3.Sylvie — Direct (Part 3)

SYLVIE: Good morning.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: I believe he said yes and that the next thing would happen in person.

SYLVIE: I think I was more just relieved that it was okay not to send the photos anymore and I didn't really know what that meant, so ...

SYLVIE: I'm not sure how much time passed, I don't remember, but at some point Monica asked me to come and meet her at her house and she told me that I would be meeting Keith, and I think she -- it was the day before, so I think she said the next day, I don't really remember, and she described to me what I needed to do in that meeting.

SYLVIE: She said that I needed to ask him to take my picture and that to go along with whatever else was going to happen in that meeting, but she didn't tell me what, but I knew that I had to ask him to take my picture.

SYLVIE: I went to -- I was told to meet him at Flintlock Drive, so I went to Flintlock Drive to meet him.

SYLVIE: There's a house there that I believe he used to live with Pamela at, but at that time, I don't think there was anyone living there full-time, as far as I knew.

SYLVIE: Yeah. The house was in between -- I'm just going to check the list of whoever I can say their names. The house was in between Kerstin's house and Karen Unterreiner's.

SYLVIE: I had been when I believe Pamela, Marianna, and Keith lived there together, I had been there for dinner and a meeting. I had been there for dinner once with Clare with them, all four of us or five of us with Keith, and I had been there for a Jness meeting with Pamela and Marianna a couple times.

SYLVIE: I walked from my house.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: I followed Keith into the house, and from what I remember, he took me straight upstairs.

SYLVIE: I think I met him on the corner outside the house, that's what I remember.

SYLVIE: I was just, like, terrified. I knew what I had to do, but I feel like I was having some kind of crazy out-of-body experience because I was so scared but I thought, I've just got to ask to take my picture, and that was sort of my focus, I guess.

SYLVIE: I think I got the words out somehow and said, like, Will you take my picture, or something like that, and he said yes, and then he told me to get undressed and then to lie back on the bed.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: The bed. So I laid back on the bed and -- and then he, I guess you call it, went down on me and -- and I just remember it -- I felt like it was going -- I just remember I felt like it was going on for a really long time, and I think I was, like -- I started to try and think, like, when is this going to end, and I think I was making the kind of sounds that I thought might bring it. You know, like, I thought if I portray, like, this is enough or I've had a good time or somehow something that makes it sound like it should be finished, I was doing anything to make it stop basically, but I felt like it went on for a really, really long time, and I think eventually my body -- I had -- I don't know, because I don't think I've ever had an orgasm before this, but it felt almost like I had an out-of-body fit where I completely lost control of my body, and then after that it stopped.

SYLVIE: No.

SYLVIE: Because I thought that that was what I was tasked to do was to go there, ask him to take my picture, and do whatever happened after that, go along with whatever happened. I understood that that was a command from my master and that that was part of my role as a slave in order to do what I was supposed to without getting into trouble.

SYLVIE: Collateral. The release of the collateral.

SYLVIE: I remember he came up next to me on the bed and was saying -- like, he might have kissed me or something, I don't really remember, but he was saying things like, You're very -- you're so brave, and that's -- he used the word "special," and I think he told me that -- he says, Now you are part of the inner circle, and he said, This -- I'm -- he told me that -- I don't remember if any of this is in order, by the way. I'm just, like -- these are the things that I remember. But he also told me that he was -- he was my grandmaster now and that he was the master of Monica, who is my master. And he said that now I can ask him -- like, now I had some kind of special privilege; like, I could ask him for help in whatever I wanted, something like that, and I think I asked him whether he would help me with my marriage because I sort of want -- I don't -- that's what I wanted help with, and I think he said yes, he would.

SYLVIE: No.

SYLVIE: I remember the thing that kind of sparked anger in me more than anything was the use of the word "special" actually and that he was calling me "brave," because I felt so disgusting and ashamed, so I just thought -- I felt like it was all lies, like it just felt disgusting, and it wasn't true and I felt -- I don't even remember if I was responding, but I do remember hearing my own voice and it sounded so high pitched that I felt like it wasn't even me that was experiencing this thing.

SYLVIE: He got -- he asked to give me -- give him my phone so that he could take the picture and he set me up the way he wanted me for the picture, and I do actually also remember him asking me if I liked my body, and I can't remember what I said, but he said, I like your body, or something like that. And he said, You're beautiful inside and out, or something like that, and then he took a picture, which I think the first time turned out to be a video and it wasn't supposed to be a video, so he, like, deleted that one or something, and then he took another picture on my phone in the chat to Monica in the secret chat that I had to her, so it would be like -- look like it's a message from me to Monica.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I think he like opened my legs more and it was like a picture that mostly featured I'd say my vagina.

