4.Rick Alan Ross — Direct (Part 1)
496 linesMS. HAJJAR: Thank you, Your Honor. The government calls Rick Ross.
COURT CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
(The witness is duly sworn/affirmed by clerk.)
COURT CLERK: Please have a seat.
Please state and spell your full name for the record.
RICK ALAN ROSS: Rick Alan Ross, R-I-C-K, A-L-A-N, R-O-S-S.
THE COURT: You may inquire.
MS. HAJJAR: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: Good morning, Mr. Ross.
RICK ALAN ROSS: Good morning.
MS. HAJJAR: How old are you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Sixty-six.
MS. HAJJAR: And where were you born?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Cleveland, Ohio.
MS. HAJJAR: Where did you live growing up?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Phoenix, Arizona.
MS. HAJJAR: What do you do for a living?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I'm the founder and executive director of the Cult Education Institute. I do intervention work to help families get their loved ones out of groups called cults and I'm the author of the book, "Cults Inside Out: How people get in and can get out."
MS. HAJJAR: How did you initially get involved in the subject of cults or other groups?
RICK ALAN ROSS: A nursing home where my grandmother lived when she was in her 80s was infiltrated by a controversial group. They sought jobs on the paid professional staff. They targeted the elderly. My grandmother was confronted. I found out about it and it drew me in to become an anti-activist and a community organizer in Phoenix.
MS. HAJJAR: Did you create a website which is now called The Cult Education Institute?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes. I originally launched a website as an archive of information about destructive authoritarian groups, controversial groups, many called cults, in 1996, and it became a very large database.
MS. HAJJAR: In 1996, what was that database called?
RICK ALAN ROSS: The domain name entry point was RickRoss.com.
MS. HAJJAR: At some point did you sell that domain name?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes. When the rapper Rick Ross became so famous, about 50 percent of my traffic and bandwidth was being consumed by people that wanted to hear Rick Ross rap. So I sold the domain name and the portal became CultEducation.com, and I changed the name from the Rick Ross Institute to the Cult Education Institute.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you explain to the members of the jury what kind of materials you publish on your website in the database you're describing?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It would include articles about various groups and leaders and subjects. It would include court documents, research papers, just an array of research material that's available to the public. Anyone can use the site. And there's also a large message board, public, where people can post their comments if, if they are former members of a group, affected families. There are approximately 150,000 entries that have accumulated on that message board.
MS. HAJJAR: And in terms of the content of the materials in the database, even though the name has changed over time, has the general contents that you publish remained the same?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No. The contents have remained the same and I would think that pretty much all of the articles and material that was originally posted and archived in 1996 is still there. It just simply grows and it's under constant construction.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you name some of the individuals and groups that you've written about on your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Charles Manson, Moses David Berg, the leader of Children of God, L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Church of Scientology, and then there's a huge section on clergy abuse. Any clergy person that I have, I've accumulated a very large database on that has been sued, that has been arrested for sexual abuse. There's a huge subsection on polygamist groups that have gotten in trouble with the law, particularly regarding child abuse and labor violations.
And there are many groups that are not necessarily criminal or negative, but that because there are myths about them and misinformation, the Institute has articles that kind of bring clarity to that. For example, witches and Wicca or Satanism or the Free Masons, which there are been many conspiracy theories about which have turned out to be bogus. The Institute has a lot of material to disabuse people that might believe conspiracy theories about these groups.
MS. HAJJAR: Are there common characteristics of the groups or individuals that you choose to publish about?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes. Typically, the groups have authoritarian leaders that have absolute control over their followers with little, if any, meaningful accountability and, second, that they have been accused of exercising undue influence over their followers and, finally, that to some degree, they have been accused and there have been allegations or criminal procedures against them for exploiting and doing harm to their followers in some way, shape or form.
MS. HAJJAR: Have you been sued by individuals or organizations about which you posted materials or articles?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes. I've been sued five times by different organizations that sought to have all the information at the database removed that was there about them.
MS. HAJJAR: Are you familiar with an organization called NXIVM or Executive Success Programs?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Were you sued by NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: When?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I believe in 2002.
MS. HAJJAR: What were you sued for?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I was sued over the articles of two doctors, a forensic psychiatrist and a clinical psychologist who wrote reports about what was then called Executive Success Program based on the notes of their course curriculum, their incentives, and these reports were critical of Executive Success Programs and, subsequently, I was sued in an effort to remove those reports from the database.
MS. HAJJAR: And do you recall what the lawsuit was alleging, what was the basis for the lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Defamation was one claim, I believe, and then also copyright infringement, trade secret violation. There were a number of claims made. I think there was a claim made that somehow I was in competition with Executive Success Programs and that that was a claim.
MS. HAJJAR: Was that lawsuit resolved against you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, it was. It ended with the lawsuit being dismissed on a motion for summary judgment and it never went to trial.
MS. HAJJAR: When was it dismissed?
RICK ALAN ROSS: In two thousand -- I believe in December, I'm thinking, 2017.
MS. HAJJAR: And so the lawsuit was pending from when it was initiated in 2002 or thereabouts until 2017?
RICK ALAN ROSS: The lawsuit went on for 14 years. It began in New York. It was originally filed in the Albany area and then at the time, I lived in New Jersey as did some of my co-defendants and so the lawsuit was then re-filed in New Jersey and continued for 14 years.
MS. HAJJAR: During the course of the lawsuit, did you, did there come a time where you met Keith Raniere?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Do you see him in the courtroom today?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you identify him by where he's sitting or an article of clothing?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He is the man with the maroon sweater.
THE COURT: All right. Let the record indicate that the witness has identified the defendant.
