5.Rick Alan Ross — Cross/Redirect (Part 2)
502 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon, Mr. Ross.
RICK ALAN ROSS: Good afternoon.
MR. AGNIFILO: My name is Marc Agnifilo. I represent Keith Raniere. I'm going to ask you some questions. If I ask you a question that you do not understand, ask me to rephrase it and I'll do that. Okay?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Okay.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you know who Kristin Keeffe is?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Who is it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Someone who was once involved with NXIVM and who was closely associated with Keith Raniere.
MR. AGNIFILO: They had a child together, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That's what I've been told.
MR. AGNIFILO: What role did Kristin Keeffe play, to your knowledge, in this bit with Interfor that you just described for the jury?
RICK ALAN ROSS: My understanding is that she was involved and that she helped NXIVM and Keith Raniere and did work for them as an assistant regarding some of their activities which would include Interfor.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. You have no idea what Kristin Keeffe and Keith Raniere did or did not talk about, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I did not witness any of their conversations.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, getting to the Sutton family situation, how many individual times did you have interventions with Michael Sutton?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, we had -- we met in Boca Raton, Florida, and that would be for two or three days. Then we later met at the Sutton's residence in Elberon, New Jersey. That would have been for a day, possibly there were two meetings. I know there was at least one. And then we also met at the company offices, the Sutton's company, in Manhattan and that was with Jeffrey Sutton, myself and Michael Sutton. So there were different meetings at different days at different locations.
MR. AGNIFILO: And in preparation for the first intervention, the one in Boca Raton, Florida, did you learn certain things about Michael Sutton's situation in his family?
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did you learn that he had a daughter?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, not before the intervention.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you learn that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: During the time of the intervention, there was a point where he brought that up and I learned about that and his parents discussed it with me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. The Suttons, was it an Orthodox Sephardic family?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Michael had a daughter with a woman who is not in the community?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the family did not accept Michael's daughter who was from a woman not in the community, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And wasn't that one of the big concerns that Michael had that, on the one hand, I have this daughter, I want to be a father to my daughter, but my family is not accepting my daughter or the daughter's mother, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think that was a vulnerability that Keith Raniere exploited, that he recognized that Michael had this conflict in his family, and he drilled down into it in order to manipulate Michael.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did I ask you anything about Keith Raniere just now?
RICK ALAN ROSS: You asked me about Michael Sutton and I explained to you what actually happened with Michael Sutton and what role his daughter played in the situation.
MR. AGNIFILO: So I want to talk about what you understood Michael Sutton's situation was. Okay?
RICK ALAN ROSS: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: So this came out in the first intervention?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think so. It came out at some point.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Michael Sutton spoke to you at great length about the fact that if he chose his Orthodox family, he would not have a relationship with his daughter?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, he did not say that.
MR. AGNIFILO: What did he say about that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He said he was troubled, that his family did not accept his daughter.
MR. AGNIFILO: And he wanted to have a relationship with his daughter, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He did have a relationship with his daughter.
MR. AGNIFILO: And he wanted to have a relationship with his daughter and he wanted his family to accept his daughter, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He wanted his family to accept his daughter, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you were aware of the fact that his family was not prepared to accept his daughter?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That is what they said.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, ultimately, you said the first intervention went over the course of two days?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It was about two or three days.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what are you doing all that time?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, it was, it was kind of chopped up because Michael would say, "I want to go play tennis," "I don't want to talk anymore," and so it was dependent upon Michael and what he thought was reasonable. So we would actually a lot of the time be talking on the beach under a beach umbrella because Michael would say, "I want to be on the beach." And so he would take breaks and we would talk for a while and then he might say, "That's enough, I'm going to go play tennis," or whatever, but there were hours during a two or three day period that we did talk about his family's concerns and NXIVM.
MR. AGNIFILO: And during these -- and for the timing, I'm just talking about that first intervention in Boca Raton. There were times during this first intervention where Michael is speaking positively of NXIVM, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And what is he saying?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He's saying it's given something to me and he would go into their kind of question format where he would ask me questions as he had been trained to ask through their training. And I would say to him, Michael, will you please just talk to me and not speak to me in that way regarding NXIVM and that I think that you should just speak for yourself rather than communicate according to their guidelines. And then he would break through and just kind of talk spontaneously rather than robotically. And I found that he was a very kind man, a very nice man, and I realized that he thought there were positive things about NXIVM but there were also negative things and we discussed that as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: So in this first intervention, he talked to you about positive things and negative things about NXIVM, fair to say?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, he focused on the positive though he admitted things like the singular importance of Keith Raniere, his title of Vanguard, that Nancy Salzman was the prefect, and how they celebrated his birthday for Vanguard Week and so forth.
