6.Nicole — Cross/Redirect (Part 5)
686 linesCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon, Nicole.
MR. AGNIFILO: I am going to ask you some more questions. If I ask you a question that is not clear, just ask me to rephrase it or ask a different question. I'm happy to do that. Okay?
MR. AGNIFILO: Before we broke for the lunch break we were talking, you had mentioned that Pam at one point was very, very ill; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And that, in fact, she soon thereafter passed away, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think on direct examination you told us that you did some work on Pam's memorial, is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: What did you do exactly?
NICOLE: We were asked by Allison, as like an assignment, to listen and transcribe things that Pam had said about life. I think -- all I know is that I was just supposed to write down what I was hearing, like through a transcribing -- through typing it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
Hadn't you said to Keith that anything that you could do for the Pam memorial you'd be happy to do?
MR. AGNIFILO: I mean you -- I think you said before, before lunch, you know, you're an empathetic person and your heart went out to Keith because he was about to lose Pam, who you knew he had a very long-term relationship with, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And the Pam memorial was something that you knew meant a lot to Keith because you guys discussed it, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember saying at one point to him: You know, if there's anything I can do as part of the memorial, you know, kind of count me in type thing?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, you don't think you ever said that to him?
NICOLE: I don't remember saying that. And it wasn't -- the way Allison put it, you had to do this by 5:00 a.m., which meant I couldn't sleep because it had to be turned in by 5:00 a.m. Like, was that ever necessary?
MR. AGNIFILO: And, what, there was a movie made, there was a movie made about Pam's life?
NICOLE: I don't remember -- there were like different, like the whole thing was set up like different stations that talked about different parts of Pam's life.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what specifically did you work on, do you remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And Souki worked on it as well, to your knowledge; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And a lot of people, from what you could see a lot of people worked on Pam's memorial, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, and in addition to people in your group, there was a lot of work done by a lot of people, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And this was all part of the memorial service for Pam, for her passing, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you really expect to be paid?
NICOLE: You sort of grew to not expect to be paid doing things in NXIVM because often you weren't, but I don't remember thinking about that. I just remember that I -- that I was frustrated that it was given to me as such a short timeline and that we had to turn it in and I had to stay up for 23 hours straight to get it in, which, like -- and that it was used under DOS as like an assignment. That's what I was upset about.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you thought that you were helping commemorate Pam's life as a DOS assignment?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, Allison and you would talk about all sorts of different things; I mean Allison helped you with your career, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, she set you up with a talent agency, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did she get you an audition with a show, like a play?
MR. AGNIFILO: An off-Broadway play?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you didn't think you should pay her for doing that, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I mean she was doing it because she was trying to help you out as -- as friends or colleagues or however you want to say it, right?
NICOLE: Yeah, I thought that was a little bit part of, like, what the mentorship was supposed to be. But also, yeah, I think in the industry we always -- you always try to hook someone up if you can, like give them a reference. Because it's really hard to get agency meetings, but if you have a reference it makes it, like, so much easier, so...
MR. AGNIFILO: And you would all do favors for each other in the community from time to time, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, just getting back to the issue of diet, was it your understanding that Danielle was on a 1600-calorie- a-day diet?
NICOLE: I think at one point because she worked out a lot, so I don't know. Yeah, I -- I couldn't tell you exactly how many, because I was with India more, but I think that hers was higher because she was like very -- she was very athletic and she had a very athletic body type, so...
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point were you working with two other women to help them explore their sexuality through The Source tools?
NICOLE: Yeah, Allison had brought that up and thought it would be a good idea for me; and I said, yeah, that's great. I mean at that point, I don't know, it's nice to help someone like feel more comfortable if they're struggling because when you're teaching Source classes, someone, like, brings an issue to you and you might, like, help -- help them through that, but it was at Allison's suggestion.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the issue in this particular case that these two women were contending with was the issue of sexuality, their own sexuality?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just tell the jury what you did.
NICOLE: I don't even remember. I don't know, maybe I had them work on a character that was comfortable with their sexuality and that's one way to do it. Like -- or like not even that, 'cause you could just do it with confidence. Right?
So you just have someone practice, like, okay, like, say you're doing a character that's really confident in her body and she can just like kind of walk in her body. Like how would that feel?
I think what someone's looking for more in that moment is confidence than -- than anything else. They just want to, like, feel good in their own body. So it's like okay, imagine you're playing a character that feels really comfortable in their body. Something like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, but the term that you used specifically was not confidence, it was sexuality.