MS. HAJJAR: Thank you.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, just backing up a bit, how did you first learn about NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: A family approached me concerned about loved ones that were involved in the Executive Success Programs.
MS. HAJJAR: And who approached you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Morris and Rochelle Sutton.
MS. HAJJAR: And approximately when was that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I believe that was in 2002.
MS. HAJJAR: Prior to 2002, were you aware of NXIVM? Had you ever heard of it?
MS. HAJJAR: And what happened after your you were contacted by the Suttons?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I met with them. I talked about their concerns. They were very concerned about their adult children. I believe there were three that were involved with Executive Success Programs, later known as NXIVM, including a daughter and a son-in-law and they retained me to work for them.
MS. HAJJAR: And what did you do after they raised their concerns to you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I -- they also hired a private investigator because little was known by me or really available information about this group and so they retained a private investigator. The investigator found information about Keith Raniere, about his company called Consumer Buyline and the lawsuits filed against Consumer Buyline by, I think, as many as 20 Attorney Generals in various states. And also they, the private investigator obtained some literature disseminated by Executive Success Programs describing what they did and how they did it to some degree. So it was rather general. It certainly indicated the type of group it was and what they were engaged in.
THE COURT: Can I just ask a question to clarify something?
MS. HAJJAR: Of course.
THE COURT: In what capacity did they retain your services?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They retained me as a private consultant with the idea that we would do an intervention or a series of interventions to get their adult children out of Executive Success Programs.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: Did you, in fact, later conduct such interventions?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Did you -- based on these early, the early research that you did or the materials that you reviewed, did you form an impression of NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And what was that impression?
MR. AGNIFILO: Object to the form of the question, Judge.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, do you agree to perform interventions every time you are asked to do so?
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. What do you do in order to decide whether or not to agree to undertake an intervention?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I look at the group in question, I may cooperate with a private investigator, I gather information to determine if the group warrants any type of intervention and I listen to the family members and I do my own independent research.
MS. HAJJAR: And in this case, and with respect to NXIVM, did your, did you take any steps to determine whether or not you would agree to conduct the intervention that the Suttons requested of you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What was that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, I did research on Executive Success Programs and I came to the conclusion that it was a kind of human potential seminar selling group and that they engaged in what has often been called large group awareness training, or an LGAT, and I had been sued by just such a group, Landmark Education, that has a seminar called The Forum. And I recognized very quickly that Executive Success Programs was very similar to Landmark Education and I, I realized why the family was concerned, because I had received complaints about Landmark Education for years and some of those complaints mirrored what the Suttons were concerned about and I agreed to take on these interventions and be retained by them.
(Continued on next page.)
EXAMINATION CONTINUES BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: Did you attempt to conduct an intervention with the Suttons' son, Michael Sutton?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Was it successful?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, it failed.
MS. HAJJAR: And can you describe to the jury what happened?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, the Suttons planned this intervention to take place in Florida during the holidays in December. And they brought Michael, they asked Michael to join them at a beach club in Boca Raton. And his brother, Jeffrey, also was there with his wife.
And then the Suttons introduced me to Michael. And then we started to have a discussion, which is what an intervention is, is a discussion. And they would talk about their concerns, why they had brought me in.
I would talk about LGAT, Large Group Awareness Training. The familiar patterns that I saw in Executive Success Programs that paralleled other groups that I had dealt with. I talked about coercive persuasion techniques, influence techniques, thought reform; and, again, compared that in parallel to some of the practices and training that I saw happening with Executive Success Programs.
And, of course, in the process of the intervention Michael would speak at length, and he would talk about his experience. And it was then that I learned that Keith Raniere was -- had a special title of Vanguard. That they celebrated his birthday during Vanguard week.
And the group took on more significance, in the sense that it was more -- it became clearer to me that this was a personality-driven group defined by a -- a leader, and a leader's philosophy. And it became eerily reminiscent of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard, and the personality-driven nature of that group, which was based on Hubbard's writings and his philosophy.
And so this discussion went on with Michael for days, I think two or three days. And he was very courteous, very reasonable, but he kept talking on his cell phone with Nancy Salzman, he would -- he would call her or she would call him back. And even in the presence of his parents and myself, he would go -- he would talk to her and she would coach him.
And it became obvious to me how much power and control the group had over Michael. And eventually, Nancy Salzman and -- persuaded him to discontinue the discussion; and eventually, to not agree to have any more discussions with his parents about their concerns or -- or look at any research material or anything.
And at that point, the intervention effort ended. And it was a failure.
MS. HAJJAR: Where did these discussions take place?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They initiated in Florida in Boca Raton, but they continued at the Suttons' home in New Jersey in Elberon. And then later also in Manhattan, at the Suttons' business offices in Manhattan.
MS. HAJJAR: And during these discussions, who was physically present?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Morris Sutton and Rochelle Sutton and Jeffrey Sutton. And then some of the meetings that occurred at the business offices in Manhattan were -- were just Jeffrey Sutton, myself, and Michael Sutton.
MS. HAJJAR: What is the point of an intervention?
RICK ALAN ROSS: The point of an intervention is to stimulate critical thinking, to get an individual to reflect and think about what they're involved in. And to look at the dynamics of the group, the methodology of the group, and try to understand how the group works, and how the group may have undue influence over the individual and how that may have been accomplished.
And -- and -- and what the motivation, perhaps, may be, if the group is making demands on the person. And, in particular, if the group is making extreme demands, hopefully, the person will reflect on whether or not it's really worth it for them to comply, for them to continue.
