thing. I'm not sure if they were then. I honestly don't remember, but we would put on events to help enroll people into Jness, too, that could have been around there. I think I mentioned the Jness tracks. There were many different Jness events.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And what we also have on this particular e-mail is -- what is that at the bottom, all this -- the list of foods and it looks like it might be amounts of calories; is that what that is?
SYLVIE: Yeah, that was the continuation of -- in this one you can see my training log that I think is also attached. It is a continuation of my check-ins with Keith and Clare.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say you were sending this type of information, your dietary information, to Keith and Clare on a regular basis?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you would often do it by e-mail, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Would you say it wasn't always by e-mail or was it any other way?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember if you sent an e-mail every day?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what period of time would you say you sent an e-mail every day with your food intake for that day?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you mean two years, three years, more or less?
SYLVIE: It was from when I remember that I needed to get to a hundred pounds, I remember doing it from then on for a long time. I don't remember exactly when I stopped, but it went on and on.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And the idea was Keith and Clare wanted to make sure that you were getting enough calories to stay healthy, correct?
SYLVIE: I would frame it that they were monitoring what I was eating, yeah, that's what I understood.
MR. AGNIFILO: But they weren't trying to keep your calorie amount down; they were trying to get your calorie amount up.
MR. AGNIFILO: That they were not trying to keep it down?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. They wanted to make sure you were getting enough calories so that you would increase in weight, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you at one point were 89 pounds, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And they expressed concern to you that you were too light, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And they said to you, Keith and Clare together and independently, that they want you to eat more so you will gain weight, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And they were monitoring your calorie intake to make sure that you were eating more so that you would gain weight, right?
SYLVIE: I think they were monitoring my calorie count for sure. I mean, beyond that, I think it was to make sure I didn't stop eating and lose weight again.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, because they wanted you to get up to a hundred pounds at least, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's -- that's what each of them told you that they wanted you to do, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I want to go back, there were a few things that you talked about yesterday. Before you came to the United States, while you were still in England, you were an accomplished show jumper; is that right?
SYLVIE: It depends what you mean by accomplished, but I had done pretty well in ponies, yes, and like I said I had two national finals that I had won, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So national finals in the ponies for people 16 and under, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you grew up with horses, I think you said?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you own your own horses when you were a child or did you lease horses or get some horses some other way?
MR. AGNIFILO: So when you rode ponies, you rode your own pony that you owned?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this was -- you would travel around England with these shows, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you would trailer your pony, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have an instructor?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Did you have one pony or more than one pony that you owned?
SYLVIE: Over the years, definitely more than one pony and then I would -- towards the end, I was riding -- yeah, we owned both my two ponies. I competed at the end.
MR. AGNIFILO: And just because we're in Brooklyn and it's not really a horse area, a pony is a horse of a certain size or smaller, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's not a function of a horse's age; it's a size of the horse?
MR. AGNIFILO: And jumping competitions are speed competitions jumping over fences, correct?
SYLVIE: Well, they can vary a lot, but the kind that I would do were -- you could say -- you could describe them that way.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you said that you met Clare in Oslo or Helsinki?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall the -- what year that was?
SYLVIE: I think that I first met her in 2004 because that's when I did most of my traveling with the Davenports.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the Davenports were family?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no, they were a family, the Davenports?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was Clare an accomplished show jumper in 2004 when you met her?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you ever have sponsorship or did you -- did you undertake the horse activities of you and your family's own money?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you never had a -- you weren't sponsored by a tack shop or a company or another business?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But that does happen in show jumping, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: So the horses that you owned, that you trailered to shows that you were in, that was all being funded by you and your family?
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say that's expensive?
MR. AGNIFILO: Having a competition show pony is many, many thousands of dollars, correct?
SYLVIE: Well, it depends. I mean, we didn't have many, many, many thousands of dollars, so I think you do it to the budget you can afford, but if you are talking about at the top end, yeah. Like I said, horses and maybe even in ponies can be hundreds of thousands, and in horses, definitely into the millions.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you indicated yesterday, I think, you wanted to ride professionally?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you wanted to be at the highest of levels, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You came to the United States in 2005?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you came to the United States, you lived with Clare?
SYLVIE: I lived at Clare's farm. I wouldn't say I lived with her. She wasn't living there full-time, but yeah I lived at her farm.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And who else was living at Clare's farm when you moved there in 2005?
SYLVIE: There was Anna Boyd, Katie, Demi I think her name was, and my friend Catherine was there. And then there was a guy that managed the land that I think I mentioned yesterday, I'm not sure if he lived there, I can't remember. I think he did.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were 18 years old when you moved to the States in 2005?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you worked for Clare, right? You took care of the horses?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you got paid for that?
MR. AGNIFILO: $500 a month about?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Clare charge you rent for staying in the house?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Clare pay for your food?
MR. AGNIFILO: You bought your own food?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have access to one of Clare's vehicles?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't have to pay for that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you take good care of Clare's horses?
SYLVIE: I don't think that I did my best job all the time. There was a period in there where me and Katie -- when Clare wasn't coming out to the farm so much, where me and Katie weren't doing the job that we should have been and we didn't work as hard as we should have done, and I ended up telling Clare about that and admitting to that at some point.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you say you weren't doing the job you should have done, do you mean in the care of the horses?
SYLVIE: Yeah, I would say that they weren't looked after as well as they should have been, correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So it's a lot of work to look after horses properly, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What do you do to look after them? Give us a not too long and not too short version of what it means to look after horses. What do you actually have to do?
SYLVIE: Well, professional jumping horses, it's a full-time job. So, yeah, you're working full-time hours generally; you're exercising them, feeding them, cleaning them, cleaning their stables. Yeah, making sure they're well and fit and ready to compete.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at some point, you and Clare had a conversation about taking a five-day NXIVM program, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And who brought that up? You or Clare?
SYLVIE: I think I brought it up to her after having spoken to Anna, and that was what I told you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What do you remember telling Clare about you wanting to take the five-day NXIVM program?
SYLVIE: I remember saying -- her asking me why I wanted to take it and I think I said, yeah, that it sounded like -- I wanted to overcome my fears and it sounded like it could be something that would be good for me. That is what I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: You when you say it might be good for you to overcome your fears, what fears are those?
SYLVIE: Well, at that time, I had come from the background of having just quit the Davenports earlier that year and I was not -- I wasn't very confident in myself and I wanted to be an elite show jumping rider and I wanted to be a strong person to be able to do that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what specifically, though, were you afraid of?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure. Probably, like -- I don't really know. I'm sorry, it's hard for me to remember if I came up with anything specific for her.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Did you ever express to Clare that you had fears that you were not good at following through with things that you started?
MR. AGNIFILO: But in any event, you wanted to take the five-day program, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you did take it, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think that you -- and Clare paid for it, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know what it cost?
SYLVIE: I don't. I think I made a prediction of what it was, but I don't remember exactly what it cost right then.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And part of the reason you don't know is because you didn't pay for it, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said that when you went, when you went to the first day, you were freaked out.
Do you remember saying that yesterday?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why?
SYLVIE: I think I described a bit yesterday, it was just -- I was like a fish out of water, it was so different to anything I had experienced before.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, your family back in England, they had jobs in finances and in business, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you feel that, to a certain extent, that was expected of you?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you didn't want to do that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You wanted to be a high level show jumper, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you feel that some of the limits you were contending with related to sort of, like, you know, your background -- not that there's anything wrong with it, you know, just the way that your family was and you were trying to do something different?
MR. AGNIFILO: I know, that was a convoluted question. Let me try again.
I'm trying to figure out why you wanted to take the course, and specifically what you felt like your limitations or your fears were.
SYLVIE: I don't know that I knew that I had any specific ones. I think, like I said yesterday, the other girls had taken it, they were very enthusiastic about it, and I wanted to give myself a good opportunity with Clare. I wanted to be an elite show jumping rider and I felt like to get in with her and to get my foot in the door, that was a good idea; and they were so enthusiastic about it, like I said, and saying that they thought it would help me. So, from that perspective, it seemed positive.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the discussions surrounding how the course could help you, you had those discussions with who, exactly?
MR. AGNIFILO: What, if anything -- what did you hear about what could help you that interested you in the course?
SYLVIE: That she was saying that like it could help me overcome my limitation, and she was talking about limitation; and to me, I was not an elite show jumping rider and I wanted to be one, so that was a limitation.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so you thought that the NXIVM course could help you achieve your goals of being an elite show jumper, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you said yesterday that the people in NXIVM were all -- seemed very extremely happy and affectionate with each other. Do you remember saying that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now we just watched the Jness video, I don't know, a half hour, 45 minutes ago. Do you remember being in the room that day?
SYLVIE: Yeah, I think so. I was in the room often for those dispositions. I attended most of them.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's the Jness room, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: In the Jness room, no men are allowed in the Jness room, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: So it's a room that's strictly for women, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And tell me if this is right: The idea is that there will be a place that really is designed by women, for women, to be inhabited only by women, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And to your knowledge, did any men ever -- did you ever see a man in the Jness room?
MR. AGNIFILO: But other than that, it was a place where only women went, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if it was Keith's -- Keith Raniere's idea to have a Jness room?
SYLVIE: I got that impression. I'm not sure -- sorry, I have a hard time saying that word -- specifically. I didn't hear, like, Keith came up with the idea of the Jness room, but anything that was of Jness, I believed to be of Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All the curriculum of Jness you believe came from Keith, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say that all the curriculum in NXIVM came from Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you ever heard curriculum being created by someone other than Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: So if there was something curriculum-related in the NXIVM world, you would assume Keith created it, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, were you enjoying yourself or not enjoying yourself when you were in the Jness room in the video that we saw?
SYLVIE: I used to -- I never used to like going to dispositions and I thought I had to show up, and if you spoke to my husband, I think he would confirm that, that I would show up and that I would, like, get myself to go because I thought it was important to show my face.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have any friends in Jness?
SYLVIE: Yeah, definitely. I have friends in the whole NXIVM community. I think there were a lot of good people in that community.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had a lot of friends, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you consider yourself a very social person?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you think that one of the things you were looking to get better at was being social comfortably?
Being comfortable in social situations?
