2.Nicole — Direct/Cross (Part 3)
623 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Good morning, Nicole.
MS. PENZA: Nicole, while you were in DOS, did Allison Mack have any nicknames?
MS. PENZA: And while you were -- while you were in DOS, were you familiar with a girls' school?
NICOLE: Yeah -- yes. When I -- I did a Jness weekend one -- once, and I met some of the young girls who had come in from Mexico to go to -- go to school, like in the community, like Rosa Laura had set it up. I think they were staying with Rosa Laura, but there were like four or five girls in the Jness training that were, like, between 15 and 17 that had come in from Mexico.
MS. PENZA: And did you meet some of them?
MS. PENZA: Do you remember the first name of any of the girls?
NICOLE: The little one that sat next to me, her name was Cece, which I believe is short for Cecilia.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may I have the ELMO just for the witness, please -- or actually, Your Honor, may I approach the witness quickly?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I am showing you what's marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 667.
Can you just look through that for a second?
MS. PENZA: Are you familiar with this document?
MS. PENZA: Can you just explain very generally what it is?
MS. PENZA: Is this --
MS. PENZA: This is the contract that you described on direct being asked to sign?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 667 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 667 is received in evidence.
(Government's Exhibit 667 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Nicole, I am showing you what's in evidence as Government's Exhibit 667.
Is this the series of contracts that you were asked to sign by Allison Mack?
MS. PENZA: And can you -- can you remind us approximately when you were asked to sign these?
NICOLE: It would have been around March or April of 2017 because it was right when Allison was going to do the play.
MS. PENZA: And you didn't end up signing them?
NICOLE: No, just by like a very, very lucky something, it like slipped through the cracks of -- we were supposed to sign it as our collateral for that month, but Allison had to leave and so there was just, like, something happened that we didn't end up signing it, which I was, like, eternally grateful for.
MS. PENZA: And just right on this very first page, the part that is in bold, do you remember reading this part that was in bold when you were provided this contract?
MS. PENZA: And I am going to read it out loud:
I am voluntarily participating in the aforementioned activity and I am participating in the activity entirely at my own risk. I am aware of the risks associated with traveling to and from, as well as participating in this activity, which may include, but are not limited to, physical or psychological injury, pain, suffering, illness, disfigurement, temporary or permanent disability including paralysis, economic or emotional loss and death. I understand that these injuries or outcomes may arise from my own or others' negligence, conditions related to travel, or the condition of the activity locations. Nonetheless, I assume all related risks, both known or unknown to me, of my participation in this activity.
And were you concerned when you read that?
MS. PENZA: When you joined DOS, did you believe there to be any physical or psychological or emotional risks to you?
MS. PENZA: I am just going to go through a couple other pages.
The third page --
THE COURT: Just read slowly.
MS. PENZA: Yes, Your Honor. Sorry.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Looking at the third page of Government Exhibit 667, there was also a Publishing Agreement, is that right?
(Exhibit published.)
MS. PENZA: And it says -- and this was about publishing formal or informal work that you had provided?
MS. PENZA: And there was a Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement as well?
(Exhibit published.)
MS. PENZA: And an Assignment and Transfer Agreement related to property, is that right?
MS. PENZA: So turning back to after you did leave DOS, did there come a point in time where you ever requested your collateral back?
MS. PENZA: How did that happen?
NICOLE: So, right after I left I was just, like, obviously trying to trust that Allison said she wouldn't release it, but that was hard to do.
So I was also just trusting that, like, the company was, you know, imploding from the inside out, so they didn't really have -- if they released my collateral, it would just, like, at that -- at that point, like, I felt that they couldn't really do that and it would be a lot easier for me to, like, explain what happened and go to authorities.
But, like, I was still scared, so I was trying to just stay away from everything. Like, I didn't speak to anyone. I really didn't speak to anyone really in the community afterward. I tried to stay away from everything and just get -- start to, like, put my life back together. And I was with one of my best friends and, you know, like, I like very, very slowly started to talk about things. But, again, I was like scared. She said that I should ask for my collateral back and so, we, like, called -- I had been thinking about maybe getting a lawyer to help me with that, but we just called one of her friends who's a lawyer and asked what the proper thing to say was above the e-mail. And then I sent Allison an e-mail just asking if I could physically have it back. And that was end of September/October, so I had been out for, like, four months by that point.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor -- oh, I'm sorry.
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: I am going to show you what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 664.
(Exhibit published.)
MS. PENZA: And is Government Exhibit 664, the bottom of this e-mail, is this the e-mail that you wrote to Allison?
MS. PENZA: And you write:
Hey, Allison, I haven't heard back from the last two e-mails I have sent you. I was disappointed not to hear back from you about the deposit money, but India helped me to get the last EM payment to Dani, so I have settled that.
Can you just explain what that was about?
NICOLE: Yes. So I think I mentioned in direct that Keith had said, like, from that point on that he wanted to do -- or, like, that it was better for him to do an exchange with Dani for the EMs versus paying money for them. And so -- but I was not comfortable with that. I didn't want -- I just -- I wasn't comfortable with that. I didn't want Dani to think that I was, like, getting some kind of special treatment.
I didn't want repercussions with that, so I had gotten just one more EM from Dani before I left, and I just paid for it with my own money. I sent it to India and had India give it to Dani so that -- I didn't want to owe anyone anything. I wanted to make sure that I left with clean...
MS. PENZA: And so, you write that you've had time to reflect on the situation:
I'm in a very good place and want to move forward with my life. I wanted to reach out concerning my collateral. I would like you to securely send me all my initial and all my hard copy collateral you have back to me immediately, the letters about my family, as well as my original video. I would like to peacefully and quietly remove myself from everything. I do not want any drama. I have no intention of talking about things to anyone positively or negatively. I don't have any intention of talking about anything associated with ESP or Albany, I just want to tie up my loose ends and move on with the things I care about.
Nicole, did you ever -- did you ever speak to the media about what happened?
MS. PENZA: As you know, my family is the most important thing to me, so I want to know that I safely have those letters back in my possession. I don't want to worry about my collateral being exposed and I absolutely have that right.
I would like you to destroy and delete any and all photos and Dropbox collateral you received over that year. I hope that you respect this and if you were my friend at all and the person I thought you were, I hope this is something that you will do for me without hesitation.