And so often, in my experience, when people become involved in groups like this, they're -- they're making decisions in a bubble and they really aren't getting any outside feedback. They're not really percolating with their critical thinking and they're just relying, instead, on reenforcement from other people in the group. And they become socially isolated.
So the idea of the intervention is to open that up --
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I'm sorry. I'm going to object. Can we have a quick sidebar?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
(Sidebar held.)
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(The following sidebar occurred outside the hearing of the jury.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: -- I think a juror wants your attention, Judge.
MS. PENZA: Judge, the juror is waiving.
(Sidebar interrupted.)
(In open court - jury present.)
THE COURT: Did someone raise his hand? Just the machine. Thank you. We got it.
(Sidebar resumed.)
(Continued on following page.)
(The following sidebar occurred outside the hearing of the jury.)
MR. AGNIFILO: I objected because I think we're well into the realm of expert testimony with the witness's last very long answer.
We did not get expert witness notice of this witness, and my understanding is he was going to testify to his lawsuit. But for him now to be giving opinions, as these are clearly expert opinions that he's been giving. He's never been noticed as an expert.
THE COURT: All right, I understand.
MS. HAJJAR: We're not offering him as an expert, Your Honor. He is a fact witness. He has strongly held views, which I'm sure Mr. Agnifilo will have opportunity and will cross-examine him about. But he -- these -- his opinions precipitated what he did, which led to the lawsuit.
So we're not offering this opinion as expert testimony, and we can qualify that or move on, but we're not -- that's not what the purpose of the testimony is.
MR. AGNIFILO: Whatever they classify it, this is a person speaking as an expert. He's giving his opinion about -- about, you know, how different groups operate.
He's clearly not in the realm of things that he's seeing and observing, in terms of things that are in front of his face. He's talking about opinions in a general way with his breadth of research. It's clearly expert testimony and we object.
THE COURT: Why don't you focus your questions more directly on the issues in this case?
MS. HAJJAR: Yes.
THE COURT: You can do it that way.
MS. HAJJAR: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And, I mean I am happy to give an instruction that this is not an expert witness, that his testimony is based on his experiences, but I don't think that that makes any sense at this point.
MS. HAJJAR: I agree.
THE COURT: But you will let me know.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, Judge. Thanks.
THE COURT: Thank you.
(Sidebar concluded.)
(Continued on the following page.)
(In open court - jury present.)
THE COURT: All right, let's continue.
EXAMINATION CONTINUING BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, how many interventions have you participated in, in your career?
RICK ALAN ROSS: More than 500.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. Are you often hired by family members of the person for whom you agree to conduct an intervention?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, it's typically the parents, but it could be the adult children concerned about a parent. It could be a spouse, it could be a boyfriend or a girlfriend.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, you testified that with respect to Michael Sutton, Mr. Sutton remained polite throughout, although the intervention was not successful.
Were there times where the intervention did not go so amicably?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Not from the standpoint where -- Michael Sutton may have commented at times that he didn't appreciate the intervention, that he would like to spend more time playing tennis, more time enjoying the beach, and less time talking with me and his parents about Executive Success Programs. And that became -- he became more so after his conversations with Nancy Salzman.
MS. HAJJAR: And in the past, Mr. Ross, was there an occasion where you were civilly sued as a result of an intervention that you conducted?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. Can you tell the jury just briefly about that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I was retained by a woman around 1990, her name is Kathy Tonkin, and she was concerned about her two minor children, one of whom she claimed had been sexually abused in a particular group.
And she wanted to get her family out of the group. She had six children. And she left with three of them, but three remained behind and -- and would not go with her and stayed in the group.
And at first, she retained me to do interventions with her two minor children, boys that were -- I think one was 14 and one was, I think, 12 or 13 at the time.
But later, she retained me to do an intervention with her 18-year-old son who had become of legal age. And she hired security, she held her son against his will, and at a safe house. And I agreed to do what has often been called an involuntary deprogramming with her son. It was not successful.
He then called the police when -- when he was let go, you know. At a certain point his mom decided, we are done, we've shared everything we can with her son, Jason Scott. And so we said: You're -- you're free to go. And he called the police and I was arrested. There were security people that were arrested.
After some time, we went to trial. I was found not guilty of all charges.
Subsequently, a lawyer, who is now the lead counsel for the Church of Scientology, Kendrick Moxon, offered to sue me on behalf of Jason Scott. And I was sued in federal court and I lost that lawsuit and a judgment against me was entered for over $2 million.
Needless to say, I went bankrupt. The bankruptcy judge said that the judgment could not be discharged, due to the fact that it was deemed malicious, that I violated his civil rights by holding him, despite the fact that his mother was always present. And she actually had hired me, but she was never charged, nor was she ever sued.
Subsequently, Jason left the group that he was in, that his mother considered to be a cult, and he returned to his mother. And then he contacted me and he said, I want to settle the judgment against you. And the judgment was settled for $5,000, which I gave Jason, on the condition that I provide him with 200 hours of my services.
He had been married in the group and he wanted me to deprogram his wife. He had two children with his wife. And he left the group, but his children remained. And he was in a similar situation, ironically, that his mother was once in. And he wanted me to help him free his family.
That never happened. His wife divorced him and he really lost his family. But the lawsuit and the judgment -- the judgment that came out of that lawsuit was settled in 19 -- I believe it was 1995 or '96.
MS. HAJJAR: Did Jason Scott ever reconcile with his mother, as far as you know?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yeah, he did reconcile with his mother. In fact, I met with them together. And it was -- it was -- it was very difficult for his mother to go through all of that, but she did, and she forgave him for whatever misunderstandings or unhappiness there was between them.