SYLVIE: I wouldn't have said that I stated that. I might have done somewhere, but I wouldn't say I had a problem with that. I know that I wanted to have a better relationship with John, for instance, and I didn't feel like I was a good partner, but I'm not sure that I thought I had, like, a social problem in that way.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I'm not suggesting -- I'm really just trying to figure out what --
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So would you socialize with your friends in the NXIVM community?
SYLVIE: I wouldn't call it socialize because normally, if we were meeting, it was either intensive or we were doing a Jness friendship or we were doing those kinds of things. I didn't do a massive amount outside of that and I'm not sure that many people did, to be honest.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, the intensive is what, in a classroom?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what you called it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Apropos is a restaurant?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it was a NXIVM location?
MR. AGNIFILO: And -- all right, we'll move on.
One of the things you said yesterday, I think, was that there were sashes on the walls in one of the NXIVM centers; is that right? Colored sashes?
MR. AGNIFILO: And have you heard that in martial arts, things like that, Tae Kwon Do, things like that, there are different color belts that people get as they become more proficient in that art?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think that you also said that everyone called Keith Raniere Vanguard; that was his title?
MR. AGNIFILO: And in martial arts, did you ever hear that the person in charge of the dojo is called a sensei?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if the -- the idea behind calling Keith Raniere by a title was inspired by ideas from martial arts?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure if it was -- I'm not sure if I was told that specifically, but it wouldn't be hard to make that link.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said when you went into the center you saw a picture of Keith Raniere, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: From time to time, at this point in your life, you're going to a federal building on a fair occasion, correct?
THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: At this point in your life, when you go into federal buildings, do you see a picture of Donald Trump?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever see a picture of Donald Trump in one of the NXIVM buildings -- no?
MR. AGNIFILO: Withdrawn, Judge. I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Next question.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: I think yesterday we were looking at Government's Exhibit 1007.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you guys have -- do you want me to use a hard copy or do you have it on your -- all right. I will use a hard copy.
I'm just going to show you very quickly 1007. It's already in evidence.
If we can just put that up for the jury as well.
(The above-referred to exhibit was published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were talking about this yesterday, it's called the rules and rituals.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so one of the first things that NXIVM tells people, who are thinking about joining NXIVM or doing their classes, is that they have rituals, right?
SYLVIE: I don't think you find out about that until you are taking the class. You just said when they join, but I don't think it's before they join.
MR. AGNIFILO: So when do you first see this particular document that says rules and rituals? When do you first see that?
SYLVIE: I think that's your first class in the five-day, so you have already gone through the processes of, say, those questionnaires, signing confidentiality, all of that stuff. That's what I remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, and this is -- but it's pretty early in the process, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, in NXIVM, you can do things to try to get promoted through the Stripe Path, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And just tell the jury, what are the different sort of stages, levels, in the Stripe Path, if you know them?
SYLVIE: You are a student and then you do certain things, including enrolling people, taking certain classes. I think you have to complete the 16-day maybe twice, and then you can get promoted to a coach and you have to like meet certain requirements that always include enrollment, and then they include different sort of -- I guess they call them like personal growth requirements and skills and things like that to move up the levels of coach, and the same again for proctor, but that becomes more things where you have to write things up that get approved by other people. I think at some point you have to take a test, so there's things like that that you need to do to move up.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think what you said is --
THE COURT: I'm sorry, what is the lowest level?
THE COURT: What's that?
THE COURT: From there, you go to coach?
THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And you can remain a student, if you want to remain a student, for as long as you want to be a student, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't have to become a coach unless you want to become a coach, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. This is already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 1008. This is a twelve point mission statement. I believe you were asked a couple of the entries from this yesterday. I want to go through some of the other ones, if it's all right.
You can read that okay?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
So the first of the twelve points is: Success is an internal state of clear honest knowledge of what I am, my value in the world, and my responsibility for the way I react to all things.
You see that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: It doesn't say, in this particular mission statement, that success is about making money, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, this line.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Here they are talking about value in the world, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And the second thing -- well, let me ask you, I mean, what I just read to you, do you disagree with that statement?
SYLVIE: Well, I guess I don't really understand what it means, like, clear honest knowledge of what I am. I don't really know how I would know that. I'm not really sure what that means, so I don't -- I can't say I disagree with it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. The second one, which I think you covered yesterday: There are no ultimate victims; therefore, I will not choose to be a victim.
Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, fair to say that NXIVM has sort of a policy in regard to sort of thinking like a victim or teachings in regard to thinking like a victim, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Forget policy. Teaching. There's a lot of talk about sort of victim-type things; is that fair to say?
SYLVIE: About not being -- yeah, not using the word victim or calling -- yeah, like it says there, that I will not choose to be a victim.
(Continued on the following page.)
(In open court.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO (continuing):
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your understanding of why you didn't want to sort of define yourself as a victim?
SYLVIE: I think like victims were people that didn't want to take responsibility for their actions. So it was like seen as a bad thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because Nexivm was very much -- the philosophy was you should take responsibility for your own actions, correct?
SYLVIE: Well, I felt like the anger was like everything is because of you. So, yeah, it depends how you look at it, but I took it to mean you are responsible for everything in some kind of way that happens to you. Yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Number three, I'm committed to be successful. I understand each of us must raise ourselves and thereby raise all others as all others raise us. This is interdependence.
Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is interdependence a concept that would come up from time to time in Nexivm teachings?
MR. AGNIFILO: Describe to the jury what it is.
SYLVIE: I think the way that Keith taught it is everything depends on each other or like everything affects each other. Like, say, what you do affects me and what I do affects other people, that kind of a thing, because it was like an interweb of effects.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you understand that part of what that meant was that I shouldn't -- it would be morally wrong for me to try and elevate myself to the exclusion of other people?
SYLVIE: I can't say that I personally understood it specifically like that, like morally wrong. I don't know that I took it that way.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me ask you a different question.
Would it be morally better if rather than just me raising myself individually, if I was able to raise the success, the humanity, the happiness of people around me, in addition to myself, within Nexivm?
THE COURT: Is the lamp on?
MR. AGNIFILO: It is. No. The lamp is on. Nothing happened. It just went off. What I will do, I'm going to come back to this when our power is restored.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said at one point -- we are going to change topics, and we will come back.
I think you said at one point that Keith was training Clare in horseback riding. Is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Keith train you, to a certain extent, on horseback riding?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure I would agree with that. I mean Clare was meant to be my trainer. So you could say that by default, I guess; but I didn't see Keith as my horseback training rider, whatever it is.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think what you said yesterday was that Clare was doing some unusual things; and, for instance, she was riding a horse bareback, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have conversations with Keith and Clare about sort of the humane treatment of horses?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have conversations with Clare along the lines of that the tack that's used on a horse could be uncomfortable for the horse?
SYLVIE: I can't say that I remember that conversation specifically. There was some cruelty that happened in the show-jumping community, that I know that Clare was against, and I was happy to be against that too.
MR. AGNIFILO: And tell us what that was.
SYLVIE: It wasn't related to the tack, but there was some cruelty that was used to make the horses perform better. It could be drugs; it could be other things.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, and Clare and you discussed that Clare was against that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you agree with me that one of the ways a rider can develop a better connection with a horse is to ride the horse bareback?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure whether that would. It might help the rider's balance. It could, but I mean there are lots of things you could do. So I'm not sure whatever that specifically does, but it definitely helps the rider's balance, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point Keith started helping you with your running, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us how that started.
SYLVIE: I think, like I said, yesterday, that I told Clare about my running; and I believe she told Keith and Pam, and that started with them asking me to come to volleyball. I think it was filmed, but I'm not sure I ever got filmed. That's how it started, with me running on the treadmill at that time with volleyball.
MR. AGNIFILO: Keith had certain theories about running and the ability to run races faster, correct?
SYLVIE: I think that was what I referred to as the R-tech technology. The bit that I came to interface with was the running as fast as you can at the specific speeds, which is what I was sharing yesterday.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So tell the jury a little bit about the R-tech technology. That was created by Keith, correct?
SYLVIE: From what I understood the R-tech technology to be was just those sessions. That's what I knew about it, was the running as fast as you could, as to 12.1 or whatever the speed was; and I think that was what I was sharing with you guys yesterday.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, and tell me if this is right.
The was idea if you want to -- if you want to run a race at a certain time, what you will do is you will train at that pace and then go for as long as you can, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Say I want to run a five-minute mile.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I want to run a five-minute mile, if possible, for a 26-mile marathon.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's my goal.
It's a very difficult thing to do, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I wouldn't be a lawyer.
What I would do is I would train on a treadmill at 12.1 miles an hour, because that's a five-minute mile, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so I would train at a five-minute-a-mile pace to see how far, how long I could run at five minutes a mile, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because in the beginning maybe I could only do two miles at a five-minute-a-mile pace, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: As I trained, I would be able to do four miles at a five-minute-a-mile pace, correct?
SYLVIE: Yeah. The point is to do it for as long as you can and get -- yeah, as far as you can at that pace, correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And it's a fairly demanding training regimen because, in a sense, you never quite succeed, right, you just keep being able to do it for longer periods of time?
SYLVIE: Well, you would hope to be able to do it for longer periods of time. I didn't have that experience, but maybe somebody does.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you were talking yesterday about a lot of the people, a lot of the women were on specific diets in the Nexivm community, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said that Clare was on a raw vegan diet?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you notice that a lot of the people in Nexivm were vegetarian or were vegan, that didn't eat meet?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was that across the board? Was that everybody?
SYLVIE: The vast majority, yeah. Well, that I know. I mean I assumed pretty much everyone was vegetarian.
THE COURT: Well, just a moment. Vegans or vegetarians?
THE COURT: Not --
THE COURT: What's the difference, for the jury?
SYLVIE: Vegan is no dairy or animal products whatsoever. So you wouldn't even have honey, like some vegans won't wear weather -- not weather -- leather, no animal products.
Vegetarian is no meat, but you could still have dairy. You might still use leather products. So basically you are cutting out meat and fish if you are a vegetarian.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Was there a philosophy or an outlook within Nexivm that it was wrong to eat animals?
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say if someone came to the Nexivm community and they were a carnivore, they would be -- they would try to talk them out of that?