SYLVIE: Like, it just felt like in a whole different realm of darkness. I felt like the whole thing -- I don't even -- in some ways I don't even know how we got there, like it was nothing like what I expected in the conversation with Monica in the JNess room about me becoming a better person.

SYLVIE: So, he sent the picture to Monica through that channel that we had and I got dressed and I left and I think I asked Monica if I could delete the picture from the chat because I didn't want that picture just in the chat for me and her to see and so she said yes so I deleted it and then I think the next morning, I think it was the next morning because I was at the gym and I used to go to the gym in the morning, Monica started sending me all these messages saying I had to get the picture back and like I've got to try and retrieve the picture and we needed the picture but because it was a secret chat if you delete the message, you can't get it back and so I was trying to figure out a way to get it back. There didn't seem to be a help desk for Telegram, there just isn't one I don't think. I was Googling it. I was kind of frantically trying to get what she was asking for. I eventually told her I can't get the photo back, I think it's gone, so she said we are going to have to do it again.

SYLVIE: It was arranged for me, I think she arranged it, I'm not sure, it was arranged I think even that same day I was to go back to the house and to meet Keith again so he could take my picture and this time we literally just met, went upstairs, I got undressed, he took the picture in the chat I think in a similar way, position to the time the day before and then I waited until Monica said to me, okay, now you can delete it and so then I was able to delete it.

SYLVIE: I don't remember, I'm not sure, probably but honestly I don't remember.

SYLVIE: I think it was the same way. It wasn't drastically different in any way. I don't know if it looked exactly the same but if I was naked lying back on the bed with my legs open.

SYLVIE: Not directly. I think you could see the edge of my face but the focus seemed to be more on my vagina again.

SYLVIE: I felt -- I think I just felt shame, all around that time I felt so much shame and still do honestly about this whole thing and so -- sorry -- I just -- I, even whatever I said at the time, I just felt like everything was just lies and secrets and darkness. Like I say, it was such a horrible time.

SYLVIE: I almost had to make it like it didn't -- like block it out of my mind like a separate thing to me because that was completely against everything to do with my marriage to John, like John was not having sex with anyone else and I wasn't supposed to have any relationship with anyone else and I wouldn't have and so I was going completely against our marriage and I just -- it was so hard to be -- I couldn't have been myself in that relationship because I was living a lie.

SYLVIE: I didn't have any respect for him and I thought -- I just did whatever I could after that to avoid him. I carried on with the messages like I was supposed to and I would message a lot but I didn't purposely bump into him, hang out with him. I hardly had anything to do with him on purpose in person unless I was asked to and I don't even remember being asked to meet him again specifically and so, yeah, I just made sure that if I had to communicate with him, most of the time it was through message.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I went to -- it was right after that experience, it was even the next day, I think it was the next day I went to coach a five-day in Miami, an intensive. I'm pretty sure it was like literally right after the in-person meeting, the second one and, yeah, I just felt -- I got really sick when I got there and I spent the whole first day pretty much in bed. I remember I threw up in Whole Foods. I couldn't really get it together. I wasn't sure if I had food poisoning or something, I just felt so gross and, yeah, I ended up having to take a day or -- it was either a whole day or half a day out with the coaching so I didn't do my coaching for at least half of one of the days because I just, I felt horrible.

SYLVIE: Yeah, definitely, I didn't break my commitment to the communications at all.

SYLVIE: No. I used to tell both the defendant -- or Keith Raniere whatever I thought he wanted to hear because honestly I did think that was what I needed to do to navigate this whole situation without getting punished in any way. The same with my master, I tried to do things the way I was asked and perform to what was asked of me. That was my strategy to move through this in a way that I thought would keep me out of trouble.

SYLVIE: Yeah, at some point, and I can't really remember what prompted this conversation but -- and I don't know if it was related specifically to this one because, like I say, I always deleted the chats but I feel like it stemmed from a conversation where I think he sent me a message saying, I wish you weren't so scared of me or something like that and somehow we started talking about my relationship with John in the messages and I said something like my commitment is to John and he said, no, your ultimate commitment is to me, I'm your grand master or something like that. And I just thought -- then I felt even more like just disgusted and had zero respect for him because I had never made the original commitment to him, I married John before DOS, it had nothing to do with that.