And I decided, as a result of the Jason Scott case and what I went through, that no matter how compelling a family's narrative was or their pleas regarding a particular situation, that I would never again agree to do an involuntary intervention with an adult. That is, someone of -- 18 years of age or older.
Though, I would continue to do interventions, often working with Children's Services, for young people, minor children, under the direct supervision of their legal guardian if they had been extracted from a destructive cult.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, moving back -- when was the Jason Scott intervention, what year was that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: 1990.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. And so moving now to 2002 again, were you -- after the failed intervention with -- with Michael, did you conduct another intervention with his sister?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. Can you -- did you agree to conduct that intervention?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What happened?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, Stephanie Franco came to the Suttons' home in Elberon and we talked with her. She was very amenable. She was very happy, actually, to talk about what were her concerns about Executive Success Programs.
What we did not know was that Stephanie had deep misgivings about the training, that she harbored doubts about what was happening. And so we had a long discussion. And at the end, she decided that she would discontinue any involvement with Executive Success Programs.
MS. HAJJAR: Did Stephanie Franco provide you with anything?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Stephanie Franco had the study notes from the course curriculum, from the program and the training, in a bound -- a binder. And that included notes that were distributed by Executive Success Programs, and also her own handwritten notes regarding her training and -- and -- her comments regarding her training, on how she was feeling and what she was doing.
And she gave those notes in the binder to her brother, Jeffrey. And Jeffrey then gave them to me in order for me to give them to the doctors, so that they could make reports.
At one point, Michael, when he was talking with Nancy Salzman, Nancy Salzman said: Wouldn't it be interesting to get expert opinions on what we're doing, rather than just what I thought?
And so I gave Michael a list of experts, and two of those experts included Dr. John Hochman and Dr. Paul Martin. And so the family thought, let's follow through, following Nancy Salzman's advice, and have reports done by these doctors. And now that we have these extensive notes, the doctors have something to study and -- and come to a conclusion with.
And so I gave the notes to the doctors and they wrote reports. Dr. Hochman wrote one report. Dr. Martin wrote two reports. And then I published the reports on the website that was then called The Ross Institute, which was then RickRoss.com.
MS. HAJJAR: Who retained Dr. Hochman and Dr. Martin?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Morris and Rochelle Sutton.
MS. HAJJAR: And the reports that they completed, they gave them to you to publish on your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, they gave them to me to share with Michael Sutton. And I went to -- with Jeffrey to meet with Michael Sutton, and we tried to encourage Michael to read the reports and consider them. But Michael, at that point, was not willing to do that.
And so the reports, with the permission of the doctors and the Suttons, I published through the website and database.
MS. HAJJAR: Why did you publish them on your database?
RICK ALAN ROSS: My feeling was that Executive Success Programs was a destructive program, and that it was hurting people and that it had the potential to hurt more people. And in the public interest, per the mission statement of the Institute, I made those reports public and put them online, so that anyone could access them and read them.
MS. HAJJAR: What happened after you published the reports on your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I was -- I was threatened with legal action, was one of the outcomes. And then I also would periodically receive calls from people who were affected by the training, thanking me for publishing the -- the reports.
But I think the most immediate thing that happened that -- that was of concern was that I was being threatened with litigation.
MS. HAJJAR: Did you -- how did you respond to those legal warnings?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I consulted a -- attorneys. Attorneys assured me that the claims being made were baseless. Though, they warned me --
MS. HAJJAR: Without going into the discussions with your attorney, did you do anything with respect to the materials posted on your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I -- I refused to remove them from the database. I refused to take them down.
MS. HAJJAR: Were you ultimately sued by NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And where was the lawsuit initially filed?
RICK ALAN ROSS: The lawsuit was initially filed in New York, in the area of Albany.
MS. HAJJAR: Did it later change venue?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Where was it filed later?
RICK ALAN ROSS: In New Jersey.
MS. HAJJAR: Was the lawsuit filed in federal court?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And this was a civil lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Were there other defendants in the lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Who?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Drs. John Hochman, Paul Martin, Morris and Rochelle Sutton, Stephanie Franco, and myself and the Institute.
MS. HAJJAR: And the plaintiff for the lawsuit was?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Executive Success Programs/NXIVM, and I believe -- I don't know if Keith Raniere was actually on the lawsuit, but the issue was copyright regarding his material.
MS. HAJJAR: And that was -- the basis for that were the reports that you had published, the doctors' reports you had published on your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, the claim was that by quoting the study notes, copyright and trade secret violations had occurred, and that they should be taken down.
MS. HAJJAR: And the reports excerpted portions of the materials that Stephanie Franco had provided you with?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, may I show something to the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: I am showing you what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 620.
Do you see that, Mr. Ross?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And what -- do you recognize this exhibit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What is it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: These are the collected notes of Executive Success Programs that were given to Stephanie Franco.
MS. HAJJAR: And were they the same materials that Stephanie Franco later gave to you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 620 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: What is that?
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right, Government's Exhibit 620 is received in evidence.
Publish it to the jury.
(Government's Exhibit 620 was received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: Now, Mr. Ross, is this the same form as you initially saw the materials that were given to you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It's somewhat different. I don't remember it having Stephanie's name on it or -- or the date, in particular.
I -- I remember it -- the notes being in a -- in a black binder that you could open and take pages in and out of, but it's -- I -- I looked at this, and this is the same. It's just a copy in a different binder.
MS. HAJJAR: The materials, themselves, the content is the same?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. I am going to direct your attention to what's marked as -- at the bottom as SF-6 of Government Exhibit 620. I'm going to zoom in a bit.
(Exhibit published.)
