2.Michael Weniger — Cross/Redirect/Recross (Part 3)
641 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good morning, Special Agent Weniger.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Good morning, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to ask you some questions. First, I know we've been speaking through the trial, but I'm Marc Agnifilo, I'm obviously representing Keith Raniere.
I'm going to ask you some questions. If I ask you a questions that's unclear to you, please feel free to ask me to repeat it or put it differently. I'm happy to do that.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Understood. Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say you saw a tremendous amount and you recovered a tremendous amount of audio tapes and videotapes of Keith Raniere speaking about various subjects, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's true, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think that you're the case agent, so you heard some of the testimony in the trial that there were something like 2,000 modules of about two hours each, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say only a small portion, probably less than one-tenth of one percent, of everything that he said has been played at this trial?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's true.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, incidentally -- and I'm just asking -- do you know who that was speaking in that last videotape?
Do you know if it was Dani Padilla or Marianna or do you not know?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I was under the impress it was Marianna.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair to say you're not sure?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I'm not certain.
MR. AGNIFILO: Couple questions. I want to go back. I want to go sort of through the order that you went through in the direct. And I'm going to only refer to things that are in evidence either as Government Exhibit 1401, which I think is the oakhaven e-mail account, or the box that we're talking about that was recovered at Nancy Salzman's house, which is 204, and I think the copy of the box is 204-A. So, I'm just going to ask you some questions about certain things that are in those materials.
You spoke a lot in the beginning of your testimony yesterday about Canaprobe; do you remember all that stuff?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you -- this is 1401. It's a particular page of 1401, ending 820.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is all in evidence, so we can show it to the jury.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, Judge.
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So, this is an e-mail from Richard Marier. And I think you were saying yesterday Richard Marier is the principal of Canaprobe?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And he's sending this to Clare and to the oakhaven e-mail, and the oakhaven e-mail is Kristin Keeffe?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's my understanding.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the date of this is March 11, 2009, at 12:14 p.m., right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you have an understanding that Canaprobe kind of came onboard a little bit before this, like maybe January, February, 2009?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I think it actually may have been a little earlier than that, 2008.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know when in 2008, ballpark?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: Here, what we have here is we have Marier, on behalf of Canaprobe, sending this to Clare and to Kristin at her e-mail address. And it looks like that they're doing certain searches and there's an invoicing for that, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, we're going to look at some of the specifics. The first one we're going to look at -- and this is from the box, it's a copy -- let me give you a little more scope on this. Here we go.
So, you saw a number of these general types of reports, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: For a variety of different folks, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this one is in particular for Rick Ross, who testified at the trial here, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I believe Rick Ross Institute.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, Rick Ross Institute.
And I think what you said on direct examination yesterday is you had reason to believe that a lot of the information in these reports from Canaprobe was false.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, I just want to go through this in a tiny bit more detail.
First of all, on top it says: This is an interim report from April 30, 2009.
Correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: You understand this to be report from Canaprobe, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And just so the jury understands what's happening is Canaprobe gets hired, and then Canaprobe is asked to do kind of financial and background investigations into a number of different people, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's my understanding, yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And here's the report on Rick A. Ross Institute, and I just want to go through some of the entries here.
What they are claiming is that the Rick A. Ross Institute has bank accounts in Nassau, Bahamas; do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I see it, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: In Monte Carlo, in Switzerland, another one in Switzerland, Grand Cayman in Cayman Islands, Jersey, and then in Hong Kong.
And I don't think the Jersey here is New Jersey, it's a different Jersey, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I'm uncertain.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right.
Do you have every reason to believe that this information is false, that the Rick A. Ross Institute does not have bank accounts in Switzerland and all these other places?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't know. I'm unaware.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know, I mean -- when did you start being an FBI agent? What year?
MICHAEL WENIGER: 2011.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know if in 2011 and after it was possible to even get information out of Swiss banks?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't know.
What I can say is that there was a point in time where it was acknowledged by Clare Bronfman that the information was not accurate.
MR. AGNIFILO: At some point, I think you're aware, Clare Bronfman sued Canaprobe, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: In Quebec?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: In the Province of Quebec, in Canada, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the nature of the suit was that Canaprobe was giving false information in the reports that it was getting paid for, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: But here, we're talking -- so, this is specific to the Rick Ross Institute. And what Canaprobe is telling NXIVM in this report is that the Rick A. Ross Institute has all these foreign bank accounts in these different locations, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's what it appears.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, that's what it's saying. Okay.
This is part of the same, in the same box of material.
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Here, we have Richard Marier to Kristin and still talking orders.
And we're talking now the spring of 2000; right -- may 25, 2009 rather, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think what you said yesterday is that the point of contact, Clare Bronfman was paying the bill for Canaprobe; right, that's what your investigation showed?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's what the e-mail accounts and the invoices reflected.
MR. AGNIFILO: But the point of contact for Canaprobe was Kristin at the oakhaven account, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's fair to say, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And there's a lot of back-and-forth e-mail traffic between Richard Marier and Kristin at the oakhaven account, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes. Occasionally, Clare Bronfman's account would also be -- she would also be a recipient of e-mails, but only occasionally.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, it was -- as a general point of contact, it was Kristin with an occasional e-mail to Clare, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And fair to say -- tell me if this is a fair statement -- that when Clare was brought in, it usually tended to do with an invoicing or some aspect of payment?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's fair, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: We're going to look at another Rick Ross Institute report.