SYLVIE: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'm not sure that I witnessed conversations personally where people were being trained to talk out of it, but you weren't allowed to eat meat in the center. So, yeah, if you weren't -- if you wanted to have lunch and you were in a training and you wanted meat, you would need to go and eat somewhere else because you couldn't eat that food at the center.
MR. AGNIFILO: There is no meat allowed at the center at all?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And I think you talked yesterday about that around 2007-ish people were doing something that you said was a master cleanse?
SYLVIE: Yeah. I think it could have even been before that, but, yeah, I witnessed a lot of people doing a master cleanse.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember a book coming out in July of 2007 called Master Cleanse?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I mean, do you know if people were doing this master cleanse diet because there was a book called Master Cleanse that came out in July of 2007?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right. Now, in 2007 you were -- at that point you had stopped riding a horse, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, was your horse still in the United States?
MR. AGNIFILO: You still owned it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it was still at Clare's farm?
MR. AGNIFILO: But at this point you had turned your attention to being an elite runner?
SYLVIE: Yeah, pretty much. When the riding fizzled out, that's what I started to focus on. So I was still attempting to be an athlete.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember in 2007 where -- I'm sorry for asking -- where were you weightwise in 2007?
SYLVIE: I don't remember, but if we went into my check-ins you would be able to find it because I kept that record. So I could find out, but I can't tell you right now.
THE COURT: Do you want to try the ELMO again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, sure. All right. Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. We are going to go back to Government Exhibit 1008. I think we did the first four, and we can go to number five.
Can you see that okay, Silvie?
MR. AGNIFILO: The one that starts tribute. You tell me if I read it correctly.
Tribute is a form of payment and honor. It is giving credit where credit is due. I will use tribute to uphold others beyond my petty likes and dislikes. As a result, I will define myself and my true contribution to humankind.
Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tribute was a pretty big concept within Nexivm; is that correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just tell the jury what tribute was and why it was important.
SYLVIE: I would say it was taught as like giving thanks to who helped you become you type thing, or it didn't have to be about you, but who created something.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Keith Raniere was given a certain amount of tribute for creating curriculum; is that correct?
SYLVIE: I would say he was given a lot of tribute for creating curriculum and other things that happened in the community.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's part of the reason he had the title of Vanguard, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: We are going to go to the next one. I will just read it.
Successful people do not steal and they have no desire or need to steal. I will not steal anything. I will always earn what I need and desire. Copying without permission or tribute is not the highest form of flattery. It is theft. Theft is also taking or receiving something without fully earning it. It is always at the expense, no matter how small, of others.
You see that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Stealing in the community was a bad thing, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: It would potentially lead to consequences, if someone were to steal from others in the community, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no. Just I mean was there an attitude. Let me ask a different question.
Were there things that were sort of done on the honor system within Nexivm?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell the jury how the honor system worked.
SYLVIE: There was a cafe where there wasn't someone there manning the cafe. It wasn't really like a cafe. I guess it was like a drinks cabinet, and you could get snacks and stuff -- you could call that the cafe -- and you could put money in the box, similar to like when people put eggs outside their house and they say take them, $4, and you put money in the box.
MR. AGNIFILO: There was not -- I mean, you guys, there would be nobody really checking, do you know, if the money box had a camera on it or anything?
MR. AGNIFILO: We will go to the next one.
Inner honesty and integrity are the highest human values and the foundation of the human psychology. All other values arise from them. I will never trade my integrity or inner honesty for any other value. It is never worth it.
Do you understand what that means?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. The methods and information -- I'm going to the next one.
The methods and information I learn are for my use only. I will not speak of them or in any way give others knowledge of them outside ESP. Part of the condition of being accepted into ESP is to keep all its information confidential. If I violate this, I'm breaking a promise and breaching my contract, but, more importantly, I'm compromising my inner honesty and integrity.
You see that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said yesterday you signed nondisclosure agreements, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was part of the idea there that you are not to take the knowledge that you learn from ESP and go out and do something else with it and maybe compete with ESP or use it in some other way?
MR. AGNIFILO: So they wouldn't want you to take these classes and then write a book about classes you took, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And had you worked -- at some point you worked for Goldman Sachs, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did they have you sign anything when you started working there, by way of sort of confidential or proprietary information within Goldman Sachs?
SYLVIE: I had an employment contract and I signed that, and that may have contained that; but, to be honest, I don't remember. I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. You wouldn't have expected to work at Goldman Sachs and taken information from Goldman Sachs and --
SYLVIE: Yeah. I wasn't in a high-risk department. So I don't think I would have interfaced with so much of that, but no I wouldn't expect to do that with anybody's confidential information.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me go to the next one.
True success is never at the expense of others. As a successful individual, I will never envy another's success. I will rejoice because I realize the success of others raises me up just a little bit more because I am also part of the human. The actualization of human potential by anyone is a tribute to all team humankind. If others are successful, I will protect their success against those who envy them. I pledge to purge myself of all parasite and envy-based habits and replace them with the habits of effort and interdependence.
Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was the term "parasite" a term that would be used in Nexivm from time to time?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your understanding of the term in the Nexivm context?
SYLVIE: It's like people that kind of drain off the system, like they are not willing to pull their weight.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how about envy? Was envy, the concept of envy, things that were discussed in Nexivm from time to time?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right. We can go to the next one.
I will unreservedly accept the success I earned. I will accept no more and no less. This is accepting with integrity. I will give unreservedly to those who earned it. This is giving with integrity. I will accept with integrity as easily as I give with integrity. To not accept what I am worth or what I have earned is to devalue myself and thereby all others.
Correct, that's what it says?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
THE COURT: Do you understand what that means?
SYLVIE: No, but, to be honest, I think something I didn't say yesterday, in my first training I had never heard of the word "integrity" before. I don't know why as an 18-year-old I didn't understand the concept. To say some of these things, I would say them, but I didn't have a deep connection to what they meant. Sorry.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: One of the things Nexivm didn't want you to do was to devalue yourself, correct?
That was one of the teachings, if you believe that you have value, you should feel that value and live in accordance with that value?
SYLVIE: I don't really remember that being pushed as a point, but, yes. So I'm sorry. I don't really want to agree or disagree with what you are saying.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right. I think one of the things you said yesterday is that you -- certain things that happened in the lectures caused you to think that you might have low self-esteem?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And were you working on your notions of low self-esteem in the Nexivm courses?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. What were you doing exactly?
MR. AGNIFILO: And were the classes helping?
SYLVIE: No. I still felt pretty crap about myself the whole way through. Maybe it's me, but that's what happened to me. Personally I struggled. I went up and down, but I was pretty consistently not doing so great about liking myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did people help you with your low self-esteem? Did people talk to you? Did people take an interest in you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Try to help you?
SYLVIE: I think some people were much more caring than others, and that depended on who you interfaced with. So I wouldn't make that specific to the curriculum or not.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is it fair to say one of the people who always took care of you was Clare, right?
SYLVIE: I think that you have to be -- like, I wouldn't frame it like that because at the time I thought she was taking care of me; but, when I look at it, even at the time it didn't feel like care, but I was always second guessing myself. So some of the time I would say, yeah, she was taking care of me, and other times I would say, no, she didn't.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to make sure I have this right.
You lived with her for how long?
SYLVIE: On and off, like many years throughout that time, as I said. Yeah, I would say up until I married John, on and off.
MR. AGNIFILO: So when did you start living with Clare, and when did you stop living with Clare?
SYLVIE: Well, at one of her properties, from 20 -- you know, 2005, and then on and off all these years through until I married John in 2015.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you ever pay rent to Clare?
MR. AGNIFILO: You did, when?
SYLVIE: Towards the end there was a period where I started paying for my room, and I think I paid rent for the car as well. That was in the later years.
MR. AGNIFILO: Clare paid for your Nexivm courses, right?
SYLVIE: Most of them. Not all of them, but most of them.
I paid for Ethos. I also paid for Mobius at some point. I did a lot of exchanges as well. And then she paid for others as gifts, or if she called them gifts, but yeah, she paid for others.
MR. AGNIFILO: About how many courses did Clare pay for, estimate?
SYLVIE: I have no idea. I took so many and, like I say, a lot were on exchange. Like I would need to itemize it because I honestly couldn't tell you that number. Sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you think it was more or less than ten?
SYLVIE: I would say it was more than ten because of the all of the time span and the number that I took.
MR. AGNIFILO: More or less than 20?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right. They were several thousand dollars for each course, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Clare paid for your horse to be flown from England, correct?
SYLVIE: We had an agreement around that; and I think I had that as debt to her, at least a certain portion of it as debt to her. So that was still, I considered, a debt that I had to her.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you pay the debt back?
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you paid any of it back?
SYLVIE: I started on a payment plan with her at some point, when I had more money working at Goldman, I think; and I sent money.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is it fair to say taking a horse from England, bringing it to the airport, flying it across the Atlantic, and trailering it to Albany is an expensive proposition?
SYLVIE: Yeah. That's what I discussed in my original proposal that I mentioned yesterday, when I proposed she train me; and I asked her to train me and if I could bring my horse, in what I was sharing yesterday.
MR. AGNIFILO: Clare paid for you to go to the doctor when you had certain injuries or ailments or things that were happening while you were training, right?
SYLVIE: We had an agreement around that, and I think some of that is also considered debt. So some of the times she would lend me the money, and other times I would pay for myself. And then me and John obviously got insurance. So it varied, but she has paid for different things for me in the past for sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Medical things, doctors?
MR. AGNIFILO: So yesterday you were talking about you had an abscess or a cyst at one point.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was all in England?
MR. AGNIFILO: So what doctors -- what doctor bills did she pay for?
SYLVIE: I think that she lent me the money for a colonoscopy in these later years because it ended up I had C. Diff as well. I got more intestine infections in these later years of being in the states; and she helped me get a colonoscopy for that.
I remember that. I'm sure there was other things, but that's what I specifically remember.
MR. AGNIFILO: So if you had to total the full value of all the things that Clare gave you, bringing, you know, the part of the debt that you haven't paid back, bringing the horse to America, the doctors' visits, the Nexivm classes, are we talking a hundred thousand dollars?
SYLVIE: Oh, I'm not sure. Because some of that was gifts. I think I might have around 40, $50,000 debt to her, what I understood; but we never had a firm number agreed between us. So I sort of just felt like I owed her a lot of money, but I wasn't sure of the amount.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then in addition to the 40, 50,000 as debt, she gave you gifts in the form of these classes, correct?