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, do you see where the -- it says: "16-Day Intensive"?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you please read the paragraph that follows?
RICK ALAN ROSS: This profoundly transformational experience begins at 8:00 a.m. and goes to 9:00 p.m. virtually every day for the duration. There are lunch and dinner breaks, as well as short breaks between practices or modules. Students don't want to leave at the end of the day!
There is the option of attending this course in five- or seven-day segments. Tuition $7,500. Pre-registration 14 days in advance, discount price $6,000. $1,000 nonrefundable deposit required to reserve. 50 percent total tuition required two weeks prior to start date. Remainder paid first day of class.
MS. HAJJAR: And the top here, this is a -- this is about Executive Success Programs, this page?
RICK ALAN ROSS: "Our school is designed to change" --
MS. HAJJAR: I'm sorry, Mr. Ross, I just wanted to highlight for you that this -- you are reading from a page where the title is "Executive Success Programs"?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MS. HAJJAR: (Continuing.)
MS. HAJJAR: And the remainder of the first few pages of this exhibit contain class schedule and tuition schedules; is that right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That's correct.
MS. HAJJAR: I'm going to turn your attention to what's marked as FS-8 from these materials. Can you read the text that follows post 16-day intensive training program options moving up the Stripe Path fast track?
Can you see that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes. Many of our six-day intensive graduates desire to move up the Stripe Path as quickly as possible, becoming part of our team and spreading this mission. It is our goal to make this process achievable. We want to train you so that you reach your maximum potential and became more effective in working with others. We find that renewing two additional 16-day intensives and participation in the Ethos coaching program (required to move up the Stripe Path) is the optimal strategy in moving up to proctor as quickly as possible.
MS. HAJJAR: And then do you see where it says options for your repeating your second 16-day intensive?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you just read the first bulleted paragraph there?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Register an Ethos coaching program (1800/1440) and enroll three participants in any 16-day intensive (remember, as a result of three -- quote, "three and it's free," you will receive a refund on your 16-day intensive tuition.) "Shadow coach" duties such as food prep, cleaning, supply inventory, chairs, audio/visual, et cetera, will be assigned.
MS. HAJJAR: I'm going to just flip through a little bit of this.
Are you familiar with this context, Mr. Ross, the white sash, yellow sash?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yeah, these are the sashes that denote ranks of the members of the group.
MS. HAJJAR: And so where it says, yellow sash title, apprentice coach, coach, can you read what's under edge qualification?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Edge qualification, two enrollments within four weeks, rank earned within 12 weeks.
MS. HAJJAR: And there are different texts written under one stripe coach, two stripes, three stripes, four stripes and so on?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And then under orange sash, can you read the edge qualification there?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Edge qualification has yellow edge in yellow sash rank no longer than nine months.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. These handwritten notes, do you know what these were?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yeah, this is the handwriting of Stephanie Franco describing her reflections, her thoughts, while she's involved in the training.
MS. HAJJAR: And the materials that are included in this, in what was the binder that you received, some of them have titles: Work and Values, Self Esteem, Honesty and Disclosure, Communication and Being at Cause?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: I want to point your attention to Rules and Rituals, marked SF-00033.
Are you familiar with these pages?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you just read the first paragraph under segment one, Handshaking?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Handshaking is a sign of respect and affords us an opportunity to make direct physical contact with others. We believe that many of society's problems have developed because people have come to view each other as objects rather than human beings. The handshake is a way to greet others in every professional and personal context and is a sign of response in ESP. Here in ESP, we use a two-handed handshake. This conveys warmth and a sense of community. Placement of the left hand denotes rank. Individuals of higher rank place left hand on the top. Individuals of the same rank shake vertically. Lower rank places the left hand on the bottom.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, can you read what the numbers are up here?
RICK ALAN ROSS: 12/2000.
MS. HAJJAR: And I'm going to show you something that's already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 1007.
Do you see that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And at the top, can you just read the numbers here?
RICK ALAN ROSS: 1/2015.
MS. HAJJAR: And looking at the third paragraph, is this also titled Handshaking and has similar content in terms of what's being described?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And the Rules and Rituals material in Government Exhibit 620 that follow, there are certain student notes related to these segments, scripting, and a page entitled Student Self Report; is that right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Flipping to the back of this exhibit, on a page that is marked SF-00329, can you read the top of this document, Mr. Ross?
RICK ALAN ROSS: This is the 12-point Mission Statement by Keith Raniere.
MS. HAJJAR: Are you familiar with the contents on this page?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And were some of these bulleted items quoted in the expert report, in the doctor reports, that you published on your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They may have been. They certainly were reviewed by the doctors.
MS. HAJJAR: Can I show something to the witness alone, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, I'm showing you what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 609.
Do you see that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Do you recognize this exhibit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What is it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It is the report that is made by -- submitted by Doctor John Hochman.
MS. HAJJAR: Is it the same report that you published on your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 609.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 609 is received in evidence.
(Government's Exhibit 609 received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, did this article, report, Government Exhibit 609 become part of the court case, the lawsuit that you've referred to before?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And can you just read the title, please?
RICK ALAN ROSS: A Forensic Psychiatrist Evaluates ESP.
MS. HAJJAR: And what's the date?
RICK ALAN ROSS: February 2003.
MS. HAJJAR: And the author?
RICK ALAN ROSS: John Hochman, M.D.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. And there, under introduction, the reports notes: I have reviewed a manual for a 16-day, ten hours a day, large group awareness training called Executive Success Programs which also calls itself ESP.