Again, I do not want any drama. I simply want to completely remove myself from the situation and any association, and I want to protect myself and my family.
Please get back to me on this when you can or I will be forced to take a different course of action if I don't hear from you in the near future.
What did you mean by the last sentence there?
MS. PENZA: And you titled this e-mail Without Prejudice?
MS. PENZA: And then --
MS. PENZA: And I know you are not on this top part of the e-mail, but Allison then forwarded that e-mail to Clare Bronfman, and are you familiar with John?
MS. PENZA: And so you sent this e-mail on October 20th to -- October 20th, 2017, and then she forwarded it to Clare Bronfman and the defendant on October 20th, 2017?
MS. PENZA: You hadn't seen that before today?
MS. PENZA: Nicole, can you just tell us what you've been doing since you left DOS?
NICOLE: Yes. I -- so right after I went back to work where I was working, but then I got a really cool job opportunity that came up and I started a new job working for this incredible woman who is a -- a functional medicine doctor. She's a nutritionist and a cognital [sic] behavioral therapist and she works in the City. And she's amazing, and she is like -- she built her own company, so it's actually very cool to -- to learn from her.
It's not acting, but, you know, in acting you also -- I just was really excited to learn more about, like, nutrition and cognital [sic] behavioral therapy is very interesting to me.
So I have been working for her for a little over a year now, like 14 months. And I also applied to go back to school.
MS. PENZA: And have you been in school?
MS. PENZA: And what are -- are you in school in the City?
MS. PENZA: And how has this last year compared to the time you were in DOS?
NICOLE: I mean, there's no comparison. It's just I feel like I'm actually living my own life and moving towards my future and building the things that I wanted to build. I said to my brother -- and I felt like this was very important -- where it's like once I had gotten enough separation from -- from this situation and, like, started to kind of, like, put my head back on straight, like there has not been one moment, one, like, single second that I am not grateful that, like, I am not in that situation anymore and that I can make my life into what I want my life to be; which still includes being a strong woman and, like, being full of integrity and, like, doing this and ideally having a positive impact on the world and the future.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
MS. PENZA: No further questions.
THE COURT: Cross-examination.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Nicole.
MR. AGNIFILO: My name is Mark Agnifilo. I represent Keith Raniere. I am going to ask you some questions this morning.
MR. AGNIFILO: If I ask you a question that you don't understand, or you want me to rephrase it, just ask me to do that and I'm happy to do that. Okay?
MR. AGNIFILO: Going back to, I think, the beginning of your testimony on direct examination, you said that Mark Hildreth introduced you to The Source?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember exactly how did he do that; was that a conversation that you two of you had?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember, generally, where you were when you had the conversation?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just tell the jury basically what Hildreth said about The Source?
NICOLE: That it was an acting program that was a mix between psychology and acting, and that they had been developing it for a while. That, like, a bunch of actors up in Albany had been helping develop it and that it was a five-week program, that -- I don't know, that was the general gist of it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And Hildreth was a working actor at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you viewed him as successful as an actor?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you trust his insights at that time?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And -- and did you speak to anybody else in addition to Hildreth about The Source prior to your taking The Source?
NICOLE: I don't think so. Once I was signed up, Allison called to say, like, hi, and she was looking forward to me coming to The Source, but I believe I just talked to Mark. I didn't know anyone else personally that was involved.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And I think you said at the time Allison was also a working actress, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you viewed her as being somewhat successful?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And was it interesting to you, kind of the premise of The Source, sort of this mixture of psychology and acting?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And why was that interesting to you?
NICOLE: Because, as an actor, you have to understand the character's psychology -- or, if you want to be a good actor, you have to understand the character's psychology to know how to portray them and bring their life to life. If you don't understand how people's minds work, you -- it makes acting a bit hard.
MR. AGNIFILO: Understood.
And before being exposed to The Source, had you ever taken acting classes?
MR. AGNIFILO: And just give us very briefly -- you don't have to go into each one, but just give us a general idea of sort of what type of acting classes you took and when in your life you took them?
NICOLE: Sure. Oh, my goodness. So I've taken a lot of different acting classes, but my -- my favorite teacher taught Stella Adler, which she works a lot with imagination and, like, back story and really -- she -- like, really caring about the writer. So you take, like, the writer's words and you bring them to life. Like, she's very much like you need to know playwrights, you need to know all these different things.
But every acting class is different. I mean, you could take an acting class on commercials or you could take an acting class just for film and television because there's different, like, idiosyncrasies that you use for film and television than theater. And every acting teacher kind of has their, like, outlook. So I sort of learned that you take what you -- what you want from each class and then you, like, leave what you don't want because no one kind of knows everything, like, and you are the actor so you make it into -- into your own.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you take acting classes throughout your childhood and then teenage years?
MR. AGNIFILO: And consistently during that whole period of time?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said on direct examination you started acting when you were about four?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you did something with Charlie Brown?
MR. AGNIFILO: Oh, when you were nine. Okay.
And you played Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz?
MR. AGNIFILO: And how old were you then?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you played Cinderella in Cinderella?
MR. AGNIFILO: You know what, it would be easier if you would say yes or no, she will have an easier time writing it down.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right. And how old were you for that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And in all the acting classes that you had taken, had you ever taken any that focused on this connection between psychology and acting the way The Source did?
NICOLE: Well, the closest thing would have been my other teacher that I -- where I met Mark, because she was really big on understanding the psychology of the character. But the way that it was presented in this class where it was like psychology, not only of the character, but also kind of an aspect of like working on your own psychology, that was interesting to me. And that was, like, a little -- a little bit different than the other acting class.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So was one of the tie-ins when Mark -- you said you had met Mark in an acting class?
THE COURT: You have to answer yes or no.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall about how old you were when you met Mark -- and this is Mark Hildreth, in the acting class?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And do you remember where you were living at the time, like what city?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said that there was sort of a psychological tie-in to the acting class that you took with Mark Hildreth when you were twenty-five?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And so when Mark Hildreth bought it up to you again -- when he brought up The Source to you --
MR. AGNIFILO: -- did he reference back to that other class and say, This is like a continuation of the other class we did together, or something along those lines?