And I told him, Michael, this sounds like a cult of personality rather than a legitimate seminar selling company and it sounds to me, like, basically what they're selling is you have to think like and act like and be like Keith Raniere and that he is the prototype and that everyone is supposed to be a clone. And I said, Is that really what you want in your life? And so we talked deeply about some of these issues though, as I said, Nancy Salzman was often buzzing in his ear and talking to him and coaching him.
MR. AGNIFILO: And one of the things that he would talk to you about during this first intervention is the problems he was having with his family, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Not really. He -- it was clear to me, and I can see from their interaction, a very loving family. Morris and Rochelle Sutton, who died during the 14 years of litigation at different points from cancer, they loved Michael with every fiber of their being.
MR. AGNIFILO: They didn't love their granddaughter.
RICK ALAN ROSS: They did not have a relationship with her. They never said they did not love her or care about her but they expressed great love for Michael. And, in fact, Morris and Michael had both bought matching Porsches and they were very close, they were like pals, and it was -- there was a very loving family.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you'll agree with me that when Michael had a daughter with a woman out of the, outside of the Sephardic Orthodox community, that marked a drastic change in Michael's relationship with his parents?
RICK ALAN ROSS: His parents were not happy about that but it was, it was evident to me from the way that they talked, from the way Michael talked, that they all loved each other despite that disagreement.
MR. AGNIFILO: But despite the fact that the parents loved Michael, the parents let Michael know they would have nothing to do with Michael's daughter, their granddaughter, fair to say?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They did not have a relationship with their granddaughter, that is --
MR. AGNIFILO: And they didn't have a relationship with the granddaughter because they didn't want a relationship with Michael's daughter, correct?
MS. HAJJAR: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may answer.
RICK ALAN ROSS: They did not meet with the granddaughter and they openly discussed that in front of me and -- but, again, it was clear to me that they loved Michael, that Michael loved them, but they had this disagreement about his daughter.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, and so how does the first intervention in Boca Raton end?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It ends kind of loosely with the feeling that there will be other talks, there will be more discussion, and Nancy Salzman had said there should be more experts opining about our training and offering opinions other than myself and so that's how John Hochman and Paul Martin, the doctors, became involved because they are both experts and so they wrote their expert reports.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point, did you get a cease-and-desist letter from John Hochman's lawyer in 2006?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't recall. I know that John settled. He won the lawsuit and it was dismissed, but then Keith Raniere and NXIVM filed, I think, for an appeal and John decided to settle and I don't recall, though John and I were on very friendly terms and he never called me about anything that I can recall specifically.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember getting a cease-and-desist letter from his lawyer to take John Hochman's report off of your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, I don't, I don't recall that exactly. I don't recall taking it down. In fact, it's still up.
(Continued on next page.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUES BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: No, I'm not asking if you took it down, I'm asking if you got a cease-and-desist order from John Hochman's lawyer directing you to take John Hochman's report off of your website in 2006?
RICK ALAN ROSS: As I recall, John Hochman signed over copyright of his article to NXIVM and Keith Raniere and, therefore, John no longer held copyright.
And if I did receive such a letter, which I may have, I received many, many letters through that litigation over the years, it would be, in effect, void because John did not have copyright.
I -- I don't recall receiving a letter from the copyright holder that John had signed it over to, specifically NXIVM, saying that -- that they were invoking copyright and wanted the article taken down. And I did not take down the article and there was no legal action to invoke copyright to take down the article.
MR. AGNIFILO: Well, part of the -- of what NXIVM wanted in the lawsuit was for you to take down the articles, fair to say?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That is what they wanted, but the articles were never taken down and there was no specific legal action regarding copyright on John Hochman's article.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember John Hochman -- you're saying you don't remember, you're not saying it didn't happen.
You're saying you don't remember getting the cease-and-desist letter from John Hochman's lawyer?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't recall that. I know that whatever letters I received were immediately handed over to my attorney. So Peter Skolnik or other lawyers would have reviewed any communication regarding legal matters concerning NXIVM.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, so let's get to the second intervention for Michael Sutton.
Where is that one?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, it would be a continuation of the ongoing conversation that we were having. And the second meeting that I had with him, I believe, was at the family residence in Elberon, New Jersey.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And tell us about that intervention. And let me just back you up.
How much time passed between Boca Raton and now the intervention in New Jersey?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I'm not sure.