SYLVIE: Yeah. She would say this was -- like, she would like me to take this class and this is a present from her. I think I shared some of this yesterday too.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did she ever demand the money back?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said yesterday that you came back to Albany V Week 2011. Did you say that?
MR. AGNIFILO: You were living in England at that time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have a flat in London at that time?
MR. AGNIFILO: So when you left London and you came to V Week in 2011, were you planning on going back to London, or were you planning on staying in Albany?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was it during V Week 2011 that you and Keith had a conversation about you being an elite runner?
MR. AGNIFILO: How long had you been working at Goldman when you and Keith had that conversation?
SYLVIE: I think I started at Goldman in February 2010 or the beginning of 2010. So over a year and a half at that point.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you enjoy it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so who brought up being you being an elite runner, was it or you or was it Keith in this conversation?
SYLVIE: I don't remember. I mean, he knew that that had always -- my vision had always been to be an elite athlete, and we had many conversations about that; and it was something that everyone in the community knew, that I had originally wanted to be an elite rider, but I was still pursuing running and for the club at that point and try to do as well as I possibly could.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say Keith was always supportive of your aspirations and your dreams to be an elite runner?
SYLVIE: Yes. As I said yesterday, he told me he thought I had potential. I'm not sure he said I could go to the Olympics because that's what I had in my head anyway.
MR. AGNIFILO: He really thought you had that kind of capability?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he tell you that he was willing to put the time in, in trying to coach you, to try to help you to that goal?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I think you said earlier today and you also said yesterday, you would check in with him with certain things regarding your running training every day, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You have to answer yes or no.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And were you doing the same thing with Clare, the same check-in type thing with Clare, or was it just Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: So every e-mail you sent regarding checking in was to Keith and Clare, correct?
SYLVIE: Not every single e-mail because sometimes I would send personal notes to Clare. So not every single e-mail. I can't say yes to that.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And how much time, say in a given month, would you say Keith spent talking to you, working with you, reviewing your information, if you know, in regard to your running?
SYLVIE: I don't know because I would have said it was not very much at all, and -- but I don't know if he was reviewing it without me knowing. He could have been.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were sending him detailed breakdowns of your speed, right?
SYLVIE: Yeah. I was sending him all -- like the example shown yesterday, very similar to that, all the time; but I don't know how much time or what he was putting in on his end.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, we can stop here, judge, if it's a good point.
THE COURT: That's fine. At this time we will take our lunch break. All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits.)
THE COURT: All right. The witness may stand down. Please do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
THE COURT: See you at 2:00.
All right. Anything before lunch?
MR. AGNIFILO: Nothing from us.
THE COURT: From the government? Anything from the government?
MS. PENZA: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. One hour for lunch. Thank you.
(Lunch recess.)
A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
(In open court.)
THE COURT: All right. Everyone may be seated. Is there anything from anyone before we start?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, judge.
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor, the government would like to move GX-1353 into evidence, on consent of the defendant.
MR. AGNIFILO: We have no objection.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Could we have a sidebar about sort of a technical issue?
THE COURT: Just one minute. Government Exhibit 1353?
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Without objection, it's admitted into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, judge.
(Government Exhibit 1353 so marked.)
THE COURT: All right. You want a sidebar?
Sidebar.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
(Continued on the next page.)
(Sidebar conference.)
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: We have an agreement about how these WhatsApp chats are going to be handled. I'm not going to put them into evidence.
My concern relates to the few of them where there is a partially naked picture. So here is my question. I don't want it on my screen because the audience will be able to see it. So what I don't know is if we --
THE COURT: Turn off your screen.
MR. AGNIFILO: But the other chats I want to be able to read.
THE COURT: Well, turn on your screen.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
THE COURT: If you turn off your screen -- oh.
MR. AGNIFILO: There is a button? All right.
THE COURT: I have a screen. I have a screen -- I have an option for the witness. The lawyers always get it. So if anything is facing the jury, all right, then it belongs to any of the parties, you would see it. But then I have the witness only, and then I have the jury and the witness, and then I have the public.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. So what I will -- I will just turn off my screen for those things. What I will do is I will look at you guys, make sure that it's lined up.
THE COURT: Do we know what it is that you are going to be -- there is agreement on this now?
MS. PENZA: We understand what's going to happen. So we will -- hopefully it will go without -- we hope it will go without objection. We haven't seen yet the actual cross.
But, Your Honor, in the same vein, we were informed that members of the public can also see the jurors' screens. Now they have all been moved, but they might have been moved too extremely such that some people may not be able to see. So just such that the public can't see their screens.
THE COURT: All right. What about these text messages? Are we going to have more text messages? Because so far the witness has not really created the situation where we needed to show her a text message to refresh her recollection or to take issue with what she said.
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, I think the idea with these WhatsApp chats is, you know, it's her state of mind. We have gone through the government what we are looking to ask her about. I'm assuming, assuming, that she says yes, I did say that, I'm just --
THE COURT: There is nothing more to do.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not putting it into evidence.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: But I am going to tell her what it is. I'm going to read it so that she can read it, but I'm not putting it into evidence.
THE COURT: You are going to read it, if she doesn't remember, or if she takes -- or if her answer is I don't know, I never did that?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's kind of a middle ground. I don't want to have to put all these in, because part of it is the naked pictures, which I'm not going to put in.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. AGNIFILO: What we are doing, as sort of a middle ground, is did you send him this WhatsApp message, did you say this, did you say, yeah, I said that; and then that will be it.
THE COURT: All right. Okay. All right.
I first have to issue a statement to everybody because people are leaving garbage around the courthouse. So I don't know how we are responsible for this, but a complaint has been made at the highest level. Listen, I know where I stand in the pecking order here. I may be the master of my courtroom at times, at times, but I'm definitely not in charge of the whole place, so.
MR. AGNIFILO: You are my master, judge.
MS. PENZA: There is a grand master.
THE COURT: Please.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: All right. Let's just try this. Can we just try this out? Just put something on the ELMO. Let's see. Okay. So if this can be seen at counsel's table --
MR. AGNIFILO: I can see it.
THE COURT: And by the witness? All right. Now it can be seen by the jury.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, is there any way of doing so I can't see it?
THE COURT: You need to turn off your screen. That should be over on the right corner. There is a little light.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. Got it.
THE COURT: Did you turn it off?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
THE COURT: That will do it. I take it it cannot be seen on the two monitors either. Is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's right.
THE COURT: Okay. That's how we will do it. All right.
I just want to make an announcement. The building management has asked that if anyone is having a meal or a snack please have your meal or snack in the -- or coffee, please have it in the cafeteria, because people are leaving refuse around the courthouse; and I don't ascribe it to anyone who is observing this trial, either here or in the overflow room, but there has been a general request that everyone adhere to that basic rule that food be consumed only in the cafeteria; and I thank you for your cooperation, as does the management. Okay.
Let's bring in the jury.
(Pause.)
THE COURT: Ms. Penza?
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Please turn your screen towards you. Better.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
THE COURT: At the defense table, could you just turn your middle screen more in this direction. Thank you. All right.
Let's bring the witness back, please.
(The witness resumed the witness stand.)
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, everyone.
Mr. Agnifilo, you may continue your cross-examination.
I remind the witness that she is still under oath.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO (continuing):
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon.
THE COURT: Before we begin, if the members of the jury could tilt their screens a little bit in this direction. Okay. Thank you. All right. Let's go.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, judge.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Sylvie, you said that you had sent WhatsApp messages to Keith; is that correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you deleted messages you had from your phone, from your phone, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So what we are going to do is I'm going to show you certain things, I'm going to ask you if you recognize them, okay.
And just so you are aware, what I am going to show you is only going to be seen by you and by the government lawyers and by the lawyers at that table. I'm not going to see them because the screen is facing this way. Okay. So what I am showing you only you are going to see, they are going to see, and they are going to see. Okay. The jurors don't see it, and the judge does see it. Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. The first thing I'm going to show you is Defense Exhibit 230 for identification.
THE COURT: 230?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: If at some point I don't have it lined up so you can see it, tell me.
THE COURT: It's lined up.
THE COURT: You will.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry. Can you see it now?
THE COURT: The only issue is, on this one, is the full name.
MR. AGNIFILO: Wait. No one is going to see it. It's never going to be in evidence.
THE COURT: It's not going to be in evidence?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no.
THE COURT: This is just for the witness?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's right.
THE COURT: Okay. That's fine.
I'm going to show it to the witness now. Right on your screen. Do you see it? It's coming.
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Yes.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So you sent WhatsApp messages to Keith, and he sent them to you, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And I'm -- just answer this question with a yes or no. Your full name is on this document on the top, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Indicating that it came from the person with that name, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you -- did you -- were you chatting by WhatsApp with Keith Raniere in or around June 16, 2016?
MR. AGNIFILO: Would you agree with me that these are some of your chat messages?
SYLVIE: Yeah. I mean, like I say, they have my name on them. So I would have to say yes, from that standpoint.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right. So on the top there, you say, My back and neck, upper ribs, were so -- were out so that maybe -- that may be why I'm so twisty.
That would be you speaking; is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then, Keith responds, You seem not to be pushing to see me. I don't mind though.
That's what he responds to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then you say, Can I see you? That's true. I guess I was waiting to be told. And then you have a sad face emoji, right?
SYLVIE: No. It looks like I sent another message before that. Oh, it says -- I'm sorry -- because I felt I had let him down, it looks like.
MR. AGNIFILO: You say I was waiting.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So you sent a sad face emoji, and then you write, I am sorry. I don't want to be that way. I would like to see you. Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you right, Oops. I didn't mean to add the exclamation, but, hey; and then you have an exclamation?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then he writes to you, Even considering what I might do with you, question mark, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you write, LOL, yes, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you write, I think I am experiencing the effects of how I didn't push on my fear sooner and now I am getting the effects of my causes.
Do you remember what you were talking about when you wrote that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you say, I think J feels completely I -- I -- rejected by me, and I feel so sad because it's not true. I just push him away because I don't want to feel.
Is that what you are writing?
MR. AGNIFILO: And J is a reference to?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, I understand.