NICOLE: I don't know if it was in that conversation, but later on he said that it -- that The Source, like, builds on what -- what we had worked on with that acting teacher.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you recall where the -- so when you started The Source classes, it was five days?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, five weeks, okay.
And where was that , that was in Albany?
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point, did you take a series of courses at Mark Vicente's house?
MR. AGNIFILO: No? Have you ever been to Mark Vicente's house?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just give me one second.
(Pause.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember speaking to the FBI on November 9th, 2017, I think it was the first time you might have spoken to them?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: I am just going to show, just the witness for the sake of her recollection, this is 3500-N.
I am just going to let the Government find it.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: In the meantime, Judge, I am just going to show it to the witness and the parties.
This is 3500-N4 -- N1.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what I am going to ask you to do, Nicole, just for a second, I am going to direct your attention to something. I just want you to read it to yourself. Don't read it out loud, okay?
And what I'm directing you to is that little paragraph right there (indicating.) Just read it to yourself.
MR. AGNIFILO: Does that refresh your recollection?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, what's your recollection now?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right.
NICOLE: When I did the first five-day in Los Angeles that I -- what I was told was that Mark Vicente had rented the house, like was renting the house that it was held in, but I -- I don't think he lived there. I think it was just a house rented for -- for that five-day, but yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember if you met him, Mark Vicente, at that general time period?
NICOLE: Yeah. I -- Mark Hildreth and I ran into him at -- in like a charity event that we went to and I met him.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, I'm going -- I'm going to refer you, this is an e-mail that's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 651. And I think this is already in evidence. I've highlighted certain portions.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, this is an e-mail from you to Allison Mack on February 10th, 2016.
Do you see that there?
MR. AGNIFILO: You can read it on your -- can you see it okay? I can make it a little bigger.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, great. Thanks.
So at this point, in February of 2016, how long had you known Allison Mack?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what was the nature of your relationship over that period of time? I mean, how did it develop? How would you characterize it as sort of you -- you know, over that ten months?
NICOLE: First, it started out just she was my teacher for The Source, and then she sometimes taught the ongoing classes when I continued taking those. And then she sort of took on a bit of a, like, Source mentorship, like sort of took me over her wing because I was interested in -- we have this similar work ethic, but she sort of was mentoring me a little bit.
MR. AGNIFILO: And she is a hard worker?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're a hard worker?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So when you say you have a similar work ethic, I mean in addition to --
NICOLE: We both -- from what I understood from her, like we both very much cared about being good at -- good actresses.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. You wanted to be not just an actress, you wanted to be a good actress, an effective actress, someone who really could kind of get into the character on a deep level, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And the actresses you admired were actresses who really could kind of get into characters at a deep level, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so, just working backwards, do you recall when your Source class was in Albany, ballpark?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, and you said Allison taught it. Did she teach all of the classes, is that how it works?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And give us sort of a feeling for what the class is like; you know, how many hours a day, what does the coursework consist of when you're in the class?
NICOLE: Sure. I think I said on my direct, like, I thought it would be all day, but it ended up just being, like, the second half of the day. So I had the morning to, like, do homework or do the work from the night before or go for a run.
So it would be like four hours, we would watch a video, and then do some exercises or, like, some kind of exploration after that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And we are going to come back to this, I can take it off, we can just talk for a minute.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how many other students were in the class when you took it with Allison about?
MR. AGNIFILO: But like five, ten, twenty?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you said there was homework associated with the courses?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you and Allison sort of start to get close as a result of you taking the course with her as your teacher?
NICOLE: Not necessarily the first time, but when I decided to take an ongoing, like we -- yeah, we started to get a little closer.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just tell us how did your relationship develop? I mean, you know, she was your teacher first, you're her student; how does it progress from there?
NICOLE: Well, I think The Source was -- was like supposed to be created with, like, by actors, for actors. So her being my teacher wasn't so much like her being my teacher, like Mark was working on teaching as well, Mark Hildreth, and they're like my -- they're a few years older than me, but I looked at them as like comrades or, you know, equals. So we would talk about acting.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But in addition to talking about acting, how much time were you spending with Allison, you know, say through the summer of 2015 into the fall of 2015 after you took the course?
NICOLE: Not a lot. We would e-mail, but it was pretty much just if she was teaching an ongoing class, which is once a week or twice a week sometimes, then she might be on that, but she didn't always teach those, and then at V Week we ended up staying together.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So this is V Week 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: And just give us an idea, at V Week, were there like performances and different presentations at V Week, is that right?
NICOLE: Yeah. They had some like drummers come in and they had -- Mark and Allison were in a single group and they -- they sang. There was like a lot of different things going on at V Week.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you in any performances yourself?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you in any performances in any V Week?
MR. AGNIFILO: In 2016?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is it fun? Is V Week fun?
NICOLE: Yeah, I mean, yeah -- for me. It's by a lake and I always like being out in nature. So, I enjoyed that part.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you got to meet other people, right? You got to meet -- you got to know Allison a little bit better; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And who would you say your better friends were kind of in, you know, NXIVM ESP now going into the fall of 2015?
MR. AGNIFILO: And where did you meet Emiliano?
NICOLE: I met him, like, super briefly at Claire's house. I don't know, they were having some kind of a lunch thing there and when I actually got to know him was at V Week 2015. Mark introduced us.
MR. AGNIFILO: Mark Hildreth?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you guys became friendly, you and Emiliano?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that friendship extended throughout your period of time through NXIVM and DOS and all of that; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You never told Emiliano that you were in DOS?
MR. AGNIFILO: My question is --
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay. So not until you left did you tell Emiliano you were in DOS; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you still in touch with him or no?
MR. AGNIFILO: So I want to fast forward to this e-mail which is already in evidence as Government Exhibit 651.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So at this point I think you explained on direct examination you were making journal entries pretty much every day; is that fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: And your journal entries are broken into two parts; there's a source journal and then a personal journal; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And The Source journals -- I want to go through The Source journals at this point which is the top part and you covered some of this on direct. It says, "Class was okay today. For a while it was only Britta."
Was that a student?
MR. AGNIFILO: "It was great to catch up with her, but it didn't really feel like class. I felt a bit ashamed that only one person was there, making it mean more than it necessarily does, maybe I'm not a good teacher." Now why are you writing here you feel you weren't a good teacher?