MR. AGNIFILO: Days, weeks?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It could have been days, weeks.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
RICK ALAN ROSS: And then we convened at the family's home in Elberon; and Morris Sutton was there, Rochelle Sutton was there, I was there, and Michael. Jeffrey, I think, was also there, Michael's brother.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember the Sutton s asking you to take the material off your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And when did the Suttons ask you to take the material off your website?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That was after they felt that the intervention had -- my intervention work was done. I had met with Stephanie, I had met with their other daughter and her husband, their son-in-law, and they felt the intervention work for me was done. They no longer wished me to do any work and they did ask me if I would consider taking the articles down.
MR. AGNIFILO: And didn't they say to you that they wanted to try and repair the -- this is the parents, they wanted to repair the relationship with Michael?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They said they wanted the articles down and they felt that that might have some positive affect.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you told them no?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, I did. And I explained that these articles were important to help other people, and that this was the type of work that needed to be online so that no other families would be hurt as theirs was. And I told them that I doubted whether it would really make a difference in their relationship, but that it would make a difference for many, many other families, as I would hear from them over the years that the articles remained available online.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, how long were you on retainer from the Suttons?
RICK ALAN ROSS: For a period of, maybe, months.
MR. AGNIFILO: And do you recall what they paid you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I can't recall the exact amount, but it may have been somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 a day or $50 an hour. It may have been higher than that.
I can't -- I can't recall the exact agreement that we had, which would have been in, I believe, 2002.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And do you remember what you were paid in total for the services you rendered to the Suttons?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It would have been thousands of dollars.
MR. AGNIFILO: Tens of thousands of dollars?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, at one point you said in your first intervention with Michael it was mentioned that -- I think you said Nancy Salzman said something along the lines of there are no -- there are no experts. It would be nice to have experts opining on NXIVM, or something along those lines.
Correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, NXIVM had a teaching that you -- you seek expert opinion to establish the facts or -- or -- or have a better knowledge base. That is their claim. And so she encouraged Michael to get additional expert opinion. And he brought that up to me, talked to me about it, and then I actually followed through.
MR. AGNIFILO: And -- and so you hired John Hochman and Paul Martin, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Morris and Rochelle Sutton actually hired them, but I -- I conveyed to them the study notes, and then they did their reports.
Paul Martin resided in Ohio near Columbus. And John Hochman in Los Angeles.
MR. AGNIFILO: So you didn't find Hochman and Martin, you're saying the Suttons did?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, I'm saying they were on the list that Michael asked me. Michael said: Who would be other experts that could opine about the training from this perspective of is it or is it not a destructive cult?
And I gave a number of names, including John Hochman and Paul Martin. I also mentioned Margaret Singer, Robert J. Lifton, Stephen Kent. There were a number of people that I mentioned, but we have -- the Suttons eventually hired the two doctors that wrote the reports.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay.
And you mentioned another, another person, Mr. Lifton?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Robert J. Lifton.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. And you said he's well-known as a -- as someone who's written about cults and similar matters, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He's written about cults, but his most important work really, the work that many people discuss relative to cults is his book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, Mr. Lifton, he didn't review the NXIVM situation, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, he was not retained by the family.
MR. AGNIFILO: Paul Martin in his second report referred to the Lifton -- the eight Lifton factors, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He -- he referred to the criteria written by Lifton in Chapter 22 of his book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, to establish whether or not a thought reform program is ongoing.
MR. AGNIFILO: And Mr. Martin, was Paul Martin paid for his two articles?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Dr. Martin was paid to do an expert report.
MR. AGNIFILO: And he was paid, ultimately, by the Suttons, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And John Hochman was paid by the Suttons?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And the purpose of these three reports was to get Michael Sutton out of NXIVM, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They -- the Suttons felt that Michael had requested expert opinion. He wanted to talk to someone or have reports from someone other than me, and they felt that by him reading these reports by respected experts in the field, it might influence his thinking. It might, you know, cause him to dig deeper and do more research himself and that might lead to him leaving NXIVM.
But I think the Suttons' bottom line was that education is good and -- and it can't be a negative thing, really, in this sense. And so, whatever Michael would get from it, he would get from it; and they wanted to give him as much as possible.
MR. AGNIFILO: You were getting paid by Michael's parents, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Michael wasn't paying you?
MR. AGNIFILO: And Michael's parents wanted Michael out of NXIVM, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They felt it was a bad influence in his life and causing him problems, and they felt the same way about how it had affected Stephanie Franco and their daughter, her sister, and her husband.