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And here we have Rick Ross Institute, and then at the bottom, about two-thirds of the way down, there's an indication of a beneficiary, Ross Corp.; do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, what this is basically saying -- and we're not talking about whether it's true or false at the moment, we're just saying what this report is reporting -- that the Rick A. Ross Institute has an account in UBS in Jersey that is in the name of Ross Corp.; do you see that there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Great. Thanks.
Then there's a follow-up. This is a report that comes from Canaprobe to Kristin Keeffe by e-mail. It's from October 1, 2009, and I'm just going to read a certain part of it.
It says: Mr. Ross is currently and has, it appears, at least since the early 2000s, been engaged in a cartel of individuals who are laundering profits by removing them from U.S. jurisdictions and secreting them in under unknown tax-sheltered zones.
It goes on to say -- I'm now looking down here -- it I'll read the whole thing.
Up until the late 1990s, Mr. Ross was in a poor financial condition and heavily in debt. In 2001, Mr. Ross founded his institute, which almost from its inception was engaged in coerced deprogramming for which Mr. Ross was found liable in civil actions.
Let me just stop there for a second. Just to be clear, there's no indication that Mr. Ross is involved in international money laundering, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Again, I don't believe so. I don't have any evidence of that.
MR. AGNIFILO: But that's what this report that's sent to Kristin is telling her, that Canaprobe has found this international money laundering being committed by Rick Ross. That's what the report says.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then down here, it says: Mr. Ross' background and expertise as a cult deprogrammer appears to be merely a fabrication and his expertise seems to be most profound as a confidence man.
I think yesterday at one point you said on direct examination that it seems like Kristin Keeffe at times is paranoid.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I said that there was a sense of paranoia within the community.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I think we were looking at a specific e-mail written by Kristin Keeffe.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's right. Let's look at this.
This is from October 1, 2009, and Canaprobe is submitting to Kristin a report that says these things that we just talked about, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's true.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, just in terms of who we're talking about, we're talking about Kristin Keeffe -- this is Government Exhibit 1822. Let me see if I can find what I'm looking for here.
I think this is the part we talked about yesterday. I just want to read the whole thing with you.
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MR. AGNIFILO: It starts at the bottom, from August 27, 2009, and it's from Kristin to Keith; do you see that there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: It says: Had a weird night. Got a little nervous for three reasons. First, quote/unquote knocks wood painters happened to be here --
Going to the next page.
-- beginning the 27th and going through the week. Coincidence? They are painting the windows so they can study everything in our house. They are doing 3 Flintlock too. They started this morning.
Second, there are was a strange old man quote/unquote walking by our house last night but with dress shoes on. What was weird too was how he never looked at Gaelyn and I. We were in the front yard and being really noisy. I've never seen him before, and I know all the neighbors by sight. I then even drove my car by him and slowed it to look at him, and he didn't turn his head to look at me.
Also, yesterday there was a big black pickup in front of our house. It looked like he was taking a phone camera picture. I immediately went outside and he kept explaining and explaining and explaining how he was lost. I thought he went way overboard.
Last night, I slept with the lights on, the interior doors open, and all the windows shut. I had nightmares of people trying to get in until about 3 or 4 a.m.
How's it going there?
This is from Kristin to Keith, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the same Kristin that's getting all these e-mails from Canaprobe, so let's go through a little bit more of these e-mails.
At one point yesterday, I think you talked about Carlos Rueda; do you remember?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember who he was?
MICHAEL WENIGER: A psychiatrist that was cited in some articles that were -- cited in some articles that negatively sort of showed the defendant and NXIVM. Also, if I recall correctly, he saw some people who had left the NXIVM community as patients.
MR. AGNIFILO: And, so, this is a report from Canaprobe sent to Kristin on August 10, 2009, and it's in regard to this person that you just referred to, Carlos Rueda, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it has some account information here. Safra Bank, you see that here, Safra Bank with a bank account number?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that's Safra Bank New York, then there's another, Safra Bank Luxembourg. And the account beneficiary that Canaprobe sends to Kristin Keeffe for Carlos Rueda is Rick Ross, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, here is Canaprobe sending information to Kristin Keeffe that this person, Carlos Rueda, who, as you said, was critical in some articles of NXIVM, has this financial relationship in the form of an account beneficiary with Rick Ross; right, that's what this says?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It does, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And, again, you have no reason to believe that's true.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't have any reason to believe that Rick Ross has -- is an account beneficiary in a Safra Bank Luxembourg account to Carlos Rueda, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I know we just never took that next step in identifying and actually trying tracking down the...
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. You can't say it's false because you're saying you didn't investigate it yourself, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Also, you have no indication that Rick Ross has any -- being the case agent in this case, you have no indication that Rick Ross has any financial relationship of this nature with Carlos Rueda, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: Another person that Canaprobe sends a report to Kristin on is Frank Parlato, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Another person is Senator Charles Schumer, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And, again, just so it's clear, there's no indication, in fact, that sitting Senator Schumer has bank accounts at UBS Geneva, UBS in the Bahamas, UBS in Luxembourg, UBS in Hong Kong, UBS in Panama, Safra Bank in Geneva, Safra Bank in Luxembourg, Safra Bank in the Bahamas, there's no indication of any such -- other than this report, there's no indication that anything like that is remotely true, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I simply don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: But what we know is that Canaprobe is sending Kristin Keeffe this information in this report about Senator Schumer.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Peter Skolnik, was Peter Skolnik Rick Ross' lawyer in the civil litigation?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's my understanding, yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, here's a report from Canaprobe sent to Kristin about Peter Skolnik. And what we see here, the account beneficiary is Rick Ross.