MR. AGNIFILO: So what exactly are you teaching here?
NICOLE: It would be more, like, you're just holding, like -- you're kind of running an exercise, or, like, a student would bring something that they wanted to work on to class and, so, at this point these classes are very catered to, like, who shows up and what they want to work on. But I was -- I liked doing a, kind of a little bit of a meditation to start, like get everyone in their body and then work on whatever they wanted to work on. It was -- it kind of depends on that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now were these classes held in Albany?
NICOLE: No. If I was up in Albany sometimes I would, like, hold them in person, but Britta lives in Germany, which I thought was kind of cool, but, like, we would do it over Zoom.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And then you want to say -- I'm looking down on the fourth line, "We went into a slider on fear." Do you see there?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's a slider?
NICOLE: So, the way that worked was, like, you feel certain emotions in your body, right? Like, before I came up here, you feel fear in your body and you just kind of, like, know -- you would know, like, where the fear is in your body and be, like, huh, that's interesting. And then, like, what -- let me think of the best way to explain this. You would just feel the different -- like, can you intensify it, can you lessen it can you move it around.
It was just an understanding of how fear felt in your body and what -- because fear is different to every person what kind of, like, comes up in your -- in your mind when you feel fear. And then you would sort of ask the student like what came up for you when you feel fear and then if you kind of, like, examine fear a little further, or, like add joy to it, can it become excitement. It was sort of, like, broadening your understanding of your emotions was how I understood it.
MR. AGNIFILO: And here you are saying -- you went into a slider on fear and then you say, "And then Dolores and Jocelyn jumped on." Are those two other students?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you say, "I'm getting more comfortable at sliders." So you're reporting this back to Allison; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then there's a personal journal part. We covered this on direct examination. You say here, "Tonight was brutal. I haven't felt this low in a very long time."
Is part of -- is part of what you're working through with Allison here -- there's the part that is related to The Source and then there's the part just related to what is going on inside of you; correct? And that's the personal part; is that fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah. So what you're saying is, in your personal journal, you're talking about how you feel, right? You're being honest with Allison about how you feel, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so what you say here is you -- you were scared about certain things that you were feeling; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then -- and we're going down here. It says, "Matthew said I was having an ego collapse."
MR. AGNIFILO: Who was Matthew?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you write, "I think he might be right. I have no identity to hold on to at the moment. I don't know who I am or what I want." What's -- when you say -- you wrote it very clearly so maybe it's a silly question --
MR. AGNIFILO: Give me one second, Judge.
(Pause in proceedings.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And we're talking about -- I'm not going to ask you any particular place of where you've lived, okay? So if I ask you something -- I'm not asking you where -- specifically where you have lived?
MR. AGNIFILO: You say, "I no longer have what defined me in," two places where you have lived.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's blacked out. So you're struggling. Tell me if this is right I don't want to dwell on it. You're struggling with your sense of identity. You're saying I have no identity at the moment, right? That's what you're saying to Allison?
NICOLE: Yes. I think when you just move somewhere new and I had given up everything in Los Angeles, like, part of my brain knew that it just, like, takes time because it had taken me time to build my life in L.A. as does anywhere when you first move somewhere new, but I was, yeah -- I was working and I wasn't auditioning that much or I wasn't really auditioning at all at that point and I just felt like I don't know -- how to quite move forward.
MR. AGNIFILO: A little bit further down you express concern, "Have I F'd it all up already?" What are you writing about there?
NICOLE: Have I screwed up my career, was it the wrong move to move to New York City like I was so --
MR. AGNIFILO: Another e-mail that's in evidence Exhibit 657. It's a four-page e-mail and we're going to look at page three. It's already in evidence.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: That's what you had sent to Allison previously?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you're journaling later on February 10th and you're saying, "Today was another rough day but it ended up being okay. I cried most of the day, but talked to my coach, my brother, my mom and my dad." Now, who is your coach?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, but not -- not Allison?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because this is to Allison?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you make -- you refer to your brother, your mom and your dad. You have a supportive family; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had a supportive family then as well; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: They've always been supportive?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you go on to say, "And was straight up and honest with everybody one around me. Yo, I'm going through a depression. It actually felt really good not to suffer in the depression, but to be straight up about it and not ashamed to say I feel really down right now."
Okay. So one of the things you're doing here with Allison, correct me if I'm wrong, is you're telling Allison exactly how you feel, in writing in this case; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that one of the things that you and Allison were working on generally there, rather than keeping these dark feelings to yourself just putting them out in the world because maybe you'll feel better or getting on the road to feeling better if you do?
NICOLE: I don't remember what, like, the goal was. Before she had me doing, like, a specific exercise, I don't really remember when it switched into more journaling, but I don't know that there was any specific goal with this.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, I think later that same day Allison writes you back. Now we're looking at page two and we're at the bottom here and she writes, "I will be in NYC tomorrow. What's your timeframe? We need to spend some time together. I am sorry I have not been there for you. Let me know. I will prioritize you." Right? That's what she writes to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: So fair to say you're expressing these fears to Allison and Allison is specifically saying I will prioritize you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then -- we don't need to go through it in detail, but guys make plans. It looks like you have a plan to meet at 4:15 the next day at the Ace Hotel; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Up on top here you say, "Today was a much better day. Woke up calmer and more settled. Went for a run, went to class and then went to see Allison." Do you recall if Allison did, in fact, help you, you know, feel better? Was talking to her -- did talking to her make you feel better or help you feel better?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you say magnificence was hard for me in class. What's magnificence?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And I was exhausted, exhausted by all of this emotion but, again, better. And meeting with Allison was wonderful; cozy and comfortable. Has gotten my brain thinking." At this point in time how much time were you spending with Allison?
NICOLE: Not -- not a lot. It was mostly, like, e-mail communication. As she said, that was the first time she had kind of come down to the city to -- and we had met up, but before that it was just, like, if I saw her in class or if I e-mailed her.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. At some point did she -- did Allison e-mail you something about a book called At the Feet of the Master?
NICOLE: It was, like, a passage it was a few pages. It's not a book or what I got from it, it was like a little booklet and that was already when I was in DOS.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what was your understanding of why she sent this passage to you?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: I can't ask the witness her understanding?