MR. AGNIFILO: And so Michael Sutton's parents were paying you to get Michael and the other kids who were in NXIVM out of NXIVM, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Basically, they were -- were paying me to present a critical analysis, critical information; and their hope was that after they heard that information, that they would decide to leave. Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you got the Hochman and Martin reports to further your mission in getting Michael out of NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think the family hoped, and I hoped, that when Michael read those reports, which as far as I know he refused to review them with Jeffrey and I when we came to the office in Manhattan. They hoped, and I hoped, that that might stimulate him to critically evaluate what was going on and to reconsider his commitment to NXIVM.
MR. AGNIFILO: Didn't he tell you, in substance, these are just tools that you're using against him to try and get you out of NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think Michael was extensively coached. I witnessed the coaching firsthand when we were in Boca Raton, and I think that he was much more amenable and open to looking at things. And then it just seemed like the more he was coached, the more he shut down.
And at -- at some point he just at the offices said, I'm done. I don't want to talk to you anymore. I don't want to discuss this anymore. Jeffrey was sad, but that was the end.
MR. AGNIFILO: When you say you saw firsthand he was coached, did you ever see him speaking to anybody in NXIVM, other than Nancy Salzman on the phone?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, I saw him speaking with Nancy Salzman and I heard her voice, and he identified her as Nancy Salzman repeatedly.
MR. AGNIFILO: And was that only in Boca Raton or was that at other times as well?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That was in Boca Raton.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So let's talk about the second intervention where he's not speaking.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, Judge.
THE COURT: I think it's time.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, that's good, Judge.
THE COURT: Then we'll go on with the rest of your cross after lunch.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, that's fine, Judge. Yes.
THE COURT: All right, we will take an hour for lunch.
All rise for the jury.
(Jury exits.)
THE COURT: All right, the witness may stand down. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
(Witness steps down.)
THE COURT: Everyone may be seated.
About how much more do you have?
MR. AGNIFILO: Twenty minutes.
THE COURT: Okay. I think at some point we need to advise the jury about the future of the case, and I would like the parties to discuss it with each other, and so that at some point either today or tomorrow, I can give the jury an idea of what the rest of the schedule is.
MR. AGNIFILO: Very good, Your Honor.
MS. PENZA: Your Honor, may we actually ask for an hour-and-15-minute lunch because we have a custodian here and we have a little bit of a technical issue? And if we do that we'll be able to --
THE COURT: Okay, that's fine, an hour-and-15.
MS. PENZA: Thank you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you, Your Honor.
(The defendant exited the courtroom.)
(Judge NICHOLAS G. GARAUFIS exited the courtroom.)
(Luncheon recess taken.)
(Continued on the following page.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(In open court - jury not present.)
(Judge NICHOLAS G. GARAUFIS entered the courtroom.)
(The defendant entered the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Okay. Do we have something we have to do before we start?
MS. PENZA: No, Your Honor.
MR. LESKO: Your Honor, did Your Honor want to discuss a representation to the jury about the schedule of the trial?
(Defendant entered the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Well -- please be seated in the back.
Did you have a discussion about it?
MR. AGNIFILO: We have, Judge.
THE COURT: Who would like to jump in?
MR. LESKO: Well, I'll jump in. I --
THE COURT: Well, it is the Government's case. And then we will get to the defense.
How much longer do we have to go, do we think? I am not limiting you to what you tell me, but it would be good to be able to tell the jury, give them an idea of what lies ahead. But if you don't want to do it now, we can do it tomorrow.
MR. LESKO: So maybe we could advise the jury that we may only have a few witnesses left that may only take another day, but nothing is certain and all of that.
THE COURT: And we may have court on Friday. We may have testimony on Friday?
MR. AGNIFILO: We may. I think the view is that we also may not, but I leave that to Your Honor.
THE COURT: We may or may not have testimony on Friday, but we expect that next week we will have closing arguments --
MR. AGNIFILO: That's right.
THE COURT: -- and the charge?
MR. AGNIFILO: That's right.
THE COURT: I think that's a fair thing to do.
By the way, if you have a proposed charge on evidence obtained pursuant to searches, you should give it to me.
MS. HAJJAR: All right, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay?
And if we do not have testimony on Friday, then we will have a charge conference on Friday. All right?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right.
THE COURT: And you should have the draft charge by tomorrow.
MR. AGNIFILO: Very good, Judge.
THE COURT: All right, let's call in the witness and the jury.
(The witness enters the courtroom and resumes the stand.)
(Jury enters.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, everyone.
All right, before we complete cross-examination, let me just advise the jury, I have been discussing with the parties the schedule.
And I anticipate that we will have testimony tomorrow and, perhaps, Friday. Now, this is only tentative, so please don't hold me to this, but testimony tomorrow and, perhaps, Friday.