You were helping these two people with their -- be more sexual with their sexuality?
NICOLE: No, I mean that's not what I was actually doing. It's like the confidence, and then they can do what they want with that confidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: Give me one second.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to show you -- now, you said that you did give your phone to the Government and they got certain text messages from your phone, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I am going to show you what's been produced in discovery.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is Defense Exhibit 919, just for the witness.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: Just for the time being, I am going to have you focus on, just read it to yourself, it's that part right there.
(Indicating.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember -- do you remember saying that you felt like you were suppressing your own sexuality at different times?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember this being an assignment with helping these two women not suppress their own sexuality, be able to express it more openly?
NICOLE: No, I don't. I think it was just through The Source classes Allison said: Hey, these girls want to work on sexuality; which, to me, in terms of the The Source and acting meant they want to work on characters. Because the reason why you would want to work on your sexuality in The Source would be for character work.
So one of the -- one of the women, she was -- she's beautiful and she would go out for a lot of sexier characters and sometimes that, like, feels uncomfortable being in an audition room like that, you know.
So I don't think we were working on suppressing. I think that was a different thing that I was saying.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you and Keith would talk about many different topics, including movies, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you enjoy movies, you enjoy watching movies?
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the movies you and Keith discussed is the movie Life is Beautiful, right, do you remember that?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember you and Keith discussing that it was one of the more beautiful movies that each of you had seen?
NICOLE: Yes. I remember I told Allison that I really loved that movie. It's a very beautiful movie. And she said: Oh, that's Keith's favorite movie, you should talk to him about it. And we did talk about it.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall if you had certain insights between -- well, let me just, in a nutshell, what's the movie about?
Can you give us a quick -- a quick rundown of what the movie is about?
NICOLE: Yeah. So, it's about World War II and a family in Italy gets taken to the concentration camps and the mom gets separated from the dad and the son. And the dad -- sorry, it's just really emotional. The dad, like, protects the son through the whole story so he -- he doesn't know what's going on. They're in a concentration camp and yet he's trying to protect his son, so he makes it into a game and, like, just constantly puts himself at risk so that he can -- can shelter his son from, like, the horrors that are going on in the concentration camp. And it's very -- it's very beautiful, but it has a very sad ending.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember you and Keith having a discussion about that the commitment that the father had to his son, even though it was painful and ended in pain, is kind of the same kind of commitment that Keith is talking about, you know, when it comes to DOS?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember having a conversation with Keith about the father's commitment , the father's commitment to his son from the movie?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You can answer that question.
NICOLE: I mean not specifically, but I -- I don't -- I don't know. I don't remember what we had talked about, except that he liked the movie as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: Bear with me one second.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO: (Continuing.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, just give me one second, Judge.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'll come back to it.
Do you remember you and Keith exchanging e-mails about this?
NICOLE: No -- I do remember that he likes the movie as well. I don't remember what we talked about concerning it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember trying to schedule pizza nights between you and Keith at the library?
NICOLE: I did that once and it was at another time when I was really trying to make things work and I thought, hey, if I'm going to do this and, like, this is my future, I would like to have it -- because nothing that ever happened symbolized any kind of -- I don't know. It was always kind of, like, uncomfortable and I thought I was never going to go on a date again. So that's what I thought. I thought, well, why don't I make it a date. I also -- it never had happened but it was one of my ideas for how to make things less awkward or try to make that work.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were doing things to try to sort of make -- make the relationship better, bring you guys closer, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: And what date were you branded, do you remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: You're not sure of the exact date?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember sending Keith a text that it would be good for the two of you to have sex before you were branded?
MR. AGNIFILO: In the actual text you don't use -- you use, I would like to F before I get branded?
NICOLE: Yeah, but it's weird because I say it in quotations and it's also not how I normally speak so I don't know. It just seems weird.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is Defense 922 for identification only.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: My question when you've had a chance to read it is, "I'd like to fuck before I get branded"; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Why did you say that to him?
MR. AGNIFILO: You say, "It would be trickier after the branding"; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember sending this to him on or about January 9, 2017 many?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now do you say similar things at other times, maybe not using the exact words or that particular words, other things at other times indicating that you wanted to have sex with Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: How many times would you say that you spent the night at the library?