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Had you and Allison been talking about At the Feet of the Master at the time she sent it to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what were the two of you talking about around the time that she gave this to you to read?
NICOLE: Well, I was already in The Vow at this time -- sorry, it was called The Vow at that time, but then they changed it to DOS. So at the time when she gave me that it was still referred to as The Vow.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall what the passage was about?
NICOLE: I recall the part that I thought was interesting to me which was that, like, you take care of your body so that you can kind of, like, live a -- be the best version of yourself; which for me had always been, like, I had taken a lot of pride is when I go on stage. I very much like to take care of my body before, like run or meditate or eat very healthy before I go on stage because it's important for me to be at my best so I can give that to the audience is how I felt. Kind of like an athlete.
But I remember it talked a little bit about that in At the Feet of the Master of kind of, like, taking care of your body and your mind so that you can serve, like, your life better. In this passage it said -- I believe it said, like, serve your master better, but Allison would explain to me that -- that what it actually was actually just serve yourself better; so that the word "master" was really more just, like, a reflection -- like she's reflecting back myself. I don't know if it makes total sense, but that's how I looked at it so I thought that that was interesting.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And in the -- in the early part of 2016, do you remember if you were communicating a lot with Allison that you were feeling badly -- you were feeling badly about your choices, you were feeling badly about yourself; that this was a real theme that you were talking to Allison about at this time?
NICOLE: I don't know that I would call it a theme, but, like, obviously that was two messages where I was, but I don't think it was too many -- it was, like, pretty concentrated to that beginning of February.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall if Allison said one of the things that she wanted you to do was to sort of take better care of yourself?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may answer that.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm talking about around the time that she sent you the -- the snippet from At the Feet of the Master. Around that period of time, so February, March, 2016.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
NICOLE: But -- sorry, I'm just getting confused if I'm in The Vow because the relationship changed once I was in The Vow, so --
MR. AGNIFILO: So tell us about that. Tell us about that. Tell us about the relationship. This is your relationship with Allison; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did it change? What was it like before you were in The Vow and what was it like after you were in The Vow?
NICOLE: Well, it changed quite a lot throughout. Before the change it was just two people that cared about acting. I felt I looked up to her as an actress. Afterward -- it started, like, I said on direct, she was really kind at first and sort of acting at times like a mentor and then -- but then, like, kind of as we got a lit little bit further into it then she would be super strict sometimes and then kind and then cruel and then -- but the way that it changed at first was just that I had to -- I had to speak to her every day after that and I had to, like, take -- I was supposed to be trusting her and taking in her advice.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, okay. So I want to direct your attention again to 657 which we talked about a minute ago which is in evidence.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So one of the continuations of one of the e-mails that we looked at is this e-mail that you sent to her on February 13, 2016 at 1:52 a.m. And you say, "Today was okay, not as good as yesterday but maybe that is because I was not as easy with myself today. I expected to be really productive and berated myself for it getting enough done, but I think I still need to be easy. I'm not at 100 percent yet. I definitely need to be focused and moving forward but easy with myself as well. I don't know. I feel a bit lost and unfocused again. I also in a way feel on right track although I need to start living the life I want and not just thinking about living it."
So that's what you write to Allison; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is now Allison to you, from February 13, 2016 at 8:52 a.m., "I am so excited to share with you what I am doing. I think it is exactly what you need. Trust me, you will be okay." We're going to get to the last line in a minute, but the first three. Was this Allison sort of -- at this point were you in The Vow?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did you take this to be Allison -- let me ask it a different way. Was -- at this point when Allison says to you, "I'm so excited to share with you what I am doing," that ends up being The Vow; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: So in response to what you're saying about you struggling and you're berating yourself and you want to be focused and you want to move forward and you're lost and you want to be on the right track. When you say that to Allison, Allison introduces The Vow to you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, the last line here, "Is your collateral finished yet?" What is she talking about there, do you know?
MR. AGNIFILO: What is it?
NICOLE: It was the collateral that she said I needed to do to find out more about what she was doing which was exactly what I needed.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you and Allison had already had a conversation about The Vow before she sends you this e-mail; is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: A few days earlier?
MR. AGNIFILO: So, at the Ace Hotel she said you're going to have to provide collateral; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And here she is following up with you that she's excited to share more with you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And -- and fair to say that prior to Allison coming down and meeting with you at the Ace Hotel you're expressing other thoughts to Allison about your frustration with yourself and your career and where you're going and being unfocused; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: So I think I interrupted you. You were talking about the difference between Allison before and Allison after you were in The Vow. I want to focus on Allison before you were in The Vow. What was your connection to Allison before you were in The Vow. In other words, how often would you speak to her or how often would you see her?
NICOLE: I wouldn't say that I saw her very often at all, but, as I have said, we -- I would see her at a source class. She kind of started to take me under her wing in terms of working with The Source. Obviously they want -- like, she wanted people to work with The Source. She was -- it was, like, her baby. So she was definitely interested in having me teach for The Source. So she kind of took me under her wing.
And then at some point she gave me a couple of exercises to do outside of source stuff which was the first journaling exercises she asked me to do; like, what's happening with your body, is this real or not real. Am I just stressing out about something that's not real. So, it started to, like -- the relationship started to grow a little bit, but I didn't see her very often.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, this is another -- this is another e-mail that's in evidence. It's Government Exhibit 1356.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you talked about this on your direct examination. And this is from you to Allison on March 28, 2016 and it sets out your schedule; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is this something that you would do on a, you know, regular basis, send Allison your schedule?
NICOLE: No. I was really bad at that but that was one thing that she wanted me to start doing. Once I was in The Vow it was one thing that she wanted me to start doing, write down what I was doing to do all the next day and e-mail it to her, but I wasn't always good about it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And here you're anticipating the arrival of your mother a couple of days later or maybe later that same day; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And you have that in your schedule to Allison as well as other things; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember one of the things that Allison and you discussed was you trying to be more open with members of your family?
NICOLE: Not so much open, but, like, more present. I think everyone -- well, I can't speak for everyone. I was always interested in being more present with people in general. So you want to be more present with your family, like, when you have time -- when you have time with them, so absolutely.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's something that you and Allison would discuss; correct? That you wanted to be more present with your family; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you went to Allison and you asked, not asked her help but you discussed this with her; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. 1357.