SYLVIE: Well, for almost the whole of our marriage up to that point I was living a lie and so I think he experienced probably the worst of me for most of those few years because I was anxious all the time, I was often -- I couldn't sleep, like I was stressed out and wound up all the time and I -- where things would happen, like he wanted to go camping and we once had this argument because I was like, oh, no, I cannot leave my phone and I didn't have a good explanation for why we couldn't go to places where I wouldn't have the phone signal. So, we would get into stupid arguments like that a lot and I'm just so grateful that he stuck with me because I don't think it was easy for him in any way.

SYLVIE: Yeah, not official assignments actually, I mean I had -- oh, there is recruiting of other people, that was the next I recall specific thing where I needed to send her a list of people, she asked me to send her a list of people that I could see recruiting as slaves.

SYLVIE: Yeah. So, at some point in the summer -- and I think that could have been the summer of 2016 or it must have been actually because that was the summer that -- before everything started happening, but she gave me access to, I think it was 20 or more articles and I had to read each article that was apparently written by Keith Raniere and then follow a questionnaire to rate how good they were or how impactful I thought they were and any notes or comments I had on the afterthoughts.

SYLVIE: I did it, I structured it for myself because I think I had a two-week deadline so I would work on it a bit every day and I think it would be like one to two hours daily on this project through that two-week time period.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I used to run errands for her, like I would get grocery shopping for her, pick up her prescriptions, stuff like that, and then also she asked me to look after her dog and I ended up looking after her dog for maybe as long as a six-month period we had her dog living at our house and then when it wasn't, I would be going over to walk her dog frequently, almost every day or do things to do with her dog a lot of the time.

SYLVIE: No.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I think so. I mean I had never done it for work before but I know that people paid people to clean their houses and do tasks like errands and things like that.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: It was quite -- I'm not sure exactly when it was but I felt like it was quite late on that Monica told me that we needed to strengthen the collateral, I think it was month by month and so I needed to like backdate mine because I hadn't been doing that and so I had to give her like a few months collateral in one go and then get on a schedule with her of doing that.

SYLVIE: Well, she gave me some suggestions, so like there were -- I wrote more letters that were damaging and upsetting to people that loved me or cared about me with the idea that if they ever received that letter, it would completely destroy my relationship with them and that included John, letters to John. And then also she -- I had committed that she would get half of my income or it was a chunk of my income, I'm not sure of the exact amount. At some point I committed that -- like I couldn't -- in the letter I stated that she had power over whether I was allowed to have children or not, that was a form of collateral. And then also there was another one and I can't remember what it was but, yeah, there was a few because I had to come up with a lot in one go and I can't remember exactly what they all were.

SYLVIE: Well, I used to -- the way that I would think about it and the way that I was encouraged to think about it is what would be most destroying for me if it ever came out. So, it was like what would be -- what could ultimately leave me with nobody that would love me or care about me and left me completely alone in the world with nothing was the idea. So, it was all things related to that. Also, at some point Monica had showed me this script, it was like a bullet-pointed list of how you should view your master and what you should do or think about as a slave to your master and so that was also like a guide of how to come up with these kind of things to me.

SYLVIE: Yes, that was another thing, I was asked to write a vow, like a live commitment vow to Monica and that we would have some kind of a ceremony where I would say the vow and that she would put this necklace on me with a clasp that was supposedly never able to be undone and so I wrote the vow and she approved it and then we eventually met and she put the necklace on me with the clasp.

SYLVIE: I think she called it a dog collar, that's why I remember.

SYLVIE: No, and everything that she asked of me was not like optional in my mind, it was a command from my master.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: I think that was at the end of 2016.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I mean for me I was being paid by Clare Bronfman to help the memorial, like to help -- I don't even really know what you call that, I was doing logistical stuff for her because they were arranging a big memorial event, I'm not really sure if you call it that, a memorial I guess. And so, as part of that there was all these things that they wanted transcribed and I say they, I think it was Keith and Clare that wanted them transcribed or whoever was organizing those things but I'm sure I got the task from Clare because it was Clare who was paying me but it was a lot of work, like I would have never got it done in the deadline of when it needed to be so it was -- I think it was her that told me there was some people that I could ask for help, so a group of names.

SYLVIE: From what I remember, and I'm just going to look at the list, there was the people -- they were girls that were all staying with Allison Mack and so I think it was Nicole and J that helped, I think India helped and Michelle as well, they were all working on it for me because it had to be done in a really tight time frame, it was like 48 hours or something and there was like hours of transcription to get done.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I got most, if not all of the work back so I believe they did, yeah.

SYLVIE: I don't believe they were, at least not that I was aware of.

SYLVIE: I was, yeah.

SYLVIE: Yeah, at some point she told me that I was going to get to meet someone else that was a slave of hers.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: I don't need to look at the list then, Ana Gaby.