MR. AGNIFILO: 10 times, 20 times, more or less?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you remember sending him a text message on Valentine's Day 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember what you wrote?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Did you say something?
MS. PENZA: I said "Objection."
THE COURT: I did not hear you. Speak up.
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I will.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember specifically remember what you said to him on Valentine's Day, 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I'm going to show you --
MR. AGNIFILO: Just for the witness, 927. Defense 927.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may we have a sidebar before the next question?
THE COURT: All right
(Sidebar held outside of the hearing of the jury.)
(Continued on next page.)
(The following sidebar took place outside the hearing of the jury.)
THE COURT: What is the problem?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, again, I just don't think that she's -- I think that Mr. Agnifilo can ask a question about whether there was a sexual message sent on Valentine's Day and then refresh her recollection and get that, but to elicit the exact words I think is hearsay and I don't think --
THE COURT: It is hearsay and I do not want to debate it. So --
MR. AGNIFILO: But I'm not offering it for the truth. I don't think -- it's not capable of being true or false. It's all about the statement and the nature of the statement, you know.
THE COURT: Well, the statement itself is hearsay.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's not hearsay because he can't possibly be a six and she can't be a nine. So it's not hearsay because it's not offered for the truth.
MS. PENZA: Just because there is a euphemism for performing oral sex together does not make it not hearsay just because she's not literally the number six.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's not being offered for the truth --
THE COURT: You can ask the question in such a question that does not require the exact words to be provided and, then, if she says she does not remember, you can show her the document and then you can ask her the question again and you're stuck with the answer. Either the answer is, yeah, that refreshes my recollection; I said we're -- I was looking forward to having oral sex with the defendant or it doesn't refresh my recollection. I think that is basically the way I learned it. But, you know, I do not know how you learned it.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I'm not going to elicit -- this person's sensibility and her sense of her own sexuality is relevant and there's nothing wrong with it.
THE COURT: You are way down the road on that subject. I do not think that you have been hamstrung in finding out, you know, what her sexual sensibilities are. She's been telling you that for the last two days, so --
Any questions?
MS. PENZA: No. I just want to raise that this is about a year after the incident with the table that she's already testified to so I think it's also highly misleading at this point.
THE COURT: I understand. Try to do it my way and then -- you know, like I have said a dozen times at least, you have made your record. All right? Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
(Sidebar ends.)
(Continued on next page.)
(Continuing.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show this just to the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: This is Defendant's Exhibit 927. Do you recall sending Mr. Raniere a highly sexualized message on Valentine's Day 2017?
NICOLE: Vaguely, but I was just trying to make him laugh. It wasn't like -- it wasn't supposed to be sexual. It was just supposed to make him laugh because this was, like, at a time when Pam was -- the memorial for Pam was happening and I tried to be nice and I looked up, like, Valentine's Day, like, sayings. And this one seemed appropriate for him. It does not mean I was interested in it, I thought it might make him laugh.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, regardless of whether you're interested or not, do you recall what you said?
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that what you wrote? Is that what you recall?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you're saying you were being -- you were being -- you sent him this very sexualized message to make him feel better?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, because it was a sad --
THE COURT: Sorry?
MR. AGNIFILO: I thought Your Honor said something.
THE COURT: No.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: But at this point you and he were having an intimate relationship; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: What do you call it?
MR. AGNIFILO: You said that you spent how many nights at the library?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were having intimate contact with him; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Understood. But sometimes in the library you were; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were going on walks together; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you even had issues at the time with your boss that you had Keith help you with; correct?
NICOLE: Yes, but it sort of benefited them as well. Allison and Keith as well because then I had a schedule that was set and I wasn't, like, so spastically running back and forth.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Your boss at the Tao Group was named ; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you showed Keith e-mails that you were sending your boss so that Keith could help you with them; correct?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor --
THE COURT: The name of the boss -- she had a boss. It could have been Neville Chamberlain for all we know. She admits she had a boss. The testimony remains. The name is stricken.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fine, fine.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And, so, you -- my point is that you and Keith had interactions about a lot of different things, in addition to having an intimate relationship; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, but you -- you're being sweet to him and he's being sweet to you. Wasn't Keith sweet to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Keith ever yell at you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, I didn't ask Allison. Keith. Did Keith ever raise his voice to you in anger?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Keith ever speak meanly to you or call you a name or make you, you know, feel bad about yourself by being mean to you and aggressive or anything like that?