MR. AGNIFILO: Is 1357 in evidence? Do you guys know? I think it is.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you 1357 which is already in evidence. And we're going to look at a few pages, but we'll start with the first page.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Here is you journaling to Allison. You send it to her on March 31, 12:29 a.m. but it's your journal entry for March 30th. You write in your journal, I'm so proud of myself for being present and loving to my mom and I am so happy that we had such a wonderful time together." So you write that to Allison, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And is that because that's something you and Allison had been discussing?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you -- I don't want to cut you off. If you're finished I'll move on. If not I'll wait for you.
NICOLE: I'm just trying to remember my head space at that time, which was all over the place. At that time I was already getting a little bit scared and nervous about The Vow, but trying to rationalize in my head how it could be a good thing. So if you keep reading, that sentence is like I was, like, great I'm able to be present with my mom right now, but, like, even more so because I feel like I'm on quick sand in the rest of my life it's like -- I was trying to -- in my head I was trying to rationalize how I hadn't ruined everything by joining The Vow and, like, okay, I was present with my mom.
It was already starting to be, like, a little bit chaotic, but the one thing I could do throughout the entire situation that I was in, was, like, focus in on being, like, present with my family when I was with them. So that was something that Allison could, like, turn around and say, like, look didn't your relationships with your family get better? And I'm like, yeah, but that's because I was so focused with just being with them and listening to them because I couldn't talk about what was going on with me.
So I became really good at being present and listening and caring more about my family because technically with the situation with The Vow they could take my family away from me at any point.
MR. AGNIFILO: You agree with me that your life was pretty chaotic before you were in The Vow; right?
NICOLE: I was struggling emotionally. It wasn't chaotic, but it was a little bit hard. I was just having a hard time building -- getting settled in New York the way that I -- the way before you anticipate how hard a move can actually be.
MR. AGNIFILO: Some of the e-mails we looked at before you were in The Vow had some fairly dark thoughts in them, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: Fairly dark thoughts about yourself; things that you could do to yourself?
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's before you were in The Vow?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the third page of that same exhibit which is already in evidence. And we're looking at the top and you write, "Today was good. I did a lot of contemplating and even though I was feeling a lot, I was able to feel myself separate and still enjoy the day as well and even more so still be present and loving with my mom which is one of my biggest goals. I'm so happy my mom is visiting New York City and I want so much to be present for her. In the past I've always been so is wrapped up in my own life and so easily frustrated and flustered when my mom has visited me, so I truly want to be present for this trip and tonight I did and it was wonderful." You wrote that; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you wrote something below it where you talk about men. Do you see that here? It starts here (indicating.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not going to read it all, but a couple of sections. Starting on the third line here you write, "Men also happen to be where I'm the most defiant." What do you mean by that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And but why use the term "defiant"?
NICOLE: I think I'm relating it to when I was 16 years old right there and I was slightly defiant about my first boyfriend.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then sort of towards the end here you write I don't know that answering to a master for the rest of my life is what will serve my soul and journey best. Maybe it's standing on my own two feet trusting my own instincts, enjoying and living fully this life that is right before me."
When did you write this?
NICOLE: That was to the reaction when, I believe, if I am correct, that this was around when I told her about giving out the phone number and then she wrote me back and -- and I was really trying to think through everything because I wanted to be sure that when I went and told her that this was not the path for me, that I was, like, very clear on -- on -- on what I was thinking but it's a little bit of a mind game that -- that they play.
But I think that that actually says it -- that's exactly how I felt the entire time. Like, it's not -- it doesn't actually serve me best and I would rather stand on my own two feet and trust my instincts and that's -- I mean, it says it kind of perfectly to me. And then Allison would say, like, talk about Mother Teresa or Gandhi or people that had completely given up their lives to uphold this principle -- not that I don't absolutely respect Mother Teresa and Gandhi, but I was like I just kind of want to live my life. I want to positively impact the world, but I'm not --
Some of this stuff that Allison said was what made me uncomfortable. I was, like, you are talking about, like, answering to someone else for the rest of your life. I was trying to process this. I was like I don't think this is the right thing for me and that's what was going on at the time.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were very outspoken with Allison time and again about some of your hesitation about The Vow; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: You -- you very often would say to her I don't think this is the right path for me. I don't think this is something that I'm interested in doing or words to that effect; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then there were times when you said to Allison that you think it is helping you; you think that The Vow is helping you? You said both things; right?
NICOLE: Yes. I have a different point of view now, but at the time I confused certain, like, growth aspects to thinking that it was maybe the work that I was doing with Allison. But I don't feel that way now.
MR. AGNIFILO: But I'm going to be asking you mostly about what you did.
MR. AGNIFILO: What you did at the time?
MR. AGNIFILO: And so what you did at the time is you would often write to Allison or say to Allison that, at times, you thought The Vow was very good for you and was helping you. That's what you did; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then just to complete the thought, there were also times when you wrote to Allison and said to Allison that you were uncomfortable with The Vow and you were unsure about it and you didn't think it was for you, words and substance; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, this is already in evidence at 1271.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the first time you reached out to Keith Raniere, April 6, 2016, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Remind us, had you ever spoken to Keith Raniere?
MR. AGNIFILO: Had you seen him?
MR. AGNIFILO: So at this point you had never met him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what you say here is, and I'm looking down here sort of that second small paragraph, "I am sure I will have plenty of questions come up in the future and hope to one day join you for one of these wisdom walks and talks that I hear so much about from Emiliano. I think you said on direct examination that at one point you were having a conversation with Emiliano about how people say that Keith is the smartest man in the world and things along those lines; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you said on direct examination that Keith doesn't want that. It's just people talking about him like that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Keith ever tell you that he was the smartest man in the world?
NICOLE: No, maybe not in those exact words but he would talk to me about how children prodigies has a hard time -- often children prodigies had a hard time integrating into the real world later on in life but because of his childhood he was able to do that more successfully.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, so, you send this first e-mail and nothing happens, right? You don't get a response?
MR. AGNIFILO: And 1272, this is also in evidence?
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is your second e-mail; right? Take a look.