And then next week, on Monday, we would have closing arguments. And then on Tuesday, we will have the charge to the jury that I will give to you. And the charge will be read to you, and then you will have it. Each of you will have it with you in the jury room when you deliberate, so you won't have to take notes while I am giving you the charge.
Then you will retire to consider your verdict.
So that is our hope and our current plan, subject to revision. I hope I made that as imprecise as possible.
Okay. All right, let's continue with cross-examination.
MR. AGNIFILO: Thank you.
THE COURT: I remind the witness that he is still under oath.
(Continued on the following page.)
RICK ROSS, previously called as a witness by the Government, having been first duly sworn/affirmed by the Courtroom Deputy, was examined and testified under oath as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION RESUMED BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: Good afternoon, Mr. Ross.
RICK ALAN ROSS: Good afternoon.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, in addition to the Michael Sutton intervention, you did an intervention with one of Michael's sisters, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And one's name you can remember, and one's name you can't remember, am I right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That's correct.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. The one whose name you can't remember is married to Aaron, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And the one -- and then there is Stephanie Franco, who is the other sister, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. And just to recap, Franco had literature that she had from when she took a NXIVM coursework, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And she gave that literature to you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: She actually gave it to her brother, Jeffrey. And Jeffrey gave it to me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So you ended up with it, you ended up with the exact same literature that Stephanie got from the coursework, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you understood that there was a confidentiality agreement that Stephanie had signed when she took the course?
MR. AGNIFILO: You didn't know that?
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you learn that for the first time?
RICK ALAN ROSS: When Stephanie Franco was on -- was on her way to her lawyer after we were served, she told me, and it was the last conversation I had with her, that she was being told that she was in violation of a confidentiality agreement.
Later -- and I asked her, was there an agreement, and she said no. And then later, it turned out that she had signed a Visa charge slip, which in very, very small print had something about confidentiality that she was not aware of.
MR. AGNIFILO: But -- she signed a what? I didn't hear what you said.
RICK ALAN ROSS: She signed a -- a credit card slip. You know, she signed her signature on a credit card charge for payment to NXIVM or ESP, and in very small print on that slip there was something pertaining to confidentiality. And she was not aware of it until after she was served and -- and she became aware of the fine print of that slip.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you seen that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think I may have seen it once in the course of the litigation, but I certainly had not seen it before I was -- I was served.
And Stephanie Franco, herself, said that I had not signed a confidentiality agreement in the last conversation I had with her.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Ultimately, the confidentiality agreement was produced as part of the lawsuit, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I believe so, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And confidentiality agreements are common in business, that's your experience, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Not necessarily, but --
MR. AGNIFILO: So --
RICK ALAN ROSS: -- there certainly are confidentiality agreements, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. I mean, different companies use confidentiality agreements when they don't want someone else to use their information in ways that they don't intend, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think that there are confidentiality agreements, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you are aware of litigation going on in -- other than your case, over confidentiality agreements, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, NXIVM v. Ross became a court precedent regarding the nature of a confidentiality agreement. And what the Court ruled -- NXIVM v. Ross became a court precedent for the setting aside of a confidentiality agreement in the public interest.
And the federal court ruled that regardless of the confidentiality agreement that Stephanie Franco had, that the public interest trumped the confidentiality agreement. And, therefore, they ruled against Mr. Raniere and NXIVM.
And NXIVM v. Ross was upheld by the United States Supreme Court, which refused to review that case finding. And NXIVM v. Ross is now a precedent setting case.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So you said a lot of things just there. Let's unpack it.
RICK ALAN ROSS: All right.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So at the time, the case was in the Northern District of New York, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And from the Northern District of New York, it was appealed to the United States Court of Appeals to the Second Circuit, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. And the issue, you tell me if this is the way you remember it from your involvement in it, is that NXIVM was claiming you and the others violated their confidentiality agreement, because there was a confidentiality agreement signed by Stephanie Franco that she would keep the information confidential, that's one side of it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That was NXIVM's claim.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. Your side of it is, even if we did violate the confidentiality agreement, we have a First Amendment Fair Use right to use the information on -- to put the information on your website, is that right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That -- there was a Fair Use that was cited by the Circuit Court. And then in addition to that, they also set aside the confidentiality agreement as a means of having a basis to remove the articles from the database.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So tell me if this is your recollection:
The Second Circuit acknowledged the existence of the confidentiality agreement, but basically said the First Amendment trumped the confidentiality agreement, and so it was you used -- what the Second Circuit said was that they would use the information fairly under the Fair Use doctrine.
Am I getting this right?
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So tell me how I'm wrong.