MR. AGNIFILO: He never threatened you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: But I'm asking very specific questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: When Keith was with you -- when you and Keith were together, he was always sweet to you; is that true?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. If you wanted to talk to him about something, he would talk to you about that thing; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you went on these walks sometimes there were things that you wanted to talk about and you would talk about those topics; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then sometimes there were things that Keith wanted to talk about and then you would talk about those topics; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And when you wanted to stay in the library did Keith ever say no to you?
NICOLE: Yeah -- but -- a couple of times for various reasons but it -- it's also just, like, draining on you to have to ask permission to ask to stay somewhere, like, every time. I did not particularly like that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, because that -- that's -- that's where he was. I mean, it wasn't your house; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you were staying there for free. He never asked for rent from you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And, in fact, when you were nervous about your own financial situation, he gave you access to money; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall -- do you recall one night making a $5,000 tip at your job?
NICOLE: I mean, not particularly but also that's not exactly how it works because there's 13 waitresses and when you make a tip like that, then it's, like, divided up between everyone so it was a very exciting night, but that's definitely not what I made.
MR. AGNIFILO: But someone -- you didn't get the whole thing, but someone gave you a $5,000 tip?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So, you would have to split the $5,000 tip with a number of other people; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you go back to Keith and say, you know what, I don't need $40 for the train because I got a 13th of a $5,000 tip?
MR. AGNIFILO: So you didn't do it?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you had complained to Keith how much you needed money. You would always go to him, I don't have enough money. This is stressing me out; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: How did you phrase it?
NICOLE: I think I was frustrated at The Vow and DOS and I was frustrated with having to come up to Albany every week when I had other bills, too, and I was trying to, like, again, build my life and so I was frustrated about having to spend all of this money coming up and down and that was part of what -- what I was using the money that he gave me for.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And so to stop you from being frustrated he gave you access to this money; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: But you were making your own money. You were making money working in the nightclub; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And on this one particular occasion you got a $5,000 tip that had to be split and you never said to Keith, you know what, I don't need your $40. I got a 13th of a $5,000 tip?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not asking what you did with it. I'm asking if you mentioned to Keith that you got this very large -- how many $5,000 tips did you get?
NICOLE: I don't know. Like me, personally, working there? I have no idea. It's a nightclub. There's a lot of money that comes through it.
MR. AGNIFILO: So maybe five or ten times you got $5,000 tips?
MR. AGNIFILO: Give me an idea.
MR. AGNIFILO: You said maybe five? I just didn't hear what you said.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you remember this one particular time; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't mean remember the date, but do you remember getting a $5,000 tip?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
NICOLE: Also I was still paying Allison back for The Source. So when I got extra money I then wrote it to Allison to pay her back for The Source, so --
MR. AGNIFILO: And of the $10,000, how much did you spend?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you kept track; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you pay any of that back?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you bring someone into DOS?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you speak to someone about bringing them into DOS?
NICOLE: Not -- not -- I did, like, one very, very first step, but it never went anywhere further than that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell us what was the first step that you did. Was this around May, early May, 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So tell us what happened.
MR. AGNIFILO: By you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I'm not asking names but, like, who was this person to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it never came to pass?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm just --
MR. AGNIFILO: So you had these preliminary conversations with this other actress; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you ever have a secondary conversation?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell Allison that you were having these conversations?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at some point -- withdrawn.
For a while, Allison knew nothing about your relationship with Keith from you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And for a while you didn't tell Allison you had an intimate relationship with Keith; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then at a certain point did you tell him?
NICOLE: I think it's -- towards the end -- because I was obviously very stressed out. Like I said in my direct, I would get really stressed out that I didn't have anyone to talk to about what was happening between Keith and I. So I didn't have anyone to talk to and then I think eventually he gave me permission to talk a little bit more to Allison about it. But it was very close to when I left, so I don't remember actually going into it much at all.
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point you realized -- let me back up. In the spring of 2017 a number of people started to leave NXIVM and DOS; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think one of the people you said on direct examination was someone named Sarah Edmondson; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And a number of other people left as well; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at some point you realized you didn't want to remain in DOS; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you spoke to Allison about leaving DOS; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Allison said you can leave and your collateral wouldn't be released; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Tell me how it went down.