SYLVIE: Lickneeny (ph), she was involved in another one of Keith's companies called XOSO.

SYLVIE: It was kind of like a -- I would call it like a fitness class, it was more to do with, you know, movement and like strength and exercise.

SYLVIE: Yeah, she came over to my house and we had a bit of a conversation about it but we weren't really sure what we were allowed to say and what we weren't so it was very kind of fractured but we tried to talk about it a little bit.

SYLVIE: No.

SYLVIE: Yeah, at some point I was a mentor in a class called -- it's not a class, it's an intensive that was called Human Pain and Lauren Salzman was the head trainer and she put me as, they call it a mentor of Ana Gaby in that training so we -- and we had already met then so we both knew each other was a slave of Monica's and so we ended up spending a lot of time together in those eight days.

SYLVIE: We -- well, I mean we got on really well during those days and I thought that, I was like, wow, I really like her. I don't know what she told me specifically. A lot of the classes, it was structured around me asking her the questions I was supposed to as a mentor in Human Pain but more we just had a lot of fun together and I got to know her. At the time she was doing some kind of liquid diet so I think she was telling me about her diet a bit and she told me about how she had struggled growing up as a dancer -- she was a dancer, she was a ballet dancer and how she struggled with her weight growing up and it was hard for her to be the right size to be a dancer or what she framed as that and so she shared some more like personal things about her and her life and so I just felt like we became a lot closer during those days.

SYLVIE: Yeah, at some point Monica contacted me and said that she was having trouble with Ana Gaby and that Ana Gaby was being like defiant or something and she was worried that we -- I said we, that she was going to have to release Ana Gaby's collateral, I think she said --

SYLVIE: So, Monica Duran called me and said she was having some problems with Ana Gaby and I think that she used the word Ana Gaby was being defiant or something, she was worried that Ana Gaby's collateral was going to have to be released. I remember her saying Keith has mentioned she may need to be the first one to fall or some kind of phrase like that and she was really worried that if Ana Gaby didn't do what she was being asked, that her collateral would have to be released and she asked me to speak to Ana Gaby.

SYLVIE: I called Ana Gaby and I was -- sort of asked her what was going on and she was really upset and she seemed angry and she was saying things like this is --

SYLVIE: She was saying things like this is fucked up -- sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, but that was the kind of thing that she was saying, she didn't want to send naked pictures anymore, this whole thing was messed up and it was about -- the thing that she wasn't doing was sticking to her 800 calorie diet that she was supposed to be on and I said -- I was trying to persuade her to stick to it because honestly I was worried about her with the collateral as well and I didn't want her collateral to be released, I was trying to persuade her to do what she was being told to do.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: I don't remember exactly but it wasn't -- I don't think -- it may have been mentioned at the beginning but it was like it was going to happen at some point and it would get mentioned every now and again that there was going to be like a brand at some point but it wasn't until closer to the end that I more officially found out what that meant.

SYLVIE: No, but it was described to me by Monica as it would be a bit like a little tattoo or something she said.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: So, Monica -- well, way down the line if that -- are you referring to when it was organized for me to have a brand?

SYLVIE: When she got her brand.

SYLVIE: She showed me the brand and it looked like a bit of a kind of open woundy (sic) scar type thing and she traced it and said -- and showed it to me saying that it was Keith's initials and that when I got a brand it would be a mixture of Keith's initials and her initials, that's what she told me and she showed it to me where it was on her body.

SYLVIE: It didn't look like a tattoo, it looked more like a cut, like an injury -- I don't know if you know what I mean but like a paper cut kind of but much bigger than that, so it was like a slit in the skin but in the shape of a K and an R.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: Monica Duran asked me to send a list of names of people that I thought might sort of trust me enough to go through the process that I went through with her in terms of our being invited to a special project, that thing, that process. So, I sent her a list of names of women that I knew in the community and then she would -- was approving or not approving of who on that list I should approach.

SYLVIE: No.

SYLVIE: Because for me, again, this is another command from my master. I honestly did everything that I was told to do. From what I remember, like I didn't ever consider that anything was optional, so my master told me to do something, I did it.

SYLVIE: I did.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I don't remember whether she was on one of my lists but she might have been but Monica told me to approach Sam -- Samantha, sorry, and so I did approach Samantha.

SYLVIE: I used pretty much the same kind of, I'd say script that Monica did with me, I said it was a special project that would help her become stronger or something -- I used I think that word in her life and that I could tell her what it was but only if she gave me collateral.