MR. AGNIFILO: So here starting on the second paragraph it says, "The biggest question on my mind, "How do I constantly challenge my fears and be joyful at the same time?" You write that; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What fears are you talking about?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then the last sentence of that paragraph says, "How does one grow and learn to face their fears and be joyful and enjoy their life at the same time?" Is that a question that you genuinely had when you wrote that?
NICOLE: Yeah, part of that was because of The Vow. I was getting nervous about The Vow. It seemed so intense and I was, like, I do want to push on my fears, that is something that I wanted to do in my life, but, like, I also want to be joyful and be able to enjoy my life. So I was kind of, like, you know -- it's not that I don't want to always be growing, it's still something that's important to me, but I don't want it to be scary and it sort of was starting to feel scary.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And at the beginning of the next paragraph you say, "I love the work that I'm doing with The Source." Is that true?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you say, "I'm about to start the five-day in New York City with Lauren." That's Lauren Saltzman; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you took the five-day with Lauren Saltzman; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what was your relationship with Lauren Saltzman over the years?
NICOLE: Not much. The first -- that five-day was kind of the first time where we had talked, but it was just very briefly in terms of the five-day and then when I did the play up in V Week she helped with that doing EMs or stuff before the play or she was involved in the play, but I was never very close to Lauren.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then going to this second-to-last paragraph, you say, I hope that I am simply missing something. I hope that this is an instance where I am proven wrong. In all of the videos I've seen and things I've heard about you, you are very joyful and playful." You write that; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the things, tell me if this is right, that you were struggling with is you -- you didn't want all of the hard work of The Vow and all the pressure of that, you envisioned it being somewhat joyful and playful; correct?
NICOLE: If I was -- at this point, yeah. At this point Allison had already sent me the e-mail saying, like, there's no option there's no out, you've made this decision. So I was, yeah, trying to find a way where, like, I could also be joyful and handle the situation at the same time. Absolutely.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you go on to say, "Thinking about pushing on my fears for the rest of my life doesn't make me feel playful. It makes me feel scared and heavy hearted. It makes me want to run away." That's honestly how you felt; correct? That's one of the things you honestly felt?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're telling that to Keith in this letter; correct? In this e-mail rather?
MR. AGNIFILO: But your telling -- this isn't just a positive, feel-good letter; you're saying honest things to him; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the things that you're saying that's honest is that you feel the scared and heavy-hearted and it makes you want to run away; that's what you're writing to him; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I don't think you -- you don't get a response from this letter either; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Then you send another letter and this is Government Exhibits 1273. It's already in evidence.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I think this is the next day, yeah. The first we looked at was April 17th, this is April 18th. And you write, "So here is the thing, I'm out of my element. I have no idea how to befriend someone that I have never met." And then you basically tell him that Allison is sort of behind this; correct?
(Continued on the following page.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continuing) BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: You say:
Allison told me to be honest with you and the truth is is that Allison is trying to push me, or I assume push against my fears, and is going to stand in a cold shower if I don't figure how to hear back from you at 3:00 a.m. Yeah, that's happening.
So, you're telling him that Allison is behind this; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're also saying, if I don't get you to respond to me, Allison's going to have to take a cold shower; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And then your P.S. at the bottom:
I'm at this moment trying to find what's funny about this situation as opposed to cringe-worthy. I must admit I'm finding a lot of humor in this desperate 1:15 a.m. e-mail. So, yay, gross. Smiley face.
Whatever that is. All right.
So you're -- you're basically -- you've never done this before, you've never had to send an e-mail to someone you didn't know before at the request of another person; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And you're basically saying that, you know, that this is cringe-worthy; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you don't get a response from this one either?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Then you send him Government Exhibit 1274 that makes reference to a TED Talk with the subject polka dots and moonbeams.
Do you remember what the TED Talk was about?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, but I mean what were the fringe benefits of failure? Why are you sending this e-mail?
NICOLE: So -- well, I like this TED Talk. I'm a massive Harry Potter fan. So, this TED Talk talks about how, when she was writing Harry Potter, she had been kind of been in a really low place, had nothing. I mean, I think a lot of people are familiar with J.K. Rowling's story, but, if not, she had been in like a really low place and she talked about the things she learned when she was working a job that was just really sad and heavy, because it was talking about people who had been -- people overseas and their families were being threatened and stuff, and just like it had taught her a lot about life, and the heaviness of life, and she brought a lot of that into her work in writing Harry Potter and just, like, she felt like a complete failure and then what she created out of that was the Harry Potter series.
So I thought -- so it's just a TED Talk that I really liked and Allison had given me some, like, you know, send him something that you care about, tell him thank you for The Source, ask him a question. Like, she was -- you know, so I thought okay, I'll send him one of my favorite TED Talks.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And this one kind of does it and then he responds to you in Government Exhibit 1275; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: So just -- your e-mail was the subject Polka dots and Moonbeams, the one with the TED Talk; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And, then, just so it's clear, is that the -- the other one was subject Fish out of Water; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I know. So he responds to the polka dot and moonbeams one; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And he writes:
Oh, dear, how far do you want me to go? Also, the thing with Allison in the shower, is not a good lever for me but more about ethics later. How committed are you to working to get this answer? It's a scary, difficult journey to experiencing existence with the lightness of true freedom, with the depth of love. Thank you for persisting. I just got your three e-mails long after Allison just have started her refreshing shower.
And that's what he writes to you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then --
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't think this is in evidence, 1378? Is it? It is in evidence.
THE COURT: 1378?
MR. AGNIFILO: 1378, I think it is in evidence already.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, this is what we just saw. This is Keith's response in the other e-mail and then you respond to him. And you write:
Yeah, I wasn't sure about that lever, but I got scared and panicked. Thank you for the feedback on that. I have much to learn about ethics. And I am very committed to getting the answer.
Now, what answer? You're committed to getting what answer?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So what you're telling him here is that you are committed to getting that answer. Was that a truthful statement; were you committed to getting that answer?
NICOLE: Well, yeah, I was already in The Vow, so, I was being told that I had committed. So, yeah, I was committed to figuring out how to be joyful during this, like, crazy process.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you trying to get the answer as to how to be joyful in your life before you entered The Vow?
MR. AGNIFILO: So the notion of you wanting to have a joyful life didn't start with The Vow; you were trying to be joyful before you were in The Vow?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you say:
Very committed to getting the answer, terrified, excited, curious, feeling all sorts of contradicting emotions about it, but I am committed. It feels similar to acting for me. I get frustrated and I get scared and I throw a tantrum and I want to quit.