Now, you said, In the last couple of days that one of the things that Keith was helping you with was your relationship with your husband, correct?
SYLVIE: I didn't say he was helping me. I said I asked if he would help me. Sorry. I just want to correct that.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's fine. So you asked if he would help you, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So I'm going to show you 231 for identification; and, again, you see this, they see this, the government, and the judge. Nobody else. Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. At some point you said you started sending Keith photographs of you naked, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And this particular message is from June 21, 2016, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And that's you with a naked torso, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Under it you write, Good morning, with a sun with a face. How are you? I have been journaling on my desire to retract from things, people, and circumstances. Having some interesting memories and realizations. Do you think we can spend time this week?
That's what you write, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what you were talking about when you wrote, I have been journaling on my desires to retract from things?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then do you remember what you were referring to when you said, having some interesting memories and realizations?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you asked him, Do you think we can spend time this week, you wanted to see Keith this week, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Same. This is Defense Exhibit 221.
Can you see that it's dated July 29, 2016?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you recall if you had sent Mr. Raniere naked pictures of yourself every day between the picture we just discussed and this, in 221?
SYLVIE: I don't know. Because I thought -- I don't know the timeline of when I stopped, but I thought I had stopped by then, honestly, by my memory, but it looks like I didn't.
MR. AGNIFILO: You say that because in this picture you have sent Mr. Raniere a naked picture from the -- sort of your upper thighs to just below your neck, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: What you write underneath the picture is, Good morning, with two hearts. How are you? Today I'm clipped in part and can be flexible in timing up to 7:30 p.m. Might you have time meet before then?
MR. AGNIFILO: The partial message on the bottom is saying, I may possibly around 1:00, and then it cuts cut off?
MR. AGNIFILO: Next one is Defense Exhibit 222. The date, just so it's clear, there are two different dates with two different images, one on the left and one on the right, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: The one on the left is August 3rd, 2016, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And there is a picture of you with your naked torso, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. You have to answer yes or no.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then the picture on the right, that's from August 4, 2016, the next day, and that's a naked picture of you from your upper hips to your sort of upper chest, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: On the one on the left, on the August 3rd one, on these pictures it says, Good morning, heart. How are you? I will be up and down to center a bit today but back here this afternoon. If you have any time to meet, question mark.
Right, that's what you are saying?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then the next day, August 4, you say, Good morning, with a purpose heart. How are you? Do you think you may have any time to meet today? I will go down tonight for Logic class, when it is on, but will be up and around here in between. Not sure what time it starts yet.
That's what you write, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you agree with me you were asking to see Keith on a pretty regular basis?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you were asking to see -- you were asking to see him? I'm just asking you what you were in the messages.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember you described on direct examination an occasion where you and Mr. Raniere were up on the second floor of -- what's the address?
MR. AGNIFILO: On Flintlock, right.
Do you know the approximate date?
SYLVIE: I thought -- I thought that that was in -- I think I said between March and May. I thought it was in 2016. But it looks like I have some of the dates wrong on these things, and, like I say, I deleted all the messages, but that was my memory.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you think now it's a different date?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay. This is Defense Exhibit 223. This is -- actually, I have to go to the previous page to show you the date.
THE COURT: Do you see it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Hold on. Give me a second. Just bear with me one second, judge.
(Pause.)
THE COURT: You need to move it up. Is this 223?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, judge.
THE COURT: Move it up on the screen, please. That's good. Okay. That's fine.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you said on direct examination that at some point you said you belonged to John, and Keith said that no, you belong to him, or something along those lines?
MR. AGNIFILO: What you say here, you will agree with me, is -- let me go through it. On the left it says, I can work from there until about 6:00. I have stuff tentatively scheduled and put it all in Knox. What is Knox?
MR. AGNIFILO: So I was in the right place. Just trying to find out if my sis is coming here today. Will let you know when I arrive there. Then you write, Not if, what time she is; and then you say, I am at Monica's.
That's your Master you are referring to, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you say, Do you think this afternoon is a possibility, question mark; and he writes, Definitely. Why?
And you write, Hum, I guess I have tried myself to lose hope or give up. I am sorry. Then he writes, What time is Rachel coming?
Do you know who Rachel is?
MR. AGNIFILO: Has Keith ever met Rachel?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you say then, She is there now. I am going to see her a different day. I am supposed to see Michele from 3:30 to 4:00, and Jness comes from 4:00 to 5:00. Keith writes, Do you want to see Rachel now, love? And you say, Awe, I would have to. I think it is too late.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. You say, yeah, I would have, but I think it's too late; and then you say I made myself a slave to fear, with a sad face emoji, and then he writes, No, you are a slave to me, with like a purple like double-head emoji, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you say, Uh-huh, that's true, and it made me laugh, right?
THE COURT: Do we have a date on this?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's what I'm trying to get. Give me one second. I can show the witness the date or I can just make a representation as to what date it seems to be, because it's on the previous pages. Let me do it this way. All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: So the page before is this page, and then the page before that is this page; and that shows a date of August 5, 2016.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is Defense Exhibit 224 for identification. First, let me show you August 9 and August 10.
Do you see that there?
MR. AGNIFILO: And August 9, 2016, you have a picture of your torso, sort of upper hips to just maybe just below your nose, naked picture, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then on the other side, which is dated August 10, 2016, naked picture of yourself, maybe upper thigh to about your neck, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So the one August 9 you say, Good morning, with a purple heart. How are you? I think you were in my dreams again last night. I sensed you and felt stronger. I am determined to be a better, kinder, more loving person today.
That's what you write, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You are writing this to Keith Raniere?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then the next day, you write, Good morning again, sort of an excited face emoji. Sorry I was so slow. I was a bit spacey this a.m., with kind of an angry face emoji. Here is a morning still for you. Then you talk about certain aspects of your body, which seem to be in the context of running.
Is that right? Am I being fair with that?
MR. AGNIFILO: You are talking about how certain parts of your body are feeling and if they are changing?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is 225 for identification. Can you see that okay? Is it big enough?
MR. AGNIFILO: So the date on the left is September 1st, 2016. It's the same date on the right. Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: The one on the left you say, Good morning, Grand Master. How are you, with a heart. Have you enjoyed this week? It's been incredible in so many ways. Thank you. I can't believe it's ten already. It's day ten already. Correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So this is V Week because it's the 1st of September, and V Week is always the last week or two of August and early September, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And under it, there is a naked picture of you, kind of like mid-hips to, I guess, around your neck, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And then, on the right, it seems to be the same picture, but it's on different pages.
Under it you write, Good morning, Grand Master. How are you? It's gone so fast. Slow this week, and can hardly believe we are on day 11. Thank you for an incredible view. This year has been particularly beautiful, challenging, and growthful.
That's what you wrote, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, by saying just now that's what you wrote, is that not what you meant?
SYLVIE: No. I think I said before I would say whatever I thought was most pleasing to him. So, yeah, I said a lot of positive things. I 100 percent agree with you on that.
(Continued on the next page.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO: (Continued.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And so when you said that you dreamt about him, you were making that up?
MR. AGNIFILO: And these times when you were asked to see him, you actually want to see him, right?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure if I want to see him or if I have been asked to -- asked to see him. I couldn't tell you.
MR. AGNIFILO: You agree with me -- let me ask you, when did you delete these chats from your phone?
MR. AGNIFILO: You would delete them daily?
MR. AGNIFILO: And would you agree with me that you sent him a lot of chats, pretty much every day?
MR. AGNIFILO: It was required of you for over two years?
SYLVIE: That -- yeah. While I was a slave in DOS, I believe that was what I was supposed to be doing.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you have positive things to say about Keith before you were a slave in DOS?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I'm not -- right now I'm not talking about naked pictures at all. I'm just talking about --
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. You would send him positive e-mails, you would send him positive written communications, positive text messages, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: You would tell him how much you thought of the programs. This is before you were ever in DOS, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. You would tell him how much you liked the Jness curriculum, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so are you telling me that all these positive things that you said -- how long were you in NXIVM?
MR. AGNIFILO: You said these things falsely to him for 13 years?
SYLVIE: No. I think a lot of it, in retrospect, I look back and it's almost like watching The Sixth Sense film because I see how -- how that was the -- what we did in the community, we idolized him and, like I say, we would -- I think I said this earlier, yesterday, even on the stand, was that many, many positive things.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you felt them at the time.
SYLVIE: I -- I honestly don't know anymore. I really don't. I know that I didn't enjoy intensives and I wasn't -- I wasn't closed about that, I would share that, so what I said and how I felt were different.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, for 13 years you were in NXIVM and you stayed, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you have options in your life, don't you? You have monetary resources.
MR. AGNIFILO: You have a family.
MR. AGNIFILO: And where are they?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you could have gone back and stayed in England and lived in England, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you chose not to.
MR. AGNIFILO: No one held you there; you chose it yourself; you were an adult this entire time, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You can vote for the president, you can vote to make decisions in your own life, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Oh, your English.
SYLVIE: I do -- yeah, honestly, I'm not -- what's the question? Do you mind rephrasing what you're asking.
MR. AGNIFILO: Absolutely.
You can make decisions about what you want to do when you're 18 years old, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the decisions you made was to bring your horse to Albany, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the decisions you made was to make a life for yourself in Albany for periods of time, correct?
SYLVIE: It didn't always feel like my decision and I think I tried to explain that and I know, yes, I did -- you can ultimately look at it that I made that decision, I'm not -- I'm not denying that, and maybe I should have done something different or I could have done something different and this is what I did, but yes, I made the decision to stay in NXIVM, to live in Albany, and I was in it for 13 years, so I completely agree with you.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you made the decision to keep pursuing horses and to move up the stripe path, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: How far did you go?
MR. AGNIFILO: What level is that? How many promotions does one need to get to that point?
SYLVIE: Well, I think it's three or -- no. I guess if you count from student, it would be four, I think.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said that you had family in Vancouver.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know who Mark Vicente is?
MR. AGNIFILO: When was the last time you spoke to him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know his wife?
MR. AGNIFILO: When was the last time you spoke to her?
SYLVIE: We sent some messages a month or so ago, maybe longer ago, but we haven't spoken on the phone to her for a long time since she left the community.