NICOLE: I believe I explained it indirect, but there was a series of things that happened and then we were in the car driving and she got frustrated with me and she said, like, Why don't you just leave. And I was like, what do you mean? Because my family. And she said, well, what if your collateral would be released. And I was -- I mean, I was -- just trying to process that and so that's a little more about how it went down.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember sending Allison an e-mail around June 20, 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I don't believe this is in evidence. I'm going to show it to the witness for identification purposes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's Defense 936 for identification. Actually give me one second.
(Pause in proceedings.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. I'm going to show you 936. Let me make it bigger so you can see it. That's from you to Allison Mack on June 20, 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: And it goes through that whole page and it goes on to the second page; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor we offer it at this time.
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: This is your statement of your reasons for leaving DOS; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at this particular time you had already had the conversation with Allison about the fact that your collateral would not be released; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And what were you saying?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you --
MR. AGNIFILO: And you expressed that you were thankful to her; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I think -- and you expressed being thankful to Keith as well; correct?
(Continued on the following page.)
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO: (Continuing)
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But at one point, do you agree with me, you express to Allison that the hardest thing was to let Allison, India and Keith down; correct?
NICOLE: Yeah, because they made it feel like, if I was leaving, I was letting everyone down and it just felt like a lot of pressure on me.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you go on to say that you are eternally thankful for everything that you guys have done for you and that they've taught you; correct?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MR. AGNIFILO: You agree that you had just made reference to Allison, India and Keith in the previous sentence?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were thankful for the unconditional love that Allison showed you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: I am just asking what you communicated to Allison when you were leaving DOS.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point, I think on direct examination, you told us about the last time -- I guess the last time you saw Keith, which is around June 26, 2017, does that sound about right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you rented a car?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you drove up to Albany?
MR. AGNIFILO: When you got up to Albany, who did you see before seeing Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then, for a while, you were waiting for Keith?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was it volleyball?
MR. AGNIFILO: Was it a Friday? Do you remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. They played volleyball on different days?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So you were waiting for Keith for a while, and you're getting sick of waiting, and you are communicating to him in writing that you're thinking about leaving soon; correct?
NICOLE: Yeah, I was super frustrated. I felt it was like I tried to give them the exact times I would be up there and I felt like it was just, like, another one of his tactics to just make me wait around, like, all night and I didn't appreciate that.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Did you tell him that he added to your life?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell him that he taught you so much?
MR. AGNIFILO: In the written communication?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell him that you would always cherish the walks that you and he had?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, when you saw him, where were the two of you when you saw each other on June 26th?
NICOLE: The normal area that you walk, like, it's like a loop around Allison's house, Clifton Park.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is fairly early in the morning? I mean like two or three a.m.-type thing?
MR. AGNIFILO: And eventually you did see Keith? Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said, on direct examination, he asked you if he was ever going to see you again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you also said he asked you if he was ever going to speak to you again; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think he also asked you if you were going to say bad things about him; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: He didn't raise his voice with you; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he seem sad?
NICOLE: Yeah, but he is kind of like always -- the world was always weighing on him in some way or another.
MR. AGNIFILO: He was always a little sad?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he seem especially sad when he was talking to you at the idea that he may never see you or speak to you again?
MR. AGNIFILO: Because you were -- the two of you were standing next to each other; right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he say he was sad? Did he actually say the words I'm sad that I'm never going to see you and speak to you again?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you -- how long would you say this last conversation was between the two of you?
NICOLE: I don't know, like my adrenaline was pretty high at that point, and I remember I was pretty nervous. So the timeline, I only remember very little of that last walk, so I'm not sure, but it... I think I started driving home around 4:00, so maybe it was an hour. 4:00 or 5:00, I don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember when you got home at 7:40 in the morning, you sent him a message that you got home safely?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
NICOLE: I remember he sent me a message, a quote from Man's Search for Meaning, which, I don't know, I found kind of annoying because it -- it takes man's search for meaning out of context, which is also what they did a lot is take great writers and great thinking concepts and take them a little bit out of context, which messes with your head. I remember getting that text, but...
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember that being the next day?
NICOLE: I thought it was right when I got home that I had that text, but I couldn't tell you exactly when.
MR. AGNIFILO: And after that, have you spoken to him?
MR. AGNIFILO: And for a while you weren't really talking to anybody. So we are talking like, you know, in the summer of 2017, so, you know, July into August, you're really not -- you're just kind of laying low, fair to say?
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall, at some point in late August, getting a message from Mark Vicente's wife Bonnie?