Is this, the manual that is referenced here, the same materials that we were just discussing?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And then this is -- this report has several pages, but looking at the bottom of the first page and looking at one example:
Of further concern -- the manual states in italics -- we find our students don't want to leave at the end of the day. Since participants have been experiencing a day scheduled to start at 8 a.m. and to end at 10 p.m., under usual circumstances most participants would be tired and eager to go to see friends and family, to get a night's rest, to prepare for another long day starting at 8 a.m.
Is this paragraph, Mr. Ross, referring to the materials that we reviewed?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And the basis for the lawsuit was these excerpts of material that were quoted from the Franklin material?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: This report is critical of ESP and -- fair to say? Of ESP and all the materials that were -- that we reviewed?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, I would like to show the witness another exhibit marked for identification.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, I'm showing you what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 610.
Do you recognize this exhibit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What is it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It's a critical analysis of the Executive Success Programs Inc., authored by Paul Martin Ph.D., Clinical Psychologist.
MS. HAJJAR: Is this one of the reports that was published on your website that formed the basis of the lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 610 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: No objection.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 610 is received in evidence.
(Government's Exhibit 610 received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: What is the date of this article?
RICK ALAN ROSS: February 12, 2003.
MS. HAJJAR: And this was authored by Doctor Paul Martin?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, the footnotes at the end of this article refer to some ESP materials; is that right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, I just want to look at a few parts of this report. The program spells out a new version of good and bad; this is at the bottom of the second page of Government Exhibit 610.
Here is a sampling from the workshop: When we were little children, we learned bad when someone yelled no or that's bad, stop. We learned good when we were rewarded in some way. This sort of learning is inconsistent and limiting because, in order to have a full understanding of each concept, we would have to examine every example of good and every example of bad.
Now, is this one of these items that's excerpted from the material because of the footnote here that refers to the materials?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And then this -- this writing that follows:
In the course of the program, normal terms such as good and bad are redefined. Good becomes prosurvival and bad counter-survival or destructive of value. Rules, according to ESP, are fear-based and ethics are internalized.
Now that's not taken from the materials, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What follows is the author's report?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, the mission statement that we looked at briefly, I just want to point to one page. This is page four of the article.
Can you read the paragraph starting at number five?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Number five maintains that there is no ultimate victims. What does this mean? How far do we take human responsibility? Is a raped woman somewhat responsible for her rape? Is a battered wife somewhat responsible for her battering? Is an employee subject to a mean, dishonest boss somehow not a victim? Are slaves in some manner not victims? Are those hit and hopelessly crippled by a drunk driver not victims? Are those accidentally paralyzed by the slip of a surgeon's knife not victims? What does Raniere have to say to this? The normal definition of victim, according to the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language is, quote: A person harmed, injured or killed as a result of a crime or accident; 2, a person who is tricked or duped. End quote.
Common observation teaches that there are victims. ESP appears to make victimhood seem as unnatural as sensing the brisk chill on one's cheek on the morning of the first autumn frost.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, where the report says number five maintains that there are no ultimate victims, I'm just showing you again the last page of the binder you were referring to.
And does that text appear here: There are no ultimate victims?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, that's part of the 12-point mission statement by Keith Raniere.
MS. HAJJAR: And so this report excerpted that small portion, but the remainder of the paragraph was critical of this piece?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, I would like to show something to the witness alone.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: I'm showing you what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 611.
Do you recognize this exhibit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What is it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It is titled: Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria of Thought Reform, as applied to the Executive Success Programs. It was written by Paul Martin, Ph.D., Clinical Psychologist, and it was published on the Institute website February 12th, 2003.
MS. HAJJAR: Was this one of the reports that were published on your website and formed the basis of the lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 611.
MR. AGNIFILO: I do object, Your Honor.
Oh, I'm sorry, this is the second -- I don't object. This is the second of the reports that were part of the lawsuit, that's fine.
THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 611 is received in evidence.
(Government's Exhibit 611 received in evidence.)
(Exhibit published.)
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: This is the same author, Mr. Ross, Doctor Paul Martin, the same author of the other article that we just looked at?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, Doctor Martin authored two reports.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. Do you know who Robert Jay Lifton is?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Who is he is, generally?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Robert Jay Lifton is a psychiatrist who taught at Harvard Medical School and John Jay School of Law. He wrote the book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, which was published in 1961. And he is the author of I think an important paper, Cult Formation, that was published in Harvard in 1981, denoting the core elements of the destructive cult. Lifton's book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, remains a kind of seminal benchmark book that's a study of how, through coercive persuasion techniques, an individual can be drawn into a situation of undue influence. Lifton specifically studied POW's that were held by North Korea during the Korean conflict, and he interviewed them and that formed the basis of his study of thought reform that ultimately was the book published in 1961.
MS. HAJJAR: And this report, does it cite to and in other words involve part of Robert Jay Lifton's books and ideas?
RICK ALAN ROSS: The book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism has a chapter, chapter 22, that lists eight criteria by which Lifton says that if those criteria are evident in a program, they are using thought reform techniques. And he lists those eight criteria and explains them, and he says that if at least six of the eight are evident in a group, in its dynamics, in its training, a thought reform program is ongoing and evident.
MS. HAJJAR: And so in Doctor Martin's report, where it begins with milieu control and all of these topics here, are these references to the -- to the eight factors that you just referred to?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Those are, in fact, the eight criteria that Lifton lists in his book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. They are the criteria that he would evaluate any group or program to establish whether it does or does not use thought reform.
MS. HAJJAR: I just want to look at one of these here. This is Section 4, it's called The Cult of Confession, and I would just like you to read this paragraph starting with "serious and often not so serious sins".