SYLVIE: Yeah, with Samantha Monica told me that I could, once she had given me the collateral and it had been approved by Monica, then I could ask -- I could tell Sam what the project was and she could say yes or no, whether she wanted to join it. Like she wasn't -- she wasn't obligated to join it when she knew about it but she just couldn't say anything about it or we'd release the collateral.

SYLVIE: So, we went through the process of collateral and it was very similar, that the first sort of thing she gave I gave to Monica waiting for Monica to approve it and Monica would say it's not strong enough and then she would tell me what I should say to Sam -- Samantha to help her develop her collateral. Then in the end she submitted I would say almost exactly the same thing as me, it was a letter to her family talking about herself as some kind of a prostitute with a picture that we put in an envelope addressed to her family and then that was the collateral that was approved and given to Monica to keep.

SYLVIE: No, not then.

SYLVIE: I was told not to.

SYLVIE: Monica Duran, my master.

SYLVIE: I did, later on I recruited someone called Regina.

SYLVIE: Regina was in Guatemala so I spoke to her over the phone because she didn't live in Albany and she was a leader in SOP but as a woman in the men's organization and so I thought -- I didn't know her that well but I thought maybe this would appeal to her in some way or something, that's how I decided to contact her. And I did the same thing, I spoke to her and said there's a special project, I can, you know, I can tell you about it if you give me collateral and we went through the same process but this -- she gave me some collateral that was very upset -- like very emotional to her when she told me about it but it wasn't anything like what me and Samantha had submitted, it was much more personal and not that ours wasn't but it wasn't sexual let's say but it was upsetting to her and it seemed to me so much. So, I asked Monica Duran if we could keep that as the collateral but she said, no, we needed like a naked picture or something so we had to get the naked photo from Regina.

SYLVIE: Yeah. First of all, she sent one that apparently wasn't full frontal enough or what Monica said, so I had to ask her to send me another one that showed her entire front.

SYLVIE: I thought it was disgusting because, for one, I thought what Regina had shared before was obviously so emotional and painful for her that I was embarrassed to approach her and ask for more and definitely for a naked photo and I didn't know her anywhere near as well as Sam and the whole thing was awkward and horrible.

SYLVIE: I did have to tell them that but I don't remember if it was in the initial meeting but I definitely told Sam about it and I think I told Regina about it too but I really more remember it with Samantha -- sorry, I said Sam but Samantha.

SYLVIE: Because she got really upset and was crying and, yeah, I couldn't really comfort her in that and so that one -- that really stuck out to me.

SYLVIE: No, I never assigned them to seduce Keith or anything like that.

SYLVIE: Yeah, Monica Duran told me that I would be contacted by another slave that was not her slave that would be arranging my branding.

SYLVIE: I got contacted by Michelle, she set up a private -- secret chat with me in Telegram and started to arrange -- tried to arrange the branding with me.

SYLVIE: I had a suspicion that she might be in DOS, I thought maybe she was a slave of Allison Mack just because I had seen her spend a lot of time around Allison and also she had been acting in ways that I thought was unusual but seemed similar to things I'd seen say in -- or experienced myself and so I had a suspicion that she was in DOS but that wasn't -- we weren't allowed to talk about it so I didn't know for sure and so that was how I knew for sure that she was because she contacted me.

SYLVIE: At one point Allison made a comment like if you ever have any problems with Michelle, just tell me and because I was Michelle's coach, I think that's why she said that to me, I was Michelle's coach in ESP which is a different organization. So, I think that's why she said that to me but I remember thinking like, ooh, that's weird, like it didn't sound right to me, it didn't feel right.

SYLVIE: Yeah, one night we'd had a Jness meeting I think it was and we were coming out of Flintlock because we had a meeting with Pam and Marianna or maybe even just have been Marianna at that point. Any rate, we were coming out of Flintlock and he approached Michelle and they were kind of whispering and he kissed her on the lips and it just looked to me -- that was another indication to me that I thought, oh, I felt like maybe she's in this too.

SYLVIE: First of all, she wanted to arrange an in-person meeting to talk to me about it more and so she came -- we arranged that and she came over to my house and she talked to me a lot more about her experience as a slave and what it -- what she was experiencing which was a bit different to me and so I was actually -- some of the things that she was doing with the other slaves in -- the people that were the slaves like she was of one specific master, she didn't mention names, but they sounded like quite good experiences to her, like for her it sounded like she felt bonded with these women and she described how the branding was a very like bond -- difficult but bonding experience for her and meaningful for her in a certain way and so I started feeling like, oh, wow, maybe this is going to be a good thing, the branding, but I also just think that is how I would frame things to try to make them more tolerable and so she was explaining it to me like that that and it was kind of putting me a bit at ease about it.