NICOLE: I remember her sending me one nice text, saying like I hope you're okay, if you want to reach out and talk, I'm here for you. But, again, I just kind of wanted to stay away from everything, so I didn't talk to anyone.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember --
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember having communications with Catherine Oxenberg on October 31, 2017, around then?
MR. AGNIFILO: And then you guys met in the City?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at that point, was India still in DOS, to your knowledge?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And is that one the things that you discussed with Katherine Oxenberg when you met her for lunch?
MR. AGNIFILO: And at one point, Katherine Oxenberg gives you names of people that you can talk to; do you remember that, on November 3rd?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember the name Rick Ross?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you remember the name Neil Glazer?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember Katherine sending you Neil Glazer's name and contact information?
NICOLE: I do. Sorry, I thought it was Jay that had sent that. But maybe, I -- I did get Neil's information.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then another lawyer named Art Middlemiss, do you remember that name?
MR. AGNIFILO: And why are you -- what are you going to do with these three names? Why are you getting three names from Katherine Oxenberg?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: Again, I'm not asking about any conversations you had with people.
At the time, were you looking for a lawyer?
NICOLE: Yeah, I was thinking, as like the letter that you saw earlier today or yesterday, I can't remember, I was -- yeah, I mean, look, when I came out, like everything was kind of crazy and Mark Hildreth kept saying to me, like, you should get a lawyer, and I just wanted to stay out of all the drama. But, like, eventually it was kind of, like, okay, now I would like to protect myself. Like, just things were still weird and I didn't want to get caught in some crazy crossfire of not knowing my rights, and also they did still have my collateral and I was sort of feeling like safe enough to be, like, okay, do I have rights for that? I didn't understand, like -- it was just so overwhelming, so definitely getting a lawyer seemed like the responsible thing to do.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was there talk about a civil lawsuit against NXIVM and Keith Raniere?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember having a conversation with Frank Parlato in November of 2017?
MR. AGNIFILO: And did he call you or did you call him?
NICOLE: Originally, I e-mailed him to have him take me off of all the things on his site, because I did not want anything to do with anything, anything NXIVM related, anything DOS related. I just wanted to move on with my life and he said that I needed to call him for him to take the stuff down and I, unfortunately, did not have a lawyer yet, so I tried to handle things myself.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did he pressure you to be involved in a lawsuit?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling that to the FBI?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure, do you remember telling the FBI that Frank Parlato pressured you to join a lawsuit against NXIVM?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, I'm just going to show you something. I'm just going to show you one page and have you read it to yourself.
This is 3500-N, number one, it's page 4 of that document.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm just going to have you read this to yourself.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember telling the FBI -- this is your first interview with them, so it would have been on November 9, 2017, that Frank Parlato was pressuring you to join a lawsuit against NXIVM and also speak with law enforcement regarding NXIVM?
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I will allow it.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, so tell us --
NICOLE: But not a lawsuit. Sorry. I'm sorry. He was pressuring me to talk to people and to tell him information. He said at one point he had my collateral. It was like -- I was -- oh, my God. It was incredibly -- it was like again? I have to go through this again? Like are you kidding me right now? And at that point I got a lawyer, because I was like I cannot do this again. Someone else can not be telling me that they have my collateral, like this is unbelievable.
So I got scared.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
THE COURT: I'd like to have a sidebar.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, sure.
(Sidebar held outside the hearing of the jury.)
(Continued on the next page.)
THE COURT: Okay. Nicole, I have a quick question for you.
THE COURT: The last question that was asked by counsel, do you have any evidence or indication that Mr. Parlato's claims are true or not true?
THE COURT: So you have no idea whether he has the material or does not have the material or where the material is?
THE COURT: It hasn't been returned to you?
THE COURT: Okay. I wanted to make that clear for the jury, that people make claims that may not be true, and you have no independent knowledge of whether his claim is accurate or inaccurate or made up of whole cloth.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Let's keep going.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say, you took what Mr. Parlato said to you as a threat? Is that fair?
NICOLE: I was just very uncomfortable, yeah. Well, I was very uncomfortable with the situation and I... yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what did Mr. Parlato ask you to do? What do you recall him asking you to do?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Following up on -- just following up, because you -- I had asked you initially, and I want you to tell me what you remember and don't remember, if you had told the FBI that Frank Parlato was pressuring you to join a lawsuit against NXIVM?
Do you remember when I asked you that question?