RICK ALAN ROSS: That's -- that's part of it, but also what the -- my understanding of the Second Circuit ruling was that because the information was in the public interest, that the confidentiality agreement did not trump the public interest.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right.
RICK ALAN ROSS: So the public had a right to see the reports, regard less of the confidentiality agreement.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. But at the end of the day, there was a confidentiality agreement that was trumped by the First Amendment Fair Use right, correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: That was only part of what the -- what the second court found. And that's why NXIVM v. Ross is a precedent setting decision, because it also has a direct effect on the power of a confidentiality agreement to gag people from being able to release information in the public interest.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. If it's in the public interest?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then NXIVM sought a petition for a writ of certiorari to the Supreme Court of the United States, and that was denied?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So the Supreme Court never heard the case, they just -- they denied it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They allowed the Second Circuit's decision to stand and they did not reverse it or agree to hear it.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. So let's talk for a minute about these -- a little bit more about these reports, the three reports that you put on your website.
Is Paul Martin a PhD?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: In what? What's his PhD in?
RICK ALAN ROSS: In psychology.
MR. AGNIFILO: And John Hochman is a medical doctor?
RICK ALAN ROSS: He's a medical doctor, a psychiatrist.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Paul Martin interview Michael Sutton?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did John Hochman interview Michael Sutton?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Paul Martin interview anybody in the Sutton family?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did John Hochman interview anybody in the Sutton family?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Paul Martin interview anybody in NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't believe so. He read -- he read the notes and he studied their -- their literature, which was extensive.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did he interview anybody in NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did John Hochman interview anybody in NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't believe so.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did either Paul Martin or John Hochman take any NXIVM courses?
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Paul Martin or John Hochman speak with anyone who did take a NXIVM course?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't think so.
MR. AGNIFILO: So did either of them speak with Stephanie Franco?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't recall that they spoke with Stephanie Franco.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did -- all they had was the course materials, that's it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yeah. They were quite extensive, as you can see, and very detailed.
MR. AGNIFILO: You gave them the course materials?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And they did no other research before writing these reports, right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, they had a basis of knowledge in this field, and they had dealt with other large group awareness training seminar selling companies and other groups very similar to NXIVM. So they drew upon that experience, that well of experience.
And then they had the literature, the study notes, which were quite detailed. Plus, they had Stephanie Franco's additional handwritten notes reflecting on the course material.
So they had quite a bit.
MR. AGNIFILO: I am talking about actual information specific to NXIVM. Nothing other than --
RICK ALAN ROSS: The -- the --
MR. AGNIFILO: Let me just finish the question.
Nothing other than the Stephanie Franco materials that you gave them, there was no other research done --
RICK ALAN ROSS: All --
MR. AGNIFILO: -- into NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: All of that material was produced by NXIVM for its students, and it gives you the inner workings of what goes on in NXIVM. And Stephanie Franco's notes further extend upon that.
So what we're talking about is a large amount of material that details, in quite -- quite a detailed way, what NXIVM is all about. What the courses are all about, how they work. What kind of communication there is between NXIVM members. Who is bad, who is good. What is good, what is bad.
All of their -- it's a wealth of material --
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you aware --
RICK ALAN ROSS: -- that the doctors reviewed.
(Continued on the following page.)
BY MR. AGNIFILO: (Continuing.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Are you aware that there are 2,000 modules of information that have been created in NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, there are many modules, but I think that that core material is indicative of what is at the core of NXIVM and the doctors had that material to review.
MR. AGNIFILO: How many of the 2,000 modules have you reviewed?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Not 2,000.
MR. AGNIFILO: 1,000?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I doubt it.
MR. AGNIFILO: 20?
MS. HAJJAR: Objection, Your Honor --
RICK ALAN ROSS: I've reviewed -- I've reviewed the --
MR. AGNIFILO: The judge is considering an objection.
THE COURT: You may answer. Go ahead.
RICK ALAN ROSS: I've reviewed the material that has been produced as evidence in this case.
MR. AGNIFILO: You reviewed the Stephanie Franco written materials; correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you seen a single module that Keith Raniere --
RICK ALAN ROSS: You're talking about the videos that they produced?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah.
RICK ALAN ROSS: I may have glimpsed some of them. I've interviewed a number of NXIVM participants, people who have done the modules, people who have done the courses. I've talked to many of those past participants.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did Paul Martin or John Hochman speak to any of those people?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't believe they cite that in their report. They cite the core material of NXIVM.
MR. AGNIFILO: And did Paul Martin or John Hochman review any of 2,000 modules before they wrote their reports?
RICK ALAN ROSS: They reviewed the material that they were given which is in evidence.