SYLVIE: I don't remember that, no.

SYLVIE: No. So, we didn't arrange anything and she told me who was going to do the branding.

SYLVIE: Danielle.

SYLVIE: We didn't arrange a time, she said that she was going to speak to her master and we were -- because at the same time she was also arranging Samantha's branding because apparently it needed to happen that I would be branded first and then Samantha had to be branded separately was what I was told and so she was, it seemed, in charge of arranging both of our brandings but then we were going back and forth in message quite a lot and I felt like she was trying to put a lot of pressure on me to get branded on a Friday night and the next morning was the Freihofer race that I was supposed to be racing in. So, I was saying like, no, I don't want to have it done then because I'm racing the next day and I just -- I don't want to do that. So, I kept going back to Monica being like -- saying she's putting pressure on me, it seems like she keeps mentioning how her master is asking her to arrange this and she needs to do this for her master and blah, blah, blah and Monica told me to sort of like ignore them and ignore her and her master and so I did.

SYLVIE: No. That weekend I think was also the coach summit and I think that's the weekend that Sarah Edmondson -- oh, sorry, I think I meant to say Sarah, I was, I'm sorry.

SYLVIE: That Sarah and Mark left the organization and so -- and Monica said that people were getting scared and that things were happening behind the scenes and not to -- like the branding wasn't going to happen right now and to just sort of keep quiet about everything.

SYLVIE: I think around that time or even that weekend -- well, Mark and Sarah resigned and then also I think it was in the exact same time the blog started called the Frank Report and all this information started coming out where I first learned this organization was referred to as DOS, so that a lot of stories started being written.

SYLVIE: I got really freaked out because there was stuff in there that I had never heard about before. And specifically, the thing that scared me even more is there was a story about women being beaten with paddles or something like that. There was a mentioning of like being hit with a paddle from what I remember and that really freaked me out. So I asked to speak to Monica and I was really scared and upset, and I went over to her house and I was, like, crying and being like I want to know is this true. I was hoping that she was going to say it wasn't and she said -- I think she was trying to comfort me, but she was, like, well, it is true but they wanted to have it fit in with their indoctrination, I remember her using that phrase, and I was just like distraught basically. And she said things that I'm scared too, just don't worry. Like she was trying to comfort me but I was freaked out.

SYLVIE: I think that was, it was 2017 and it was around the Freihofer and that is always around the end of May beginning of June, so it would have been around that time.

SYLVIE: Yes, things sort of started to, like, I think something that had charged is that Monica had said that I should now just say M in the chat rather than master. Like little things started changing. And I felt like -- I didn't get any more assignments. Like, I wasn't asked to recruit anybody else so things sort of slowed down.

SYLVIE: Can I just say one other thing, sorry.

SYLVIE: The other thing that stopped I don't remember getting any readiness drills anymore, those stopped happening as well.

SYLVIE: Yeah, well, not openly but there was conversations about it and people reading the Frank report and I had quite a few conversations with John about it, but obviously him not knowing that I'm in DOS, and so we would talk about it. When I would try and allude to, well, I think it might be true and like these kinds of things, he didn't believe it. And a lot of people didn't believe it or they kind of thought the women that were coming out were lying and like were -- because that was the kind of thing we had been taught, that women they lie and they are out for themselves, and all this kind of stuff. So a lot of people were kind of questioning it, the people that were still loyal to ESP.

SYLVIE: Yeah.

SYLVIE: Not that I remember, no.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I'd say later on from that point, I'm not sure how much further into the summer it was but I was walking around Knox Woods and so was he and we, like, I guess you'd say bumped into each other or something walking around Knox Woods. And he said to me, you know, you can sort of play a movie with like comedic music and people would see it as a comedy, or you can play it with horror music and they'll see it as a horror film. I was sort of like, okay, like I felt like he was alluding to what was going on with DOS. And I don't remember what prompted me to say this to him but I remember he was looking me in the eyes, I said something like, no, don't worry, I know you're a good person, or something. I just wanted to get him away from me and like appease him in some way, so I said something like that to him.

SYLVIE: No, I know at some point he left. I think it was towards the end of that year, maybe November, I'm not sure exactly when. I just knew that he had left the area.

SYLVIE: No.

SYLVIE: People started spending a lot of time away. So the people I remember were like Nicky Clyne and Allison Mack. Clare Bronfman was traveling a lot more. Like people just seemed to be away lot and actually Monica left around that time too, she went back home to Mexico, to her family home I mean.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: I'm not sure when the New York Times article originally came out actually, but -- yeah, I don't know exactly the date of that, I'm sorry.