So, what Canaprobe is telling Kristin Keeffe is that Rick Ross' lawyer Peter Skolnik is in a financial relationship with Rick Ross in the form of this bank account that's in Euros with the beneficiary being Ross Corp., correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It appears so, yes.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO: (Continuing.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point in the records that you reviewed, did you see sort of a breakdown, you know, sort of a table made either by Kristin or by somebody else that was in these records?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Are you referencing the e-mail accounts or are you referencing the box or --
MR. AGNIFILO: In the box, and I think it was also in the e-mail account?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I do recall --
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: -- this and there were a number of spreadsheets and tables just like you referenced.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Just for the sake -- because it's easier to go through it all.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: So, here, Birthright Holdings. Birthright Holdings, was that believed to be -- well, let me back up a second.
Edgar Bronfman is associated with something called Birthright; is that right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Remind the jury a little bit about that.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't have a full understanding, but I think it's in relation to young people in the Jewish community that are in the United States to have an opportunity to go back to Israel. That's my understanding, but I could be wrong.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's fine.
MICHAEL WENIGER: And I think the charity is set up to allow that to happen.
MR. AGNIFILO: Got it. What we see here is that the account beneficiary Birthright Holdings has a benefactor, according to Canaprobe, of Rick Ross; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So what this would suggest to anyone receiving it, like Kristin Keefe, is that Edgar Bronfman has this connection, financial connection, to Rick Ross; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It would appear so.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And then there are a number of other individual things listed here; Birthright Holdings, you see the beneficiary is Ross Corp.; Birthright Holdings, Ross Corp. There's a number of these. Go to the next page. Joe O'Hara is someone that we discussed during the course of the trial; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And remind the jury again, who is Joe O'Hara?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Joe O'Hara at one point was a contractor for NXIVM. He left at a certain point and -- not on amicable terms, on poor terms.
MR. AGNIFILO: Got it. And one of the things that Canaprobe told Kristin Keefe in the form of these reports and that sheet is that Joe O'Hara has a financial relationship to Rick Ross; right? That's what this table indicates.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: We talked about Mr. Rueda earlier; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And here in the table it indicates that Rueda has a financial relationship with Rick A. Ross in that Luxembourg bank account and Ross Corp. in Geneva; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Skolnik has a financial relationship with Rick A. Ross and Ross Corp.; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's --
MR. AGNIFILO: Accord to go this information.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you said it -- is it District Attorney Soares? Am I saying it the right way?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't know. He was the Albany County district attorney.
MR. AGNIFILO: Soares, I'm not sure how to say it myself, is listed here. He's listed as one of the people that Canaprobe sent a report on; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: He's listed in this chart and information requested was listed.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so what Canaprobe indicated was that he has a financial relationship with Ross Corp. as well; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you mentioned Mr. Touretzky yesterday in your direct testimony. Do you remember that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And just remind us who that was again?
MICHAEL WENIGER: He was a professor, I think, at Carnegie Mellon at one point. He's written some critical material on NXIVM and the defendant.
MR. AGNIFILO: What Canaprobe is telling Keefe is that Touretzky has a relationship with Rick A. Ross Holdings in Luxembourg; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, the box that was found as Nancy Salzman's house, it had a number of handwritten notes in it; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It did, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you have reason to believe that those were Kristin Keefe's notes?
MICHAEL WENIGER: If you're referencing one in particular -- I do think that there was material in the box that was Kristin Keefe's.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you some individual ones and my question for you is whether you think that it's Kristin Keefe's.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And, again, this is all from the box that was recovered from Nancy Salzman's house. It's just one particular page. Did you ever -- take a look at it.
MICHAEL WENIGER: (Reviewing.)
Is there more to the document, sir?
MR. AGNIFILO: I can -- is that too small? Can you read that okay?
MICHAEL WENIGER: No. That's perfect.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: (Reviewing.)
Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: And, fair to say in the materials that were in this box were many, many, many pages of handwritten notes; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And this is just one such page of maybe hundreds of pages of handwritten notes?
MICHAEL WENIGER: There was a lot.
MR. AGNIFILO: And here -- you'll agree with me, here there's a reference to, it looks like, Marier, Richard Marier?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And there's a reference to Michael Sutton; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And these are notes, "Do we want to hire Marier for any of our cases?" Do you see that there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: "What can O'Hara do or give to the authorities?" Do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: "Follow up with Bob." Do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if there was a lawyer for NXIVM at the time named Bob Crockett?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then here there's, "Ask Nancy, Lauren, Karen, Dawn, Kathy, admin, everyone, about these records." Do you see all of that there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I'm just going to go to the next page.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: You should feel free to read any of this you like. I'm going to direct your attention just to a couple of things.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Should I --
MR. AGNIFILO: If there's something else that catches your attention and you want to say something about it, that's fine too, but I'm just going to ask you the highlighted parts.
MICHAEL WENIGER: (Reviewing.)
Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, here, I mean, "What about subpoenas, hedge funds in New York that was in touch with O'Hara, depose them about Ross? Ask FU e-mails or records." Do you see that there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Here it says, "Get Verizon subpoena and letter production of Ross calls"; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then, "Subpoena Fed Ex, DGL, UPS for shipments by Ross"; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you have an opinion as to whether this is Kristin Keefe's writing?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I can tell you I don't know. There were certain e-mails in the box related to Keith and she did appear to have control of some of the documents in the box.
MR. AGNIFILO: Because there many, many of the Oak Haven e-mails in the box; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes and I think there was also handwritten notes related to Gaelen.
MR. AGNIFILO: And just to be clear, Kristin and Keith have a child, Gaelen?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
THE COURT: Say that again.
MR. AGNIFILO: Kristin and Keith Raniere have Gaelen and I think you said that's your understanding?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: And here I think that we have reference to Interfor Productions. Do you see that there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then I think the reference to, "Check with Kathy. When did we have trouble with the WA IRS?" Do you know if that stands for Washington state?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, I think it was discussed during the trial.
MR. AGNIFILO: And, so, fair to say there's ongoing notes, handwritten notes of different things, legal things, you know, related to Rick Ross and the Suttons and other legal matters that are in handwriting that are in this box that was recovered from Nancy Saltzman's house?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's fair to say.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was there anything in the box that indicated that, aside from the fact that it was inside Nancy Salzman's house, that it was Nancy Salzman's stuff in the box?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Not that I can recall, but I will say that I haven't kind of been back in there for a little bit of time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at some point Kristin Keefe left the community?
MICHAEL WENIGER: She did.
MR. AGNIFILO: And she took Gaelen with her?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if when she left the community she just left the box at Nancy's house?
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Your investigation led you to conclude that much, if not all, of the stuff in the box was Kristin's; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't know if I can fairly say that. I can say that she was on the e-mails and Gaelen was referenced in the note. I will also say she was a legal liaison for NXIVM for a period of time.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you reach a conclusion that of the handwritten notes that are in the box they were written by the same person?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I did not reach a conclusion.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you reach a conclusion that it was more than one person?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Frankly, I don't -- I would have to kind of look. I wasn't looking for that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Fair enough. I'm just going to look at a few more handwritten entries and we're just taking a small sample of everything that's in the box.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Here on top it's the Sunday, December 26th. It doesn't have a year. "Work log seven hours." It says, "Review Crockett memo again"; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then down here it says "Two hours writing up response to Bob's memo, get computer fixed"; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Does it seem to be the same handwriting as the other handwriting that we've looked at? I can show you representative samples. I know you're not a handwriting expert. I'm really asking for your opinion.
MICHAEL WENIGER: They do look similar.
MR. AGNIFILO: There's a handwritten entry asking if somebody knows Roger Stone. Do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: A handwritten entry, "Where do the Suttons live in Florida"?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I can't read that bottom.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think it says, "Where do the Suttons live in Florida compared to Rick Ross phone records?"
MICHAEL WENIGER: Okay.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: More stuff about Rick Ross and then we're going to move on to something else in a little bit.
"Ross called somebody many, many times." Do you see that there. It looks like Jeff Jacobson possibly?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: "What about all of Ross' KY calls? Who is this person with these phone numbers?" Do you see all that there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. "Subpoena Ross' AZ phone," Arizona phone, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. Now, also in the box there are e-mails to Kristin from this -- it seems like an investigation company called Pallorium. Do you remember seeing these?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I do.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you have any understanding of what Pallorium did or what their involvement was with Kristin Keefe?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I believe in the e-mail address reflects the last name Rambam. Steve Rambam -- I believe Steven Rambam is a private investigator and -- I apologize, your specific question?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay. That was exactly it. You know, did you have -- did you have familiarity with Pallorium and you said Steve Rambam was a private investigator for Pallorium?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Correct, and did work for NXIVM.
MR. AGNIFILO: Correct. And, so, here is Steve Rambam from Pallorium sending an e-mail Kristin Keefe; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this seems to be in regard to the situation of the woman who went missing in Alaska; right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And we have Kristin Keefe being in contact with Pallorium and Pallorium, in the form of Steve Rambam, writing back saying, "Public records, research, media research, contact with detachment AST," whatever that is, "draft letter to Anchorage Police Department, calls to state troopers, called to Soares, police departments." All of these different tasks that Pallorium seems to be doing and reporting back to Kristin Keefe on; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then we have another Steve Ramdam e-mail to Kristin Keefe from October 15, 2009 and it's basically -- Ramdam is advising that during October 8, 2009 to October 12, 2009 an investigation was conducted in Key West, Florida, mentioning a few places. "This investigative activity was conducted in order to pursue specific leads provided by you to this office indicating that Kristin Snyder, possibly using the alias Kaye Snyde, recently received mail or packages at this USPS location and that Kristin Snyder was a possible holder of lockbox or another post off box at this location." Correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's what it says, correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: And, so, this is basically Kristin having e-mail correspondence with Steve Ramdam in regard to the Kristin Snyder situation; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And these different leads that it seems like Kristin is directing Ramdam to take; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It's not clear from the e-mails where the direction is coming from. Obviously the results are coming back to Kristin Keefe.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. One more of these Ramdam e-mails. There's -- Ramdam says that, "As discussed on 8 October 2009, an attempt was made to conduct investigations and interviews at the 'Caribbean guest house' in Key West, Florida." Right? And that's Ramdam to Kristin Keefe; correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I think I actually discussed this a little bit yesterday in terms of the -- the message or the e-mail back and forth with Keith in regards to the resort-hopping -- I think they referenced the resort-hopping friend.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MICHAEL WENIGER: And I suspect that they may have been referencing Kristin Snyder.