MR. AGNIFILO: Were these reports peer-reviewed? Were the reports, the Martin and Hochman reports, were they peer-reviewed?
MR. AGNIFILO: What is peer review?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Peer reviewed would mean that there were other people in the field that would read these articles and perhaps they would do this in preparation before an article was published in what's called a peer-review journal. So, for example, they might be peer reviewed by other mental health professionals and then it would be published in a mental health professional journal.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you tell Mr. Hochman, Dr. Hochman, I'm sorry. Did you tell Dr. Hochman that the report that he would prepare would be kept in the strictest confidence and be shown to one single person; that being the person you're doing the intervention on?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't recall telling John that. And, in fact, I asked John for permission to publish the report subsequent to him completing it and I understood that it would be published and it would be online and be available to anyone that had internet access.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you to refresh your recollection --
THE COURT: Wait.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm sorry, Judge?
THE COURT: You are going to refresh his recollection?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. No one is seeing it, right?
THE COURT: No, but --
MR. AGNIFILO: I think he said he didn't recall.
THE COURT: He did not recall if -- okay. In that case, go ahead.
BY MR. AGNIFILO:
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to ask you to look at paragraph six, the part that's highlighted.
RICK ALAN ROSS: (Reviewing.)
Okay.
THE COURT: Question.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes. Do you now recall whether you told Dr. Hochman that the report would be kept in the strictest confidence and shown only to one ESP student from the Sutton family?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, I did not tell Dr. Hochman that. In fact, quite the opposite. I told Dr. Hochman that his article would be published online and it would be accessible to anyone with an electronic device that had internet access.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you hire Dr. Hochman to do a scientific of NXIVM?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I did not hire Dr. Hochman. He was hired by the Suttons to do a report based on his long-standing expertise in the field of studying destructive cults.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you consider this report a scientifically sound report?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I consider it an expert report.
MR. AGNIFILO: What's the difference in your mind between an expert report and a scientifically sound report?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, Dr. Hochman could have done additional research and the peer review like you mentioned, but it was an expert report nevertheless and I think he arrived at conclusions based on his review of NXIVM materials which he had access to and read.
MR. AGNIFILO: How much was he paid for the report, do you know?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't know.
MR. AGNIFILO: Now, I think you spoke about Edgar Bronfman. I think you spoke about Edgar Bronfman a little bit on direct examination; do you remember that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you ever met him?
MR. AGNIFILO: Have you ever spoken to him on the phone?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't recall speaking to him on the phone, no.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall you gave -- you gave Edgar Bronfman's name to the Forbes reporter?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I may have mentioned that he took a course. I don't remember it specifically.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how much money has Edgar Bronfman sent you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Edgar Bronfman wrote a check for $5,000 which was for a legal defense fund regarding the lawsuit filed against me by Landmark Education which is another group that sells seminars and trains people.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, Edgar Bronfman wrote you a $5,000 check in connection with another lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Not this lawsuit?
MR. AGNIFILO: This lawsuit was going on at the time that he sent you the check, no?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't think so, but I'm not sure. I don't recall exactly, but I know that the check was for the legal deference fund regarding Landmark Education.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. This is already in evidence as Government Exhibit 204-A and this particular exhibit -- within 204-A is Bates stamped ending 922.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Is that the check?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes. It looks -- it looks to be the check, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right. So if this is the check, this is in 2004, that means the NXIVM lawsuit was ongoing at that point; right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: But you're saying that this -- and it says "Contribution" at the bottom there from Edgar Bronfman; right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: You're saying this check wasn't for the NXIVM lawsuit; it was for another lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes. I was being sued by Landmark Education at the same time.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how did you go about communicating to Edgar Bronfman that you needed money in connection with this other lawsuit?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think he received a fundraising letter or e-mail.
MR. AGNIFILO: And by this point on -- you -- this isn't the only check that you got from Edgar Bronfman; right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It is -- no, that is the only check.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm going to show you Government Exhibit 204-A. This is ending 921.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Isn't this another check?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes, it is. I don't recall this check. It's from an earlier date.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right. It's a $2,500 check from November 10, 2003 from Edgar Bronfman to the Ross Institute; right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: Why is he sending you $2,500 then?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It was a contribution.
MR. AGNIFILO: For what?
RICK ALAN ROSS: For the institute to further its work, to pay for the costs of constructing the database and putting more information online.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you have a specific recollection now of why you got this check?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I would assume that -- I send out a fundraising letter annually, one fundraising letter and I assume that this was a response to that fundraising letter. I remember the $5,000 check, but quite frankly I didn't remember this check for 2,500.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. Did you get any other checks?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, not --
THE COURT: Other checks from --
MR. AGNIFILO: From Edgar Bronfman?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I only recall the one check from 5,000, but obviously the other check for 2,500 was also from Edgar Bronfman so it appears that the total would be 7,500.