MR. AGNIFILO: What were the messages about?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you talk about the fact that you were going to be a witness at this trial?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you talk about anything in regard to NXIVM or the facts of this case?
SYLVIE: I don't think so. I would have to check my Instagram, but I've been very careful not to do anything like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And are you friends with anybody from Vancouver who was members of NXIVM?
SYLVIE: Not really. I pretty much disconnected myself from everyone, so I've had a couple people reach out to me that I have responded to in vagary, but I haven't stayed in touch with people, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who has reached out to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Anna Lee.
Who else?
SYLVIE: I think at some point -- I don't remember everyone, sorry, I would need to check my phone or my computer to get it for you, but it wasn't a lot of people. Not that many people have reached out to me, I have changed my phone number, so they don't all know a way to contact me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, for a period of time, you said you were doing some coaching in Vancouver?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me about that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. Where? In the Vancouver Center?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who ran the Vancouver Center?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And when was the last time you spoke to Sarah?
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you seen her podcast -- have you listened to her podcast?
MR. AGNIFILO: I guess you didn't listen to it.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so you haven't spoken to Sarah since she left NXIVM?
SYLVIE: Not that I'm aware. I mean, I'm not sure the exact date that she left, but I have not stayed in touch with her, I have not had a phone call with her, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you know Pam Cafritz?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us who Pam Cafritz is.
SYLVIE: She was a purple in the organization, and I believe that she was in a relationship with Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you believe that she was in a relationship with Keith for several decades?
SYLVIE: I don't know the exact time span, but as long as I was there and as long as she was with us, I believe she was in a relationship with Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your relationship with Pam?
SYLVIE: She was very kind to me and, yeah, she would speak to me, on the most part, in kindly, and it was only a couple of times where she was really not kind to me and that's why it stood out so much, too.
MR. AGNIFILO: In what ways was Pam kind to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know -- what do you know, if anything, about Keith's, sort of, personal life and life, you know, with other women?
SYLVIE: I had my suspicions, but I can't say I know things for sure, so I don't really want to say I know anything for sure, but it looked like he had relationships with lots of women from my perspective.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Pam was one of them, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Pam seem to have a different stature than some of the others, if you could tell?
SYLVIE: Well, I think that Pam and another -- and another person, Marianna, lived with him, I think, but honestly, it was never -- I was never a hundred percent sure whether he lived with her because I don't think I asked that question, but I believe that there were two women -- Pam being one of them -- that lived with him.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, this is Defense Exhibit 232.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: On the left, it's a message from November 25th, 2016.
Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you write: Good morning, Grandmaster. How are you today? We are headed to D.C. today to see a family friend with J's parents then on to NYC tonight, back in Clifton Park Sunday evening.
Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then on the other side, November 27, 2016, message, you say: Good morning, Grandmaster. How are you today? I am coming home tonight. It's been a long trip, but I'm glad I did it and spent time with J and his family. I feel all the things you have been teaching us and especially Jness 9 and then Pammie has allowed me to connect to how much I love people and how silly it is to be afraid and hide from them.
That's what you wrote, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so what you're saying here is that you are saying that some of the things that Keith has been teaching you, and some of the things in specifically Jness 9 and from Pammie, have allowed you to connect to how much you love people; that's what you were writing, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And are you making this up?
MR. AGNIFILO: So when you said this, you meant this.
SYLVIE: I believe so. And I think, just to be clear, that I didn't say that -- I said that there was, like, negative things and positive things, but I definitely sent a lot of positive messages.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. My question isn't so much whether you sent positive messages, because you said you did. My question is: When you sent all these positive messages, did you mean it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, this is Defendant's 226 for identification, February 19, 2017.
Do you see that?
MR. AGNIFILO: It says: Good morning, Grandmaster -- with a heart. How are you? It was nice seeing you all -- all walking yesterday. You looked a solid family -- I'm sorry -- a solid team, slash, family. RL really helped me push on my fears and voice things that may have been eating at me on a deep level with J.
RA is Rosa Laura?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, RL is Rosa Laura?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you remember what you were talking about there that RL really helped you push on your fears and voice things that have been eating at you in a deep level with J?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you remember speaking to Rosa Laura in February 2017?
SYLVIE: We would speak frequently because she was my coach, so I don't remember specific conversations, but I know that we spoke.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you don't remember a specific conversation during this time period with Rosa Laura about your husband?
MR. AGNIFILO: You say: She helped me realize that I am actually terrified of men on a visceral level, right, you write that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you believe that to be true? Were you terrified of men on a visceral level?
SYLVIE: I do think at that -- by that point, yes, and I have -- I have expressed that to -- with -- to her, so I would agree that that's true.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you continue: And do a bunch of inauthentic stuff to feel safe.
Right? That's what you write?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you say: I was able to be honest with J and listen to him and his frustrations without freaking out.
That's what you write, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Does any of this jog a memory in you about -- I'm not trying to get into this too much. These are really questions about you. What are you going through in January of -- sorry, February of 2017 that's causing you to write this to Keith?
SYLVIE: This is where I feel I'm supposed to be sharing everything with him, and so I was supposed to share everything with Monica, that was part of the master slave problem -- problem -- well, it was a problem, but I meant to say "process" -- where you couldn't hide anything, that was part of the idea behind it, so I would share as much as what I thought was relevant, and I often shared things about John just to make it clear that I was in a relationship with John.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, so the things that you were sharing were true? What you're saying here is true, correct?
SYLVIE: To be -- I would assume that I didn't lie about it, so I would say yeah we were obviously having some kind of argument or something or maybe, but I can't tell you what it was specifically, I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right.
And the fact that you are putting red hearts in all these messages, did someone in DOS say you had to put red hearts in messages?
SYLVIE: Part of what we were -- I think there's like a -- the bullet point thing is, like, to show love and appreciation -- it may not be in those words, but for your master and him as the grandmaster, I was always showing love and appreciation for him, and I think for me the emojis were part of that, it looks like.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were putting red hearts because you thought that was expected?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you love and appreciate him?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
Have you said that you love him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Where would you have said it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why would you tell him that you loved him?
SYLVIE: Because him as the grandmaster especially, I felt like if I did the best job I could as a slave and be the best slave, then things would work out for me, and I'm not saying that's the right way to do things, but that's what I did.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, all of the messages that we've gone through here is these WhatsApp messages, you were a married woman when you sent every one of them, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you are still married?
MR. AGNIFILO: February 20th, 2017: Good morning, Grandmaster -- red heart -- how are you? I hope you've had a good evening. I am realizing how much I wake up in fight or flight or already feeling anxious. I want to change that. Is there anything you recommend? Off to train, then working from home for most of the day and meeting R-A-C-H for a bit later.
Who is R-A-C-H? Rachel?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is 227 for identification.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, the number again?
MR. AGNIFILO: 227. 227.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So it's March 16, 2017: Good morning, Grandmaster -- with a red heart -- how are you? I was thinking of you last night and how you are enabling us as our grandmaster to face our fear and to move through it to become braver. I thought about how a year ago I was terrified all the time and how much I distracted myself with that and how I don't feel that way anymore because of you.
And then it gets cut off at the bottom, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you mean that when you wrote it?
SYLVIE: I don't know. I mean, I was definitely pushing on fear all the time, so I don't really know.
MR. AGNIFILO: 233.
March 27, 2017: Good morning Grandmaster -- heart -- how are you this morning? Had mega weird dreams again last night. Off to train shortly, then down to center for Knife training for this a.m. and back up here to work and do -- what's that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Gold and values lab --
MR. AGNIFILO: Goal?
MR. AGNIFILO: Goals and values --
MR. AGNIFILO: -- lab this afternoon. Is there anything you would like or need from down there? Love Sylv, XXX.
Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's goals and values lab?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then two days later, March 29, 2017: Good morning, Grandmaster -- with a red heart -- how are you? Thinking of you and sending love. Is there anything I can do to support or help while you are away? XOX. Training soon followed by Knife work down at the center, Knife intensive, other work, and looking after the boys for Rach and Chris tonight, XOX.
Correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you mentioned The Knife a few times. Just tell the jury what The Knife is.
SYLVIE: It's -- how would I describe it? I think that it's described as -- or it was described as an ethical media company, like, analyzing news.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is 234.
March 31st, 2017, you write -- I'm looking at the right side.
And I tried speaking to Ana Gaby last night, I'm hoping she's able to change her state and reframe this, but she intense last night in saying a lot of things that just sounded and felt so visceral they didn't make sense -- sad face emoji.
Now you talked about the Ana Gaby thing on direct examination, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is this you writing to Keith about that same situation?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure, because I did speak to her at different times, so I can't confirm that for sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you recall what you and Ana Gaby were talking about in or around March 31st, 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you go on to say after what I just read to you is: Off to train, then to friendships, working from here and may do something social tonight, LOL, XOX.
That's what you wrote, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then Keith writes to you: Thank you. Also, you might tell Ana Gaby your observation.
Correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you write: I told her from the outside looking in she made a commitment and wanted to become strong. She is being asked to do the thing that would help her get strong and she is upsetting herself and making out like she's being -- if you continue on the next page -- tortured. I tried to use metaphors and share my self-experience and her arguments were, well, maybe I'm not like you and I don't want to do it. I will check in with her again and see if she's been able to change her state. I will try again, XOX.
Right? That's what you write?
MR. AGNIFILO: Does this help you remember which conversation this was?
SYLVIE: It could have been about -- I think your -- that conversation. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but it could have been.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So what you're -- what you're saying to Keith is that Ana Gaby is not doing the right thing; she's not being strong, correct?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure if I'm saying she's not being strong, but I'm saying that I've -- I think that I'm expressing I'm trying to get her to do what she's been told to do, yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what were you trying to get her to do?
SYLVIE: If it is that situation, then it's the story that I've already shared about when she wasn't staying committed to her diet. If it's not, it could be anything else, but I think, as I explained earlier, I was really persuading her to try and do it because when me and Monica spoke, she was afraid about what would happen to her, so I wanted to show that I was on board and trying to push her into doing it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you pushing her into doing it because that's how you really felt?
MR. AGNIFILO: Let's talk about that for a second.
At some point, you wanted to stop sending naked photos to Keith, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you went to Monica and asked her, Can I stop sending naked photos to Keith, right?