MR. AGNIFILO: More investigation. It seems to be the same subject, but this time in Palm Springs, California?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Now, one of the things that was in the box that you found at Nancy Salzman's house was this document, which is in evidence as part of that exhibit. This is an affidavit from Michael Sutton and I'm just going to read portions of this to you. It says, "Michael Sutton being duly sworn deposes and says" --
THE COURT: I'm sorry.
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: It's in evidence.
THE COURT: I have a question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure, Judge.
THE COURT: Is this an executed affidavit?
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I'm going to get -- it's not. It's not. It was in Kristin Keefe's box.
THE COURT: If you are going to speak to it, you need to say there is no county indicated and he did not sign it if he did not sign it.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's fine.
THE COURT: This is a draft.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
THE COURT: I did not hear the word "draft."
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay, Judge. I am going to get to the whole thing, I promise.
THE COURT: No, no. I want to start with what it is and make clear what it is not and then you can read it. Read it if you like.
(Continued on the following page.)
(Continuing.)
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, the Government does not want it offered for the truth of Michael Sutton's statements.
THE COURT: Well, if it is a draft, it doesn't mean anything in terms of the truth because he is not verifying it to be true, so we should not be discussing it in that context.
MR. AGNIFILO: Very good, Judge.
THE COURT: If you want to read the draft that was in the file, you can do that.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: Sure.
EXAMINATION CONTINUES BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So this is the third page, right?
Let me just show you the whole thing and then we'll talk about it.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the cover. This is the first page.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, and it's in regard to NXIVM Corporation against The Ross Institute, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And then there is a second page.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you see the whole thing there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then there is a third page, and that is the entirety of this document, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It appears so, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this was in the Kristin Keeffe box, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I think -- I mean I'm assuming you're right. I don't specifically recall this document.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
And so what it says is: I am the son of defendants Morris and Rochelle Sutton, the Suttons. My family, the Suttons, are prominent members of the Orthodox Sephardic Jewish communities of Brooklyn, New York and Deal, New Jersey.
The Sephardim first emigrated to New York from the Middle East, Syria in the early 1900's. In 1935 the head rabbis of our community passed a declaration known as The Edict. The Edict is a rabbinical threat of complete religious, familial and social non-acceptance of a marriage and/or a child born outside of the community. To my knowledge, no other Jewish community in the world has such an extreme rule. The Edict has been affirmed by the leading rabbis of every generation of our community from 1935 through 2000 -- through to 2006.
At the time I was introduced to NXIVM, I was a partner and vice president at Lollytogs, an international clothing manufacturing conglomerate headquartered in New York City founded by my father, Morris Sutton. Also at this time my daughter, whom I had secretly fathered outside the Sephardic community with my non-Jewish former girlfriend, lived with me part-time and was supported by me. I informed my parents of my love for my daughter and my desire to spend time with her and be the best father I could be. My father expressed a strong disagreement with my decision. The stress of living double lives and the guilt of hiding a daughter I adore put me in a state of poor physical and mental health.
Noticing my decline, a friend recommended me to a NXIVM training as a resource to help me resolve my conflicts. I applied for and took a NXIVM three-day training course and discovered that NXIVM's courses are designed to build ethics and honesty in both individuals and the workplace. I enjoyed the classes and became an avid student. Not long after, my health and outlook on life improved and I began to publicly disclose that I had a non-Jewish daughter. My father refused to recognize his granddaughter. He insisted I pay off my daughter's mother and never see her or my child again. I refused.
I, in turn, informed him of my decision to leave the family business, that I would be pursuing other business ventures, including a more enhanced level of participation with NXIVM. My father would not accept this. A son born within our community is groomed his whole life to take his place within his father's business. The loss of my respect -- the loss of respect -- I'm sorry -- the loss of respect my father felt that I -- that I and the family would engender as a result of my decision was completely intolerable to him. He blamed NXIVM and threatened to use his considerable resources to destroy NXIVM if I did not change my mind.
As part of this effort, defendant Rick Ross was hired by my parents. On several occasions he requested from me copies of NXIVM's confidential program materials. I informed him that the materials were confidential and that I could not provide that to him.
My half-sister is defendant Stephanie Franco. Stephanie informed me that she would like to attend the NXIVM training. I was thrilled, believing her support could win over the rest of the family and change my parents' minds about my non-Sephardic child and support my decision to leave the family business.
At the time, I believed Stephanie worked solely as a social worker in private practice and as a part-time professor at Rutgers University. I was not aware, nor did Stephanie inform me, of her position as a corporate trainer with NXIVM competitor with Taibi Kahler Associates. Had I known this, I would not have and could not have, cosigned to endorse any of Stephanie's enrollment contracts for NXIVM's programs given their strict noncompete and confidentiality clause.
Right, that's what this says?
THE COURT: Is there a question?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's that?