THE COURT: I will allow that question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, this is the second question: Do you remember telling that to the FBI?
Regardless of whether you remember Frank Parlato saying that to you, do remember telling that to the FBI?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your first interview, you don't remember?
MR. AGNIFILO: Second question: Do you remember Frank Parlato telling you that you should go to law enforcement because of what happened to you?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you told that to the FBI as well; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, you said that you had several conversations with Frank Parlato; is that right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are these all in sort of a limited period of time or do you talk to him over a course of weeks or so?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: And your lawyer, Mr. Glazer is here today, right? He is the gentleman, my colleague here to my left, right?
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you intending to bring a civil suit?
MR. AGNIFILO: No?
MR. AGNIFILO: You have no intentions of bringing a civil suit?
MR. AGNIFILO: You and other people.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you intend to be part of a class-action lawsuit?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not -- I am going to ask you the question, I'm not asking you for anything that you and Mr. Glazer discussed, okay, so when I ask you this question, it is not conversations between you and Mr. Glazer, okay?
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you discussed with anybody else the prospect of bringing a class-action lawsuit against NXIVM?
MR. AGNIFILO: You haven't discussed with Jay, for instance?
MR. AGNIFILO: When was the last time you spoke to Mark Vicente?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall having a conversation with Souki about the making of a documentary?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you have not played any role in that?
MR. AGNIFILO: Understand. Do you remember you and Souki discussing a 20/20 episode, the show 20/20, the TV show?
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember that there was a broadcast about NXIVM on 20/20?
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not going to get into anything that was said; I just want to ask if you had certain conversations.
At a certain point you started speaking to the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: At a certain point, you realized -- you know that other people were talking to the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say, you and certain of these other people would talk after you went in to the FBI, or the other person went in to the FBI; correct?
NICOLE: It wasn't like particularly -- Souki and I would talk sometimes about our own experiences and what we went through, but it didn't necessarily correlate with going in to the FBI.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do your remember having written communications with Souki or with Jay about when each of them, including yourself, would go and speak to law enforcement?
MR. AGNIFILO: Give me a second.
I am going to show you -- just for identification --
MR. AGNIFILO: This is just for the witness, Judge.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Defense 905.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember having conversations with other people about, you know, just got done at the U.S. Attorney's Office, went for seven hours, things along those lines?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, and do you remember --
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I am not -- I'm just asking the questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you remember having similar conversations with Jay?
MR. AGNIFILO: Just give me one second, Judge.
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said, on direct examination, that your godmother is a psychologist?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Not in New York, somewhere else?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you had a roommate named Katie?
MR. AGNIFILO: And you guys were close?
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think you said, on direct examination, you have a close, loving, wonderful family that supports you; correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: And how long were you in DOS?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you even got to the point where you had preliminary conversations about bringing someone else into DOS in May of 2017; right?
NICOLE: I did not think there was an out, at that point, but it was a lot of pressure from Allison and it is also something that I am incredibly ashamed of.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, I understand.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I don't think I have anything else at this point. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Redirect?
MS. PENZA: Just briefly, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
(Continued on following page.)
REDIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Good afternoon, Nicole.
MS. PENZA: When you -- the text messages that Mr. Agnifilo showed you between you and Souki, did you discuss any content of what had happened in your interviews with the FBI?
MS. PENZA: And is that something that we asked you not to discuss with other people?
MS. PENZA: And did you agree to do that?
MS. PENZA: Now, Mr. Agnifilo asked some questions about a friend of yours who you asked her interest in a mentorship program?
MS. PENZA: And you got emotional and said that it was stressful to think about.
Can you explain that?
NICOLE: Well, I think I didn't want to bring anyone into DOS. I understood that we were supposed to, but there were several conversations where I said I didn't want to. In fact, directly to Keith I said I didn't want to because I didn't want to put someone through what I had been through. And he laughed at me and said I hadn't been through that much.
I just I didn't want to bring anyone in because I still -- I still wasn't sure what the hell I was in. And I think that a part of me, like, really wanted to believe, like, when Allison started putting so much pressure on us to recruit someone and I was -- and I hadn't, and I didn't want to, but like then also Keith would say sometimes that, like, Don't you want a good friend of yours to be on this, like, life journey with you?