RICK ALAN ROSS: As serious and often not so serious sins are defined by the group, are to be confessed either privately to a personal monitor or publicly to the group at large, Lifton, quote:
Confession is serious beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expression to the point of becoming a cult in itself. There is the demand that one confess to crimes one has not committed, to sinfulness that is artificially induced, in the name of a cure that is artificially imposed. Such demands are made possible not only by the ubiquitous human tendencies toward guilt and shame, but also by the need to give expression to these tendencies. In totalist's hands, confession becomes a means of exploiting rather than offering solace for these vulnerabilities. The assumption underlying total exposure is the environment's claim to total ownership of each individual self within it. The cult of confession makes it virtually impossible to obtain a reasonable balance between worth and humility.
MS. HAJJAR: The paragraph you just read, Mr. Ross, does this relate to or quote from Lifton?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: But the paragraphs that follow, are these portions that are excerpted from the materials we reviewed, the Stephanie Franco materials?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And so that upon completion of the mission statement, all recite, Thank you, Vanguard, as tribute to its author, and it says Rules and Rituals, 12/2000, page four, is this what follows, after this first paragraph, references to ESP?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And did that become the subject of the lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And number six, Loading the Language, can you read that paragraph, please?
RICK ALAN ROSS: The group develops a jargon in many ways unique to itself, often not understandable to outsiders. This jargon consists of numerous words and phrases which the members understand, or think they do, but which really act to dull one's ability to engage in critical thinking.
Lifton, quote: The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought terminating cliche. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any idealogical analysis. Totalist language then is repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon. Prematurely abstract, highly categorical, relentlessly judging, and to anyone but its most devoted advocates deadly dull. In Lionel Trilling's phrase, quote: The language of non-thought.
MS. HAJJAR: And the parts that follow that paragraph, Mr. Ross, are they also excerpted portions of the materials from Stephanie Franco?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, they're examples that are cited from the material by Paul Martin, linked to what Lifton calls loading language.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, at some point, were you contacted by a writer for Forbes magazine?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And what happened when you were contacted by the -- by the reporter?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He said that he was going to do an article about executive coaching, executive seminars, training of executives, and that he -- and that he wanted to explore that area and write an article about it. And he wanted to know what groups I was aware of that did that type of training and offered those type of seminars, and I gave him the names of groups such as Landmark Education, Executive Success Programs and others.
MS. HAJJAR: And was the Forbes magazine article in fact published?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Was that magazine article referenced in the lawsuit that was filed against you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I believe so.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MS. HAJJAR: (Continuing)
MS. HAJJAR: Let me just show you what's marked --
MS. HAJJAR: For identification, Your Honor.
MS. HAJJAR: -- as Government Exhibit 608.
THE COURT: 608?
MS. HAJJAR: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. For identification.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, do you see this exhibit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Do you recognize it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What is it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: This is the article that became a cover story for Forbes magazine titled "The Cult of Personality" that was published on October 13, 2003 and written by Michael Freedman, the reporter that contacted me.
MS. HAJJAR: The government offers Government Exhibit 608 into evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: We object.
THE COURT: Sidebar.
(Continued on next page.)
(The following occurred at sidebar.)
THE COURT: Okay. The objection is?
MR. AGNIFILO: It's unduly prejudicial, a Forbes article, and I don't know why, how that advances the ball for the jury. It's totally prejudicial and irrelevant. So it's a 403 basis and relevance basis.
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. HAJJAR: It's not prejudicial. We're not offering it for its truth. What we're offering it for, a few things, is that Rick Ross is quoted in this magazine article, and Edgar Bronfman, as saying that ESP is a cult, NXIVM is a cult, and this precipitated the entire, whatever happened after that that we've heard testimony about, efforts to install a key logger on Mr. Bronfman's computer, the idea of Rick Ross and Mr. Bronfman taking down NXIVM and ESP. It came because of this article and that's important to establish, Your Honor, and the time frame as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: I don't see why that should make the article be a piece of evidence. I've been saddled many times with having to have a document that's not been entered into evidence that I have to ask questions about and I think that's appropriate for this as well.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, I don't know why this is considered unduly prejudicial. There's a description of Executive Success Programs. It's not too dissimilar from the testimony we've heard. Counsel hasn't identified any part of it that appears prejudicial. I'm just not sure what that is.
MR. AGNIFILO: I mean, to have an article say that it's a cult I think is unnecessary and prejudicial. We have a witness who's giving his, you know, testimony. We don't need it from an article.
MS. HAJJAR: We're not offering it for the fact that it is a cult.
MS. PENZA: This is one of the subjects of the box. Michael Freedman is one of the people who there was, there was banking, banking information was obtained upon. Like, these are the -- I just wanted to raise that with you.
MR. AGNIFILO: They can elicit those facts.
MS. HAJJAR: But this -- the jury should be able to see the fact that, in fact, Bronfman was quoted as saying, I think it's a cult. This precipitated all the things that followed. We heard snippets of testimony from witnesses that they were under the impression that this, this was a big deal for defendant, this was a big deal for NXIVM and ESP and this is the article. Once more, it was filed in the lawsuit. It's filed as part of the public filings in Rick Ross's case as part of the damages that NXIVM purportedly sustained as a result of this, of what Rick Ross said and others said.
MS. PENZA: There was testimony about boxes of these being brought in to the NXIVM center when this came out.
THE COURT: What do you mean, boxes?
MS. PENZA: Like, they bought many, many copies of this. This was a huge deal. Even, Your Honor, with Special Agent Weniger, I'm going to be introducing e-mails from 2003 following this article with Clare Bronfman that show the, like, beginning of the end of this never ending saga about Clare Bronfman. This is a key piece of evidence.