THE COURT: Is there a question for the witness?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, Judge. Yes.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And now, you had some familiarity with the Ross litigation, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: A minimal amount, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you heard -- and you heard Rick Ross testify, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I definitely heard some of his testimony.
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the things that he testified to was that, in fact, Michael had this situation with a child who was born of a woman not in the Sephardic community, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the things he testified to --
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Next.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: -- was that his sister, Stephanie Franco, had provided the materials from the NXIVM training course, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And that was the subject of the lawsuit, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That was, I think, one factor in the lawsuit, yes. One issue.
MR. AGNIFILO: One of the things in the box found at Nancy Salzman's apartment -- house, rather, is this letter from the attorneys Tompkins Maguire.
Do you see that there?
(Exhibit published.)
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Before we go to that, have you ever seen the signed affidavit that we reviewed?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Just a moment ago?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't -- I don't believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, okay. All right, do you know if that affidavit was signed by --
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't know, I'm uncertain.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you ever looked in the case file at Document 137 --
MS. PENZA: Objection.
THE COURT: Is this in evidence?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's not in evidence, but it's on Pacer.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may we have a sidebar, please?
(Sidebar held.)
(Continued on the following page.)
(The following sidebar occurred outside the hearing of the jury.)
THE COURT: All right, I am not allowing Mr. Sutton to testify by affidavit. So that is where we're going.
Get on to the next matter. I am not allowing it. It is not happening. So just get going.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
(Sidebar concluded.)
(Continued on the following page.)
(In open court - jury present.)
EXAMINATION CONTINUING BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So this letter from Tompkins Maguire makes reference to certain subpoenas.
Do you see that, there?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if these were subpoenas for Rick Ross' Verizon Communications cellphone, T-Mobile and other cellphones, cellphone data?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't recall specifically.
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is, again, from the box that we've been talking about.
This is the case we're talking about, the NXIVM against Morris Sutton, Rochelle Sutton case, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And you see subpoena to produce documents, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: To Verizon in this case, Verizon Communications?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Do you know if NXIVM got Rick Ross' cellphone data from a subpoena?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't know definitively. I can say that there were phone records in -- in the box. I don't recall if they were Mr. Ross' or not.
MR. AGNIFILO: Not a problem.
Fair to say inside the box was a number of documents related to the Kristen Snyder disappearance in Alaska, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of them was this.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: And this is a portion of what seems to be a document filed in connection with that missing person's file?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Could you just give me one moment? I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: Take your time. Take your time. Let me zoom in a little so you can see it easier. Here you go.
(Pause.)
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir, sorry about that.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's all right.
All right; so, basically, this seems to be a page of a report from the missing person's file in the Alaska case with Ms. Snyder, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And it discusses here that there was -- you know, she was acting in a -- I'm just going to read part of it.
At approximately 7:00 p.m. her roommate/domestic partner, Heidi Clifford, concerned because of Ms. Snyder's recent bizarre behavior, discussions of suicide, laying in snow to kill herself, contacted the Anchorage Police Department to report Ms. Snyder missing. Ms. Clifford also contacted a friend of Ms. Snyder, Kenneth Powers, and they began a search of the Anchorage area. Ms. Snyder's vehicle was located near Miller's Landing in Seward, Alaska at 2120 hours on February 7th, 2003. A note inside the vehicle indicated that Snyder was planning to commit suicide, ending with quote, "No need to search for my body," end quote.
On the morning of February 8th, 2003 Miller's Landing Resort personnel discovered a storage shed containing kayaks and gear had been broken into and an old kayak was missing. The storage shed was close to where Snyder's vehicle was located. On February 8th, 2003 and February 9th, 2003 a large search effort was conducted in and around Resurrection Bay. The search consisted of Alaska State Troopers, Seward Area Fire, EMS volunteers and the U.S. Coast Guard, Forest Service law enforcement, the Seward Police Department, Civil Air Patrol and friends of Snyder, many of whom are part of an organized search and rescue team as part of the Nordic Ski Club. After two full days of active searching, no sign of Ms. Snyder was located. CAP flight was accompanied on 2/4/03 with negative results.
Right, that's what this says?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did you find in the box all sorts of documents related to this situation?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: For instance, there was a document that had to do with the high and low tides in Resurrection Bay in those materials?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I think that was part the police file.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, right, right.
And it seemed like the -- a large portion, if not all, of the police file was in these materials, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes. We -- we, ultimately, did get the entire file, but it was -- the vast majority of the documents from the file that the Alaska State Police had were also in that box.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I think on -- I think during the Government's direct case there was evidence of someone named Alana Chenoa traveling over the border from the United States on Christmas Eve 2004?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Ashana Chenoa.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, Ashana Chenoa, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Was there any indication that Kathy Russell crossed the border based on any official records?
MICHAEL WENIGER: There was an indication based upon her credit card statements that she traveled to the -- the border.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And there's -- there's a credit card purchase in a town in the United States not too far from Rochester, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I'm sorry, say that one more time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Sure. I think there's a credit card purchase from a place called Clifton Springs, New York?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Clifton Springs, New York, tell me if this is right, is sort of on Route 80 on the way to Buffalo, but in New York State?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It's on the high -- off the highway, I'm not quite sure which --
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
MICHAEL WENIGER: -- but it's the route out -- out to Niagara Falls.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
And now, the document that you had for Ashana Chenoa showing that she crossed the border on New Year's eve, 2004, do you remember what kind of document it was?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It was -- well, I'm not quite sure what kind of document. We received that information from Immigration and Homeland Security Investigation.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And did you receive any similar document for Kathy Russell?