SYLVIE: Yes. A statement went up on the website, yeah, 'cause that was another -- a statement went out on the website and there was a community meeting too.

SYLVIE: On the website it said something -- I don't remember -- I didn't read the entire thing because at some point he stated that he had no association to the group and I remember that just -- I just thought that was like cowardly honestly because it was a lie.

SYLVIE: Yeah, that's the letter or statement.

SYLVIE: It says, "Additionally, I feel it is important to clarify the sorority is not part of Nxivm and that I am not associated with the group."

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I think it was around March that year me and John started having conversations about moving back to England and I also -- yeah, I got my green card through actually at that time and so that meant I could leave the country and I wanted to get away from the community and so we agreed that we would move back to England.

SYLVIE: Yeah, around that time or it might have been a bit later, Monica was no longer in Albany, and it was clear she wasn't coming back. She actually was moving out of her house and we were arranging for her dog to get sent back to her, but her cousin was going to pick it up, so she basically she wasn't coming back. I asked her where our collateral was and whether Keith had any of it on his phones or computers. Because I think by that point he'd been arrested as well and I wanted to know what happened to all of our collateral. And she said -- she was trying -- again, I felt like she was trying to comfort me. She said, Oh, don't worry, it's all in a safe somewhere and don't worry, like, if it was on Keith's phone he got rid of it anyway so no one has it.

SYLVIE: Monica Duran.

SYLVIE: Not long after that -- so we were in the process of, like, selling everything inside our house and packing up our house. And then during that time actually my family came over because my sister gave birth to my nephew, so it was a lot going on at once and my family was there, but anyway that's not really relevant, sorry. I don't really know why I told you that, but that did happen then. But during the time while my family was there the FBI knocked on my door and I was not there so John answered.

SYLVIE: I did. I think I got a subpoena in the end and then we arranged the meeting for me to come and speak to the government.

SYLVIE: We recently signed an immunity letter.

SYLVIE: Definitely not, no.

SYLVIE: Is that anything that I have said in testimony or in interviews and in the grand jury you can't use it against me to charge me at this point, but anything new that came out or anything that I said that was untrue or anything like that you could.

SYLVIE: Yes, we went to England right after we finished the meetings in the beginning of June.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: Definitely. I think I'm still trying to like recover my brain from the experience because it was so many years for me from when I was 18 of being in a really specific way of thinking, which I personally think led me to be ashamed of who I was as a person and to always feel like there is something wrong with me or I'm bad in some way and I just can't quite get myself to be a good person somehow. So I just felt flawed all the time. And it's very challenging to try and overcome those thoughts now. So I'm trying to overcome that and be okay with who I am and that's difficult honestly.

SYLVIE: Yeah, I think the Jness training specifically and I felt like this even at the time I didn't enjoy going to the debriefs or dispositions they were called, because I really felt like I started to hate the fact that I was a woman and being a woman and other women I saw as flawed too because we were taught -- I felt like we were taught that women are self-absorbed, like narcissistic, we objectify men, we lived in a bubble, that we knew nothing about reality. So it just felt like everything about being a woman was not good and the problem was that I was a woman in a lot of ways and that I needed to like somehow stamp that out of me, and so I feel like in some ways that was the worse part of it for me.

SYLVIE: Well, yeah, definitely. I think it was hard for me even to -- I can't -- it's hard for me to see myself as a victim to be honest because I said that statement so many times over and over and over again. And I do -- I do believe that people can be victims of horrible things that happen in the world but at the same I've been drumming this statement into myself through reciting this thing over and over again and I think it's been very hard to just come to terms with anything that's happened because of that.

SYLVIE: Well, for women and I think this was -- well, it was part of Jness. We were kind of taught to believe that women cried victim whenever they could to get off the hook from things because they didn't want to be responsible or -- yeah, just so that they didn't have to face the consequences of their actions or something like that. Like women they want to be seen as victims when really they are the victimizers.

SYLVIE: Yeah.

SYLVIE: It is a CD that I watched of the Jness disposition and I signed it to show that I watched it.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: It was 2017, I think it was April 2017.

SYLVIE: Well, the way that worked was that you were in a friendship and you had to meet with your friendship weekly to discuss -- there was four questions the entire month, and you would discuss one question each week leading up to the end of the month, then there would be a group meeting of all the women in that area and Nancy Salzman would read the disposition to us.

SYLVIE: At Apropos in the Jness room most typically. Occasionally they happened at Nancy Salzman's house.