SYLVIE: I had a conversation with Monica. I'm not sure if I went to her like that. I don't know. I don't remember it going that way. I think she mentioned it to me first, actually, that I had stopped.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you asked Keith, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So Monica said, Ask Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you did ask Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Keith said, Stop sending the photos.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Has anyone ever threatened that they were going to release your collateral?
MR. AGNIFILO: Who said that?
SYLVIE: When we were invited into -- when Monica told me the collateral was there so that you -- yeah, but you were -- I was her slave and now she was my master, so that's -- I took that as, like I said, that if I didn't follow instructions, my collateral would be released, but -- sorry, so if you can ask me specifically what you mean by that, that would help me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. My question isn't what you took. I'm asking what people told you. Did Monica ever say she was going to release your collateral?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did Keith ever say he was going to cause your collateral to be released?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you don't know firsthand whether that happened with anybody; you heard something that it might have happened to somebody, but you didn't hear Keith say he was going to release anybody's collateral, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you guys had things called penances, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: So when you didn't do an assignment, no one released your collateral, you got a penance, didn't you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did anyone release your collateral ever?
MR. AGNIFILO: So tell us about the penances.
SYLVIE: Well, specific for me, they were to do with readiness from what I understood so -- from what I was told, that if I failed in my readiness drill or if one of my slaves failed in the readiness drill, then we would do a penance.
MR. AGNIFILO: What's a typical penance?
SYLVIE: I would do -- I would do -- and this was how me and Monica, I think, agreed it -- like, planks in the middle of the night and things like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what's a plank?
SYLVIE: Like, it's a -- it's a -- sorry, I don't really know how to describe it, but you're holding a position that's uncomfortable for your body.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's like a push-up on your elbows sort of thing?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So you do kind of a push-up, your feet are on the ground, your hands are on the ground, your back is sort of straight and you are holding it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. I'm only asking about you.
So your penances were these planks.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, for readiness.
Tell the jury what "readiness" is.
SYLVIE: That was where your master would send you -- that was what I was saying earlier about you needed to be available 24/7, there was no doc, and you would get a message saying, Are you ready, or just "R," and you had to respond, Ready master.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so at some point, you would get a question mark texted to you from your master, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had to respond in a certain very short amount of time, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you know where the concept of readiness comes from? Do you know why you guys were doing readiness?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And had you heard about the utility of readiness in connection with things that happened in Mexico?
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you heard -- only if you've heard about it, things that happened in -- let me back up.
NXIVM was very popular in Mexico, correct?
SYLVIE: I would -- well, I would say there were two Mexico -- or maybe more Mexican centers. I'm not sure about popular in the whole of Mexico. I don't think you can say that.
MR. AGNIFILO: There were centers in Mexico.
MR. AGNIFILO: And are you familiar with In La Kesh?
MR. AGNIFILO: What is it?
SYLVIE: I think -- well, I don't want to, like, not say this accurately, but my understanding is it was like an organization trying to help stop kidnappings and things in Mexico.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. In La Kesh, was a NXIVM project, right?
SYLVIE: It was people from NXIVM. I'm not sure if it's all of NXIVM, but yeah, it was definitely people from NXIVM and I think Keith was, I think, called the conceptual founder or the founder in some way.
MR. AGNIFILO: In La Kesh, was supposed to help in preventing all the kidnappings -- kidnappings in Mexico.
SYLVIE: I think so, but -- that's what I remember. I don't know if that's what its official mission was.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if the readiness training was in any way related to things coming -- concerns related to being in Mexico?
SYLVIE: I thought it was from SOP actually, so my memory was that it was something that we got taught in SOP, so my relationship to it was that it was an SOP thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And SOP is the Society of Protectors, that's sort of the male version of Jness, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to go back to the chats that we were just talking about regarding Ana Gaby.
THE COURT: Is that 234?
MR. AGNIFILO: It is 234, yes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Keith responds to your last message. He says: The most important thing in a mature individual is why they do or don't want to do something, not if. Mature individual often do things they don't want to do because of commitments or other moral issues. Only babies use whether they want to do something as a guide to behavior.
That's what Keith writes back, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you write back: Got it. Can I say this to her in my own words?
Right, that's what you write?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you go on: She just sent me these messages. Hola, I am good.
Where was Ana Gaby form, do you know?
MR. AGNIFILO: Hola, I am good.
And then it says here: Still don't think the decision is good or something that I want to do, but you know I just want to be happy and joyful. It is the first day in a few days that I wake up again with this feeling of stress and anger I was experiencing my life very happy and fortunate.
Now, are you writing this these words, or are you sort of somehow cutting and pasting Ana Gaby, or do you not know?
SYLVIE: They don't look like my words, but I don't remember what I did. Like, I don't -- yeah, I'm sorry, I can't really answer that.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay. And I only ask that question because --
SYLVIE: It's highly unlikely that I would have written something -- yeah, I'm pretty sure that I copied and pasted that but I just don't want to say yes for sure because, like I said, I used to delete all of these messages.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair enough.
It goes on: But this is not going to stop me. I know I don't want this and feel with no choice.
You think that's probably Ana Gaby?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then she continues: I don't want to talk about it anymore and will just do that order and then figured some things out.
That's what it says?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then the last thing, it says: Thank you so much for our call and caring yesterday. I appreciate that very much.
And then you write: The above two are from Ana Gaby.
Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then Keith writes: There are a number of issues with what she wrote, but I'm not sure if I understand her. Either way, joy does not come from what one does so she should be able to do this without problem. I hope this is what she is saying. She seems to base a lot on what she wants to do and what feels -- I can't quite see where that continues -- it seems like it ends and there's another message.
That's what it says, though, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, does reading through all of that -- because you weren't sure if this was the Ana Gaby event that you were talking about on direct or not. Is this --
SYLVIE: I think it is, yeah. But, like I say, I can't say for sure because I used to delete the messages, but I would say it looks like it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Understood.
Now, you said things started to change for DOS in about May of 2017.
MR. AGNIFILO: That was your recollection, though, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. This is 235. This is June 8th, 2017.
Do you see that date there?
MR. AGNIFILO: It says: Good morning, Grandmaster -- heart -- how are you? I feel so sad for you and our family here.
Are you commenting here on the fact that there's been a lot of negative press around this period of time concerning DOS and things related to DOS, do you know?
MR. AGNIFILO: You go on: I can only imagine the toll this takes on you. All I can say is that I am here and not going anywhere.
That's what you write.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you say: Running, work, and then DR, meaning doctor?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right. It's maybe two-thirds of the way down on the right side. Let me show you. It's right here. See it? You got it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
(Continued on the following page.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Running work and then DR to checkout GI again, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point you got an operation, correct?
SYLVIE: I had another operation in 2013. This I think would have been another colonoscopy probably I don't really know, yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to go forward to 236.
So for October 13, 2017 you say, Good morning, Grandmaster, with a sun. How are you? I hope you had a good night. Safe travels today, XXX. I will be working this A.M. Jness, and then going to have massage tonight, yay.
That's what you wrote, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And the previous there the October 12th I'm not going read it because it has to do with medical stuff. You say you're going to see a specialist again in regard to certain medical conditions that you're having involving your intestines, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the second to last one, 237. Keith writes to you: Hard day yesterday, I miss Pammie so much.
Do you know why he would have written that to you in or around the middle of November 2017?
SYLVIE: Maybe that was around the anniversary of her death, I'm not sure or maybe that was -- or I don't think that was when she died because I thought it was the year before, but I'm sorry if I've got the dates wrong.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right.
You write: I am sure. I am so sorry. There's no one like Pammie. That's what you write, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he writes: For me there will never be --
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sidebar.
(Sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the objection is that the following text message is clear hearsay in terms of the defendant's statement. The government has not objected to the way that this has been going, but a lot of what Mr. Agnifilo has been putting into evidence is hearsay and wouldn't otherwise have been admissible. This idea that he's going to put a text message in that says he's had a 30-year relationship with Pam and that he misses her, that is something that cannot come in with his text message.
MR. AGNIFILO: The relevance, Judge, isn't the truth of it. I am not stuck with this witness's answer that she might be making some of this up. I have the right to show the jury these are her genuine feelings and it's relevant what she says next. She goes on and on about how the tribute to Pam was so beautiful. And I have right to show this jury that this witness genuinely feels love and respect for Nxivm and for Keith and for Keith's work and for what Keith does.
It's an important part of the case and it's not offered for the truth, it's offered to show what this witness' state of mind is and I have every right I believe to confront this witness with her own words when she still has not given me, yeah, I said these things but I didn't mean them, you know, and that opens the door for me to be able to challenge that. Because I don't have to just accept that she's saying things but she doesn't mean it and she's saying things because she's a DOS slave. I have the right to show this is what she actually means. She actually feels these ways and she wouldn't write this unless she felt that way. This is just not something that someone writes if they're making things up. That's my contention.
MS. PENZA: I think this is -- what the witness has testified to over and over again is that she had mixed feelings about things as things went along and she's not saying that everything was bad or everyone was bad or every aspect of everything was bad, and so --
THE COURT: I understand your point. I'm going to allow it, you can redirect her on it.
Are you almost done?
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, can we continue please?
I do think there should be an instruction that these text messages were not offered for their truth.
MR. AGNIFILO: I object to that. There's been a tremendous amount of evidence in this case. To single this out, this is a hearsay exception.
MS. PENZA: Not this all of if, it's all for impeachment, it's not for its truth.
MR. AGNIFILO: I object to that. We can brief that if we need to brief it.
THE COURT: I'm not going brief it, we're going to do it right now.
I'm not going to allow this to go forward without an instruction, this is the time for an instruction. You want an instruction, you're opposed to an instruction.
MR. AGNIFILO: I am opposed to an instruction. It's not right that something is an exception to the hearsay rule it comes into evidence. If they want to do a redirect, they have -- they can redirect, it's their witness. It's not right for the Court to single out defense evidence and say, well, this isn't offered for the truth.
MS. PENZA: It's hearsay it is. Why can't the government get an instruction.
MR. AGNIFILO: You get hearsay -- it's -- a defendant's admission isn't offered for the truth with exception under the hearsay rule.
MS. PENZA: That's is an exception, it's not hearsay. Read the rule.
MR. AGNIFILO: 8033 it's then existing mental impressions and state of mind.