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, in addition to the Kathy Russell credit card report putting her in Clifton Springs on Christmas Eve 2004, there was also records indicating that Kristin Keeffe was in -- in the Niagara Falls area on Christmas Eve, 2004, is that correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's correct; yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And I am going to show you -- this is the way we got it.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, hold on. Let me see if I can zoom in there a little bit. Hold on.
All right, do you recognize these documents?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I've seen them.
MR. AGNIFILO: And these are -- these are things that you uncovered as part of your investigation, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: They were things that I saw during the course of my investigation, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And here (indicating) it appears -- it appears that these are similar receipts, and this one is a little bit easier to read, so I am going to read this one first then we'll go to the other one.
This is a Niagara Falls Days Inn Denny's Restaurant in Niagara Falls, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the date on this one is -- it's -- do you know who wrote that in?
MICHAEL WENIGER: 12/19, I do not.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think it's 12/29.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And there is a total there, but that's from, if this date is correct, that's December 29th, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And now there's another receipt, which seems to be similar to the first receipt, although it's not as clear on top, that there's handwriting there from 12/24, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I can't really make it out.
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me show you another document. Hold on one second. Bear with me one second.
I want to show you, this was also in -- I think this was part of the Government's case.
So we have Denny's Restaurant, 12/24, do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Denny's Restaurant, 12/29, do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yep.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And just in terms of the amounts, the Denny's Restaurant from 12/24 is $48.74, do you see that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the Denny's Restaurant from 12/29 is $101.49, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So going to what we were just looking at before, the dates of the two Denny receipts.
You know that one says 12/29, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Handwritten in, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. And that's $101.49?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then the other one is handwritten 12/24, right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: $48.74?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
And did this lead you to conclude that Kristin Keeffe was, at least, in Niagara Falls on Christmas Eve of 2004?
MICHAEL WENIGER: We believe that -- that Kristin Keeffe was in Niagara Falls.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. I think on direct examination you talked about this document, which is a $525,000 check; correct?
(Exhibit published.)
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: One second.
(Pause.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: To Marianna, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And have you ever -- have you ever seen the -- do you know what an I-526 file is?
MICHAEL WENIGER: No, I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
Do you know if there -- have you ever seen the visa file that was filed on behalf of Marianna?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I -- I don't recall.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: We may have gotten it. We have his working the case with us --
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: -- so I'm just not certain.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
Do you know if there's anything improper about this, about this gift?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I -- I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And talking -- getting back to Canaprobe for a second, do you know if there's anything legally improper about the Canaprobe investigation?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I think that there -- I mean in terms of acquiring confidential banking information for -- for other individuals, there are -- I believe, I'm no longer a practicing attorney.
MR. AGNIFILO: That's okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: -- but my understanding is that that could potentially fall within to a criminal statute, potentially.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know what the rules are in Quebec?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I do not.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Canaprobe was in Quebec?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Canaprobe was, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Give me one second, Judge.
THE COURT: Sure.
(Pause.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Special Agent Weniger, I think you spoke yesterday and I think you said that NXIVM sometimes went after people in lawsuits and criminal investigations that were sort of frivolous based on because they were their enemies, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I -- I do know that they had enemies, and I do know that they were very litigious.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Some of the people that they -- that they focused on were, in fact, convicted of crimes, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's true.
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. AGNIFILO: And one person --
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MS. PENZA: Objection, and move to strike.
THE COURT: Sustained. And the answer is stricken.
Next.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: So not all of these litigations were frivolous, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: In terms of the outcome -- when you say -- I guess I'm trying to understand, civil, criminal, what are you asking?
MR. AGNIFILO: Let's talk about civil, civil ones first.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Not all of the civil litigations that they engaged in were frivolous, correct?
MR. AGNIFILO: There were computer hackings done, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: (No response.)
MR. AGNIFILO: In fact, that were done against them?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't necessarily know if that's correct. I don't --
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know who John Tighe is?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I -- yes, I know that -- that name.
MR. AGNIFILO: And John Tighe hacked into the NXIVM computer, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't believe -- I don't believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know if he pled guilty to that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't.
MR. AGNIFILO: You don't, okay. In state court in the --
MS. PENZA: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. He doesn't know.
Next.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: There were lawsuits against someone named Yuri Plyam, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, sir.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Clare won that lawsuit, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: My understanding is that it was successful, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: I think you were saying, getting back to Canaprobe for one second, I think you said at one point there was a second investigation firm that some of the Canaprobe information was being shared with.
Do you remember?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I -- I'm sorry.
MR. AGNIFILO: No. Do you remember testifying to that?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, that's -- that's what it appeared by virtue of the e-mails, kind of this layered system.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did it appear to you that at some point the people in NXIVM realized that Canaprobe was sending them false information?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if they were checking that false information with this other investigation firm?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's what it appeared.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if that's what led to the conclusion that, in fact, Canaprobe was giving them false information, which led to Clare Bronfman suing them in Quebec?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I believe that's right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I think I have nothing else, but let me just check.
(Pause.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I am told I have nothing else.
Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: All right, thank you.
Redirect.