SYLVIE: You basically just sit and listen to Nancy read along, yeah, like that sometimes over an hour of statement or like teaching or whatever. I'm not sure what you'd call it.

SYLVIE: I understood them to come from Keith Raniere because, again, she would mention that she had a download from Keith just that morning or that she had an extra download and added that to the disposition or whatever. And I knew that she needed help transcribing at different times because at one point she asked if I was good at transcribing for this purpose, I said no because I don't want to do it. I believe Samantha did the transcribing for her for these dispositions.

TERI CARBY: It's up on our screen.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: Okay, thank you.

SYLVIE: Starting you said from left to right?

SYLVIE: Yeah, I think these were girls from Mexico, these ones. They were teenage girls. I'm not sure what their actual names are. Oh, my screen just went -- this is Nancy Salzman with the cup. Karen Unterreiner is next to her. Dawn --

SYLVIE: Sorry. Sorry.

SYLVIE: Then this is Dawn Morrison. Chelsea, Rosie, Rose, me, and I believe this is Janie Jeffries.

SYLVIE: Yeah, this is Clare Bronfman and this is Samantha.

SYLVIE: I think there are people who weren't in Albany that were allowed to dial-in to listen to the disposition.

SYLVIE: I believe her name is Cynthia.

SYLVIE: I believe that is the youngest sister -- or a younger sister of Samantha.

SYLVIE: I think she's a teenager but honestly I don't know the specific age of her.

SYLVIE: That's Moira Mills.

SYLVIE: Delores Wilson was a -- she was a proctor in the community. At some point she was my coach. I mentioned her earlier as well in my testimony.

SYLVIE: Yeah.

SYLVIE: Yeah.

SYLVIE: Yes.

SYLVIE: Yes, that's how I understood it. I believe he gave her a verbal download that she would listen and she would transcribe. That's what I assumed from her comment about needing people to help transcribe.

SYLVIE: Yeah, definitely.

SYLVIE: That anything that happened to you is kind of your own fault and if you call it abuse, then you're just trying to get out of the responsibility of the fact that it was your fault somehow.

SYLVIE: Women.

SYLVIE: Yes, definitely. I kind of feel like the kind of the whole Jness training seemed centered around concepts like this, that women are kind of yelling abuse and wanting to be victims.

SYLVIE: Yeah, definitely. I was overly paranoid that, like, I could accidentally do that or, like, am I thinking I'm the victim when I'm not and different things like that. I just felt like I couldn't trust myself in what I thought was going on and what was right and wrong.

SYLVIE: We'd always say, like, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Like and now when I watch it it's so weird to me because a lot of the time it doesn't make any sense but we all just would agree. Like, it was so rare that someone would disagree with anything, so rare.

SYLVIE: Yeah, well, I think you can hear in the room we were all, like, wow, that's weird about the comment about the age of consent being 12 in some places because I'd never heard of that before, but maybe it is, I don't know, I didn't research it any more, but yeah.

SYLVIE: Yeah, it's the transcript I think of what we just watched.

SYLVIE: Yeah, that's my initial.

SYLVIE: Yeah.

SYLVIE: Yeah. They were normally about an hour, sometimes a bit more.

SYLVIE: I don't know what their names are, but I think they were teenage girls that came from Mexico and they were having some kind of training. I'm not really sure what it was.

SYLVIE: I don't, but I think they used to go to Rosa Laura Junco's basement, like she had some kind of classroom there, and I think they had a teaching there, but honestly I'm not really sure.

SYLVIE: That is Charmel.

SYLVIE: This is Siobahn Hotaling.

SYLVIE: This is -- this person here is Vanessa Sahgun, and I think this again is the teenage girls from Mexico, I think.

SYLVIE: Yeah. I think this is -- well, this is Lucy.

SYLVIE: She's related to Samantha and -- I believe her name is Cynthia.

SYLVIE: This is Sahjun.

SYLVIE: Salzman.

SYLVIE: Nancy Salzman. It's her daughter.

SYLVIE: And Lauren Salzman. It's Lauren Salzman's younger sister.

SYLVIE: I believe that that is Kathy Russell.

SYLVIE: I think it had been so many years of me in this feeling pretty crap about myself, to be honest, and just always thinking that the next ESP thing was going to fix me somehow, and this was just another thing that was presented within a context of people that I had come to trust and thought cared about me and had my best interests at heart, and so I really thought when Monica came to me and said she had this special project, that this was something that was maybe finally going to be the thing that made me feel good about myself, so I had no reason to think otherwise.

SYLVIE: No.