THE COURT: I'll allow it with a limiting instruction.
(End of sidebar conference.)
(Continued on next page.)
(In open court.)
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 608 which is a Forbes magazine article from 2003 is admitted into evidence over objection with a limiting instruction that it is not offered for the truth of the matters asserted, but in order to establish the steps that were taken by those interested in and involved with the issues in this case.
All right. Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: Thank you.
(So marked.)
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: So, Mr. Ross, directing you to the first part of Government Exhibit 608, the title of the article, can you read it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: "Cult of personality."
MS. HAJJAR: Sorry, Your Honor. May I publish it to the jury?
THE COURT: Of course. Okay.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you read the title, please?
RICK ALAN ROSS: "Cult of personality."
MS. HAJJAR: And it was published in Forbes magazine on October 13, 2003?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And is this the cover of the article?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, turning your attention to the last paragraph of this first page, can you read starting from "Detractors"?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Detractors say he runs a cult-like program aimed at breaking down his subjects psychologically, separating them from their families and inducting them into a bizarre world of messianic pretensions, idiosyncratic language and ritualistic practices. "I think it's a cult," says Bronfman. Though he once took a course and endorsed the program, he hasn't talked to his daughters in months and has grown troubled over the long hours and emotional and financial investment they have been devoting to Raniere's group. One daughter, Clare, 24, has lent the program $2 million at 2.5 percent interest. The senior Bronfman says. (She denies this.)
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, do you recall how this article became part of the lawsuit that was filed against you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't recall specifically, but I think it was alluded to.
MS. HAJJAR: And were you alluded to in this article?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I was quoted.
MS. HAJJAR: Okay. And I'm going to turn your attention to the end, the last paragraphs here where the article says: The family hired Rick A. Ross, a Jersey City, New Jersey specialist in cults to intervene to no avail. And there's a description of the lawsuit and references to Stephanie Franco.
This was information about the events you just described, Mr. Ross? These were included in the article that form the basis of the lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, you testified that the lawsuit against you lasted for 14 years?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Was it costly for you?
MS. HAJJAR: Why not?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I was represented by a team of lawyers pro bono including Peter Skolnik who came from the law firm of Lowenstein Sandler in New Jersey, in Roseland. Also, Douglas Brooks, a practicing attorney in the Boston area. Public Citizen which is an advocacy organization in Washington, D.C. also helped as did the Berkman Center of Law at Harvard University and another lawyer, I can't recall his name, briefly helped in the area of Albany, New York before the lawsuit was transferred to New Jersey.
So I was very fortunate to have a team of pro bono lawyers working for free because they believed that there were First Amendment issues, freedom of speech, freedom to criticize, and they decided that this was something that they wanted to help with and for years, they helped and they never charged me a penny or even collected any money from me for their costs.
MS. HAJJAR: Were the other defendants in the lawsuit also represented pro bono without cost?
RICK ALAN ROSS: The pro bono team did cover Dr. Paul Martin. They -- and they covered me and the Institute. They did not cover the Suttons who spent a great deal of money defending themselves over a period of years. They did not cover Stephanie Franco who spent money covering her legal costs over the years. And they did not cover John Hochman who was in California and who -- I'm not quite sure how John covered his legal fees. For a while, he worked, he was working for the University of California as a teacher and some of his legal costs may have been borne by the school. I'm not quite certain, but I know that the pro bono team did not cover John Hochman.
MS. HAJJAR: Now, at some point, Mr. Ross, were you contacted about your personal financial information?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Can you explain that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: A man by the name of Joseph O'Hara that was once associated with Keith Raniere contacted me and then a reporter for a newspaper called Metroland in the area of Troy and Albany contacted me. His name is Chet Hardin. And they told me that --
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Yes. That's an objection as to what they told him?
MR. AGNIFILO: What's the question?
THE COURT: Is there an objection?
MR. AGNIFILO: There is an objection.
THE COURT: As to what they told him?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's right.
THE COURT: Yes. That is sustained.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, well, I'll try a different way.
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, were you provided with anything by these individuals?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What were you provided with?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They provided me with copies of my bank statements and phone records that were private.
MS. HAJJAR: And --
THE COURT: Had you requested those from them?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. HAJJAR: Did they communicate to you where the banking information was from?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Objection, Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
RICK ALAN ROSS: That private investigators hired by NXIVM had obtained my private banking records and my private phone records.
MS. HAJJAR: Did you come to learn that a company called Interfor had been hired by NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Did you file a counterclaim against Interfor in a lawsuit that you've been testifying about?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: And was it, in part, related to the obtaining of your banking information?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Had you previously known about Interfor?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: What happened?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I was contacted by Interfor and they said that they represented and were working with a mother who was concerned about her daughter being involved with Executive Success Programs and that she wanted my help. And they arranged for a meeting at their offices in Manhattan and I met the head of Interfor, Juval Aviv, and I met a woman who said she was a mother of a NXIVM participant. Interfor said that they were working with her to help her. She then retained me, signed a fee agreement, gave me a check for a retainer for my services, and her hope was to do an intervention, she said, to get her daughter out of NXIVM.
MS. HAJJAR: What did you later come to learn about that intervention, proposed intervention?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That it was all faked, that the mother was acting and she was not really a mother of a NXIVM participant, that Interfor was, in fact, working for NXIVM and that the whole thing was a setup.
MS. HAJJAR: Did any -- did this intervention go forward?
MS. HAJJAR: And did this interaction with Interfor become part of your counterclaim in the lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think it was alluded -- I think it was alluded to, yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, I have no further questions for this witness.
THE COURT: Cross-examination.