MS. PENZA: Just very briefly, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PENZA:
MS. PENZA: Hello again, Special Agent Weniger.
MS. PENZA: Just a couple questions.
I am just showing you, Mr. Agnifilo showed you this interim report on Peter Skolnik, is that right?
(Exhibit published.)
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: And this was on August 27th, 2009?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That's what the -- the -- yes, that's what it reflects.
MS. PENZA: Okay. And so I am just showing you, we went over this yesterday, Government Exhibit 1822. And I am just showing you on August 27th, 2009, this was the document we looked at that was the correspondence between Keith Raniere and Kristin Keeffe, is that right?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: And the defendant sends Kristin Keeffe an e-mail that says: Anything, with a sad face?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: And then it says: There is a charity called Sinai -- Kristin Keeffe writes back: There is a charity called Sinai Charities. Peter Skolnik is a very well-known attorney in some circles. Although it's Ross and his corps that are his bread and butter at the end of the day, even if there are efforts on behalf of charities in between.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: And then the defendant, and this is the same day that Peter Skolnik's information is provided to Kristin, correct?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: And then the defendant writes, August 27th, 2009, and I'll just go to the middle one: Is it that Skolnik apparently does some work for the Sinai Charity in the chain of events?
And then again, still on August 27th: Yes, Skolnik did work for Sinai, which was sponsored by his client.
And then is it the defendant who writes: Might be a fascinating question to ask about contributions to Sinai if smoke twitches?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: So based on this, what can you say about whether the information from Canaprobe was being conveyed from Kristin Keeffe to the defendant?
MICHAEL WENIGER: It certainly appears that it was.
MS. PENZA: And other than just this document, did there appear to be a back-and-forth between the defendant and Kristin Keeffe?
MICHAEL WENIGER: There did.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MS. PENZA (Continuing):
MS. PENZA: Do you have any evidence that Kristin Keeffe ever acted alone, without the Defendant's permission?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Could you ask the question one more time?
MS. PENZA: Do you have any evidence from this case that Kristin Keeffe ever acted alone, without going through the Defendant?
MR. AGNIFILO: Object to the form of the question.
THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.
MS. PENZA: Do you know -- based on your investigation, do you know whether Kristin Keeffe ever acted without going through the Defendant?
MICHAEL WENIGER: The Defendant was the individual that everyone went to for purposes of permission, to include within the legal department and the legal liaison, Kristin Keeffe being the legal liaison.
MS. PENZA: You talked with Mr. Agnifilo about Kristin Keeffe's paranoia.
In the course of your investigation, have you had any evidence that the Defendant was paranoid?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes. There were others within the community that would regularly report to him the observance of different vehicles and things of that nature. We saw it in the WhatsApp chat that was mentioned in prior testimony and, also, we heard from a number of witnesses that that was pretty much the regular occurrence.
MS. PENZA: And I think you testified already to this, but when did Kristin Keeffe leave the community?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I believe 2014.
MS. PENZA: After she left, have you reviewed any communications between the Defendant and others about any of the individuals that we've talked about?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I'm sorry, ask that question one more time, please.
MS. PENZA: After Kristin Keeffe had left, so after 2014, are there still communications between the Defendant and others about some of the individuals that we've looked at?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Oh, absolutely.
MS. PENZA: And just quickly showing you what's in evidence as -- and that would include who?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Toni Natalie, Barbara Bouchey, Kristin Keeffe. I mean, essentially all of the individuals that were -- that NXIVM sought banking information.
MS. PENZA: And continued throughout?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, continued after Kristin Keeffe left.
MS. PENZA: When the controversy about DOS came to the forefront, was there still discussion then about other individuals being involved?
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes, there was this kind of conspiratorial thought.
MS. PENZA: Can you explain that a little bit?
MICHAEL WENIGER: There was an effort -- my understanding is there was an effort made by the organization to somehow tie those that had spoken out about DOS to the prior defectors that were outspoken.
MS. PENZA: Did you have any evidence of that sort of conspiracy?
MS. PENZA: And just showing you this e-mail -- we looked at it yesterday -- this is from 2015?
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: So, where Clare writes --
THE COURT: I'm sorry, what's the exhibit number?
MS. PENZA: I'm sorry, your Honor. Government Exhibit 1480.
THE COURT: All right.
(Exhibit published to the jury.)
MS. PENZA: When Clare writes: Also good to know our opposition is Steve Herbits, who is very close to Clinton, D'Amato, and the Jewish mafia. His power is not to be taken for granted. That is why we are here. He and his connections are Goliath.
MICHAEL WENIGER: Yes.
MS. PENZA: As of 2015, was Kristin Keeffe still within the community?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I don't believe so, no. I think she left 2014.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Recross?
MR. AGNIFILO: One second.
THE COURT: Sure.
(Pause in proceedings.)
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: I only have a couple of questions for you, Special Agent Weniger.
Do you know if for a period of time there was a paternity petition pending in Surrogate's Court filed by Keith Raniere because Kristin had taken Gaelyn?
MICHAEL WENIGER: I recall something about that, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you know if that was pending for a period of time, for many years?
MICHAEL WENIGER: That, I don't know. I'm uncertain.
I do know that --
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, I ask that the witness not continue.
THE COURT: You can ask the next question.
MR. AGNIFILO: If you don't know, I don't want you to speculate. If you don't know, that's fine.