It's like when it's phrased like that, you sort of think, well, I would like one of my friends on a life journey with me; I just don't want them to have to go through these, like, crazy things that I'm going through. And I think my logic part of the time was that, like, I could protect her and I could make it what I thought it was supposed to be. I know it's so, so ridiculously stupid, but like I thought that maybe I could make -- make -- be the mentor to her that I thought I was gonna have and then I could, like, protect her, which I'm so, so glad that nothing happened.
But I text Allison afterwards and I told her that I had spoken to my friend and that I hadn't wanted to, but I did it so she wouldn't have to punish me.
MS. PENZA: And you said that thank God that that didn't go forward?
MS. PENZA: During cross-examination Mr. Agnifilo asked if the defendant was ever sweet to you. Right?
MS. PENZA: Were there times he was not sweet to you?
NICOLE: Just sometimes he would say things like: You know, well, you're -- you're 29 years old and you have nothing to show for your life. He would say: I'm gonna say something mean right now. You're 29 and you have nothing to show for your life. That's just where you're at right now.
MS. PENZA: Did he also call you prideful and defiant?
MS. PENZA: He told you that he had to destroy you?
MS. PENZA: And you had to ask permission for a lot of things with the defendant?
MS. PENZA: Permission to stay at the library?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, can we just not have leading?
MS. PENZA: Did you have to ask permission to cut your hair?
MS. PENZA: Oh.
THE COURT: Don't lead the witness.
MS. PENZA: Understood, Your Honor.
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Did you have to ask permission for anything related to your body?
NICOLE: So I had to ask Allison for permission to cut my hair and she told me to ask Keith for permission or she asked Keith for me, I don't remember, but I got permission from both of them.
MS. PENZA: Okay. You asked for your collateral back at some point?
MS. PENZA: Did you ever receive your collateral back?
MS. PENZA: In the exhibit, do you remember seeing that your request for collateral had been forwarded?
MS. PENZA: Did the defendant ever contact you about your collateral?
MS. PENZA: Has he ever tried to return your collateral?
MS. PENZA: Do you think that's sweet?
MS. PENZA: Just a couple more questions.
BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Nicole, would you ever have had sex with the defendant if he hadn't been your grand master?
MS. PENZA: And when you left DOS did you ever consider having sex with the defendant again?
MS. PENZA: No further questions.
MR. AGNIFILO: I have nothing.
THE COURT: All right, the witness is excused. You may stand down.
(Witness steps down and exits the courtroom.)
JUROR: Your Honor, can I use the restroom?
THE COURT: Yes, we are going to take our break now.
All right, we will take our afternoon break.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits.)
THE COURT: All right, everyone may be seated.
Will the defense retrieve the screenshots, please?
Did you want to --
MR. AGNIFILO: It doesn't have to be on the side.
THE COURT: Fine, go ahead.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, we were presented with a number of exhibits for the next -- I think for the next witness. We are just going to need a little bit of time, not a lot of time. Since we have a break now, we might be able to just do it over the break just to go over them because I think we are going to have objections to some of them.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, that's fine. I think we can -- as long as there won't be an objection. This witness is going to testify about the device that these documents were seized from. A different agent is going to actually publish the documents.
So we can discuss with the defense, as long as there's not going to be an objection down the road that they weren't introduced through this witness, we can seek to introduce them later as being from that device. So we will speak about it.
THE COURT: All right, let's take 15 minutes. All right, thank you.
(The defendant exited the courtroom.)
(Judge NICHOLAS G. GARAUFIS exited the courtroom.)
(Recess taken.)
(In open court - jury not present.)
(Judge NICHOLAS G. GARAUFIS entered the courtroom.)
(Defendant entered the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Do we need to have a discussion?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, we think we've worked it out. We're not going to do anything with this witness, and by the time the next witness comes that's actually going to put these in to publish them, we will have had more time to look at them. So I think that solves it.
THE COURT: Oh.
MS. PENZA: So there won't be any objection with the next witness --
MR. AGNIFILO: Correct.
MS. PENZA: -- that these were not retrieved from the device that this witness is going to testify about.
MR. AGNIFILO: That' right.
MS. HAJJAR: 45 minutes, Your Honor, or less.
MS. GERAGOS: A few questions on cross, I imagine. I haven't heard the direct yet, but I imagine just a few questions.
THE COURT: Okay. And then you are ready with the next witness after that?
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, actually, may I just have one minute to make sure that that's fully -- can I just run outside to make sure that that's coordinated?
Thank you.
(Pause.)
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
The Government may call its next witness.