Right, you write that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And sometimes you did want to quit; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And sometimes you wrote that you didn't want to quit; you wanted to stick it out because you thought it would be genuinely better for you?
NICOLE: Sometimes I felt like I must be missing something. They were telling me to trust all the time and I just thought maybe I'm missing something, like, maybe this really is, like -- I don't know. I just thought maybe I'm missing something because to me this feels very scary and often, like, not at all what I want, but, like, maybe I'm missing something. Like, I was supposed to be trusting Allison. So I was constantly thinking that like trying to understand what I might not be understanding or where I might be wrong. So, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Then you continue on the next page:
The exploration and journey to experiencing existence with the lightness of true freedom, with the depth of love, scary and difficult as it may be, is what I want to experience. I can't even comprehend what the lightness of true freedom or the depth love are at the moment, but I want to answer that question, I want to live a full life. I know I'll hate moments of it. I know I'll fight against the fear and challenges.
That's what you write; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then Keith writes you back, on the first page of this e-mail, and Keith writes in response to that:
Well, okay. Here's some quick thoughts to start. Feel free to ask questions for I'm jumping a lot and compressing. Freedom comes in two forms: Freedom by denial. This causes damage and also destroys conscience. Two, freedom of the unencumbered self. This is the complete opposite of number one.
As children, we experience one and feel great because it appears we can do anything without effect. This feels like a lightness of being, but it is delusional, nilpotent, and irresponsible. As we grow and evolve, we find every attachment to the external role limits us. Some people believe that they satisfy all of theirs attachments, then they will achieve freedom. In actuality, they lose a true sense of self. The only way to true freedom and full sense of self is to fight through attachments. This is a long, hard, scary fight and can only be one through dedication, discipline, and commitment to something beyond ourselves and our excuses.
True freedom in the physical world comes from absolute commitment to a principle, with no tolerance for excuses or an out/escape. Only then do we find our freedom does not depend on being able to do what we want. It depends on not being able to do what we want yet still experiencing self. Love is only measured through pain. Our ability to feel human pain determines the depth and strength of our love.
That is what he writes to you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And then at the bottom, the last thing he says is, surprisingly, it's -- let me get the whole thing:
I hope this doesn't scare you away. For most people, becoming deeper and creating a deep meaning for life threatens to interfere with fine social norms and freedom. Surprising, it's the exact opposite but really scary shit.
Correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Were you interested in this sort of dynamic, you know, the idea you might be able to be happier and find greater freedom through commitment to a principle?
NICOLE: I mean, maybe I thought that for a moment before I realized what this principle actually was, that I was supposedly committed to, but not really. I mean, I didn't grow up religious, so I never had that kind of, like -- I am spiritual in my own way, but I never sort of had that outlook on things, I just kind of did my only thing.
MR. AGNIFILO: You --
MR. AGNIFILO: 1277.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. You respond to Keith's e-mail on April 21st, 2016, and I'm just going to show --
MR. AGNIFILO: This is not yet in evidence, Judge, so I am just going to show it to the witness and the parties.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So you can see it's an e-mail from you -- hold on.
MR. AGNIFILO: Hold on, one second. Actually, it might be easier if I show it to the witness and then ask her a couple questions without putting it into evidence.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is -- just for reference, it is Government Exhibit 1277 and it is -- and this is not being shown to the jury, just so you understand.
MR. AGNIFILO: It is from yourself and it is to Keith Raniere; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And do me a favor, just take a few minutes to read it and I'm just going to ask you some questions about what you were thinking at the time.
And when you want me to move it, just ask me.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no, take as much time as you want.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. There you go.
MR. AGNIFILO: So basically, when it comes time to respond to Keith, you tell him it's going to take a lot more than that to scare you away; correct?
NICOLE: Yes, but you have to understand that I was like already in The Vow at this point, so I wasn't going anywhere.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm asking you -- I'm really just going to ask you --
MR. AGNIFILO: No, no, no, don't be sorry. I'm really going to focus on things that you did, okay? I understand you have a viewpoint now and I will ask you about that at some point.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm really just going to focus on things you did.
So what you did is you wrote to him that it was going to take more than this to scare you away; correct?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, we will offer this as 1277.
MS. PENZA: We object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: May we approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Next question.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, could we approach? I asked to approach.
THE COURT: Next question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Had you been pondering these concepts?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, concepts of, you know, how best to achieve joy and whether you can achieve joy through -- how best to do that, whether it be adherence to a principle or, you know, just by living your life without adherence to a principle?
NICOLE: Yes, of course, Allison had been asking me to contemplate that a lot recently. So, had I thought about that before The Vow? No.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now -- but before The Vow, you hadn't -- since you were in The Vow, had you ever expressed to anyone that you were suicidal, after being in The Vow?
NICOLE: No, I kept that to myself because I would have had to explain why and I wasn't allowed to talk about The Vow.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But you agree with me, in terms of what you did, in terms of things that you wrote, before you were in The Vow, you did express that you had those thoughts, you expressed those things in writing; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And after you joined The Vow, you didn't ever express that you were feeling suicidal?
MR. AGNIFILO: Some of the e-mails that we read, you expressed a desire to sort of understand what it is that could bring you a joyful life; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And part of what you were talking about is whether these teachings, you know, adherence to a principle, you know, commitment, things like that, could bring you a joyful life, that is one of the things that you were writing about and that you and Allison were talking about; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were interested in exploring that possibility, fair to say?
NICOLE: Yeah, if there's no other option, yes, of course. I was -- I'm always interested in making the best of the situation.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. But you agree with me, in the writings that we looked at, you didn't ever say I'm just going to try to make the best of a bad situation; you never wrote that in the things that we read?
MR. AGNIFILO: But again, I am just asking about what you did or didn't say to Keith.
MR. AGNIFILO: You never said that to Keith; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What you said to Keith, from what we looked at, that's already in evidence, is that you are wondering about how to have a life of joy; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I'm not sure when we want to take the break, given our new schedule. Keep going?
THE COURT: Just keep going.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, 654, I believe is already in evidence. It is a series of e-mails between you and Allison, and we are going to go to the first one.