MS. GERAGOS: It's not excluded by the rule against hearsay.
MS. PENZA: But his statement about Pam is not his state -- that's not his state of mind.
THE COURT: Whose statement is this?
MS. HAJJAR: Defendant's.
MR. AGNIFILO: Her objection is to, For me there will never be , I'm grateful to have her in my life for 30 years. Is anyone really contesting that? That's just a statement. That's how he feels. You know --
MS. PENZA: It's all of these text messages --
MR. AGNIFILO: He's not --
MS. PENZA: -- are for impeachment.
MR. AGNIFILO: He's not saying, good thing I'm not sex trafficking, that's not what he's saying. He's saying something from his heart.
THE COURT: Who cares? Why should that come in?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because it's relevant to what she says, which is relevant. Because she then says, Your words of tribute are beautiful and she was in my heart. I don't want to accept -- the fact --
THE COURT: You're bootstrapping his statement in on her statement, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, but she's responding to something, she's not just saying this out of the blue. She's saying this and the fact that she has said that I have mixed feelings about these things makes this all the more relevant and makes it all the more important that I put it in the context that it actually appears in.
This without -- her statement makes no sense without his statement.
THE COURT: All right. Go sit down, I'll decide. Thank you.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: I think it's time for a jury break. All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits courtroom.)
THE COURT: You may stand down. Please do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
(Witness steps down.)
THE COURT: That statement by Mr. Raniere is out as it's not relevant to any issue and the witness' statement can come in but not with Mr. Raniere's statement.
We'll take 10 minutes.
MR. AGNIFILO: What I'll do, Judge, I'll start her statement as her statement.
THE COURT: You can start her statement --
MR. AGNIFILO: Fine.
THE COURT: -- if you wish.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
THE COURT: Yes. How many more of these pages?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think there's one more. I said this was my second to last one.
THE COURT: After that how much more do you have for this witness?
MR. AGNIFILO: Not long, 15 minutes.
THE COURT: All right. You think you're going have redirect?
MS. PENZA: Very brief, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We'll take a 10-minute break. Thank you, everyone.
Do you have your next witness?
MR. LESKO: We do. Your Honor, if we could stay on the record.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. LESKO: We have a number of exhibits we're going to seek to admit on consent, a bunch photographs.
THE COURT: Let's do them.
MR. LESKO: I can do them now.
THE COURT: Let's do them right after this witness.
MR. LESKO: Fantastic.
THE COURT: They're not for this witness?
MR. LESKO: No, they are for the next witness.
THE COURT: Have your next witness ready so we can go to the end of the day.
MR. LESKO: He is.
(Recess.)
(Continued on the next page.)
(In open court; jury not present.)
THE COURT: Let's bring in the witness, please.
(Jury enters courtroom.)
THE COURT: Please be seated. All right.
Mr. Agnifilo, you may continue your cross-examination.
The witness is reminded that she is still under oath.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the second to last one.
MR. AGNIFILO: So I'm just going to -- can everyone see it?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to write your words and here you're talking about Pam, Pammie, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You write: Heart. Your words of tribute to her have been so beautiful. She is in my heart and mind and dreams. She brought light and hope wherever she went and her loyalty was beyond anything I have known. I knew only the tiniest fraction of her if I compared myself to you and even with that, her impact on me was deep and everlasting. I send you love and can only imagine the depth of your pain.
You're writing this to Keith, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're writing this to Keith in the middle of November 2017, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then you say, Hey, I spoke to Moni. For now, for security I would like to not use any titles. Moni said to let you know directly. Thank you.
Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: At this point there was a lot of press in November 2017, there was press writing about DOS, correct?
SYLVIE: Yeah, I think so. I don't know. I kind of get myself quite blind towards that but when you say a lot of press, I'm not sure what you mean specifically, but the Frank report I think was well out by then.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Tell the jury, what's the Frank report.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the person who writes it -- who's the person who writes it?
MR. AGNIFILO: And have you ever met Frank Parlato?
SYLVIE: I may have done once, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I think if it's the same person I might have done once like many years ago.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he work for Nxivm back in the day?
SYLVIE: I can't answer specifically because I'm not a hundred percent sure. Like, he was around I think at some time but I'm not sure if it's the same person. I don't really know.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then at some point he stopped working for Nxivm and he became a critic of Nxivm, correct?
SYLVIE: I honestly don't know what his arrangement was. I'm not really sure. I'm not the best person to answer those questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: But the reason I asked you about him is because you said that the Frank report was writing things around this time, correct?
SYLVIE: Yeah, I think so. I mean I think they started earlier than this. I would have said it would have been out for a while.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to go to the last one. The last one is from Christmas 2017 and it is 238. 238. Actually there are a couple of ones leading up to it.
In November 26, 2017 you write: Good morning, how are you? How are you doing?
Right? You write that? Do you see that. It's on the left side.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then the next day, November 27th, 2017: Good morning, how are you today?
Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Keith hadn't responded to either of those questions, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then the next day, November 28th, 2017: Good morning, how are you doing? Hope you are okay?
Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now at this point there is no more DOS, right, you're not in DOS in November 2017?
SYLVIE: No, as far as I know is still -- in my conversations with Moni she hadn't -- well, she still has not said to me, like, you're not my slave anymore. So as far as our conversations would go we would agree that no one would use titles and she would just -- for me to stay in touch with her, do my check-ins and she would let me know.
MR. AGNIFILO: Where were you in November 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: Where in America?
MR. AGNIFILO: In Clifton Park.
You weren't seeing Keith around this period of time?
MR. AGNIFILO: At one point Keith went to Mexico, do you know that, or no?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't know at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: November 29th, 2017: Good morning. Hope you're okay. Think you may have stopped using this phone.
That's what you write, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Then there's a break, then December 25th, 2017, he says Merry Christmas, Honey. Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: From this phone?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you write: Merry Christmas.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you had any communication with Keith Raniere since December 25th, 2017?
SYLVIE: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't know if that's the last message, if that's what the question is.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you agree with me as late as November and December 2017, you were still looking to make contact with him?
SYLVIE: I still believed that I was doing my daily check-in up until I thought he didn't have the phone anymore it looks like.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Moni tell you to keep checking in every day in the fall of 2017?
SYLVIE: Yeah. My understanding was I was to keep checking in until I was told I didn't need to check in anymore. Except there I thought he doesn't even have the phone and he hadn't responded for ages and I guess I gave myself permission to stop checking in.
MR. AGNIFILO: Then he wrote to you because he had the phone, he had the phone on December 25th and he wrote to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now did Moni give you instructions to go on walks with him?
SYLVIE: I'm not sure. What do you mean? Like -- oh, sorry. I mean I can't really remember that specifically to go on a walk with Keith, I don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you went a lot of walks with Keith, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: How many?
SYLVIE: I have no idea, but I remember a couple specifically but I would not say I went on walk a lot with him.
MR. AGNIFILO: What was a walk with Keith, just describe it to the jury.
SYLVIE: Well, you would normally only go on a walk with Keith say pre-DOS at least and I don't think I ever went on a walk with Keith in DOS, although I could have done once, I'm not really sure, but it would be if there was something specific to be talked about.
Which I think I shared some of that already what I did talk to him about on those walks.
MR. AGNIFILO: When Keith would talk to you or be with you, was he sweet to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: I mean, you say came across, but was he acting sweet toward you? Was he nice? Was he kind?
SYLVIE: I would say in the majority of cases, apart from the cases that I've already shared where he wasn't, but honestly I didn't interact with him frequently like a lot of people did, but I would say the majority of the time he was sweet to me, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you feel that your -- I'm going to use the word relationship, I don't mean any kind, I just mean a relation between two different people of any type. Do you feel that your relationship with Keith was something that you did not have to share with your husband? Is it something that there was an understanding you could keep private?
SYLVIE: No. I'd say I didn't share what happened in DOS, but outside of that I shared, he -- I mean most of the time if I spoke to Keith after I was with John, John was there too if it wasn't DOS-related.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Keith and John they knew each other?
SYLVIE: I wouldn't say they knew each other, but John -- it depends on what you mean by knew. I mean, John wasn't a friend of Keith's or someone that hung out with Keith a lot.
MR. AGNIFILO: Describe their -- however you see fit, how would you describe their relationship?
SYLVIE: Well, he was Vanguard in the organization, he was -- I think he's head of Society of Protected, so I think he would have been someone that John saw as a leader -- but honestly, I can't really speak on behalf of John. I feel like I'm trying to describe what John would think. I'm not sure that's accurate.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay I don't want you to do that.
John was in the Society of Protectors?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know how long he was in SOP?
SYLVIE: I think from the beginning but I don't know for sure. He would have to confirm that himself.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you believe that SOP was misogynist?
MR. AGNIFILO: Anti-woman?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. And you experienced that from your own experiences?
SYLVIE: Yeah, I think SOP complete both of them were showing us the worst of womanhood, what they believed to be the worse of womanhood.
MR. AGNIFILO: I won't get into discussions you and John had about it.
When was the first time you met Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. You knew him from 2005 until this last text message, Christmas 2017, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And during that time he was your running coach, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you and I -- you and he had many, many conversations about personal issues for you, correct?
SYLVIE: I wouldn't say many, many 'cause honestly I didn't speak to him in the frequent way that many other people did, but I had conversations with him, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you agree that you reached out to him in writing on a frequent basis post DOS and before DOS?
SYLVIE: Not post DOS. I think those messages, like we said, where I still believed DOS was in existence.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think the juror might need some water.
JUROR: I have water.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. All right.
THE COURT: Is there a problem?
JUROR: I was trying to cough quietly.
THE COURT: If it helps, feel free to cough. Just keep your voices up.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry.
SYLVIE: So I was just saying I don't think I reached out to him frequently after DOS because I believed DOS was still in existence during that time.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: No, but I mean before DOS was created and after DOS was created you reached out to him --
MR. AGNIFILO: That's right.
Now you said earlier that on a number of occasions you said that you loved him, right, and you did say that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said that both before DOS was created and after DOS was created, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you even said it to him after you and he had the situation up on the second floor that you described on direct examination?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. So even after that you said to him that you love him?
MR. AGNIFILO: I have nothing else, Judge.
THE COURT: Redirect.
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.