MR. AGNIFILO: This is also Government Exhibit 204-A ending 923?
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: This is a third check?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't -- it seems to me like this was one check for 5,000 for the legal defense fund for Landmark Education and then you've shown another check from a year previous in response to a fundraising letter. I don't recall this check. It's a different date.
MR. AGNIFILO: I want to put it so you can see the two $5,000 checks at the same time. I think I'm going to do that. Hold on.
(Exhibit published.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Just so you can see there's two $5,000 checks. You see that; right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: One is dated in December of 2004 and one is dated in July of 2004.
MR. AGNIFILO: Okay. So we discussed the July 2004 one. That was the first check that we talked about. You said that was a contribution in connection with your Landmark lawsuit. What's this $5,000 check?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I'm sure it was a contribution. I don't -- it may have been a response to a general fundraising letter, but there were fundraising letters that went out about the Landmark Education lawsuit and, in fact, there were -- at one point there were three groups suing me simultaneously.
MR. AGNIFILO: And who was that?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Landmark Education -- well, there were -- there was the Gentle Wind Project in Maine, there was Landmark Education, there was Pure Bride Ministries in Florida and then there was the Church of Immortal Consciousness in Arizona, and I seem to recall at one point there were three of them suing me simultaneously. I know Landmark Education and NXIVM were both suing me simultaneously and they were -- I believe there was a third group as well.
MR. AGNIFILO: And was Lowenstein Sandler representing you in the Landmark case too?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: So, you said that they didn't charge you a dime but you had a legal defense fund?
RICK ALAN ROSS: What I would do with these checks would be -- in regards to the Landmark case, is I would endorse the check and hand it to Lowenstein Sandler because that check would go towards costs and the costs were far in excess of the donations that were received, so I would then give it to Lowenstein Sandler.
MR. AGNIFILO: And tell me -- maybe it's here and maybe I can't see it, tell me if that's what you did here with the $5,000 check?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Which check is this?
MR. AGNIFILO: This is the first one we talked about.
RICK ALAN ROSS: In July?
MR. AGNIFILO: Yes, the July check.
RICK ALAN ROSS: The check was deposited to the Institute account, but ultimately the funds went to pay for costs at Lowenstein Sandler.
MR. AGNIFILO: All right, you just said you endorsed it over.
RICK ALAN ROSS: I thought I did. I was mistaken.
MR. AGNIFILO: You just deposited this into your account?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It was deposited into the Institute account and then the funds went to Lowenstein Sandler.
MR. AGNIFILO: The only reason -- there's nothing that indicates that. There's nothing on the check that indicates what you did with the check, other than you put it into your account; correct?
MS. HAJJAR: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. AGNIFILO: We'll look at the other $5,000 check.
Do you see anything there that you endorsed this over to Lowenstein Sandler?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No, it was deposited to the Institute account according to the endorsement on the back.
MR. AGNIFILO: And then the $2,500 check, it's not terribly clear, but can you tell was any endorsement made to Lowenstein Sandler?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It appears to be, again, paid into the Institute account.
MR. AGNIFILO: How do you -- how do you go about making income? I mean in your current situation.
RICK ALAN ROSS: I do intervention work. I lecture. I have been involved in entertainment projects and, also, I testify as an expert witness in court proceedings.
MR. AGNIFILO: Umm --
RICK ALAN ROSS: And I also have written a book and write.
MR. AGNIFILO: Right, so -- but doing interventions is a primary way of you making income and it has been over the last many years; correct?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It's one of -- it's one of the ways in which I earn income, yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you have a number of private clients just like the Sutton's; right?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I have had -- I have done more than 500 interventions since 1982, so there have been many other clients that I've had like the Sutton's.
MR. AGNIFILO: Did you speak with someone named Mark Vicente?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MR. AGNIFILO: When did you speak with him?
RICK ALAN ROSS: After he left NXIVM.
MR. AGNIFILO: And how did that come about?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Mark Vicente called me.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you remember about when he called you?
RICK ALAN ROSS: No. He would have called me after he left NXIVM.
MR. AGNIFILO: And you spoke to him once or more than once?
RICK ALAN ROSS: More than once.
MR. AGNIFILO: I'm not asking specific conversations; what were the topics that you discussed?
RICK ALAN ROSS: His recovery. He told me that he had been in another --
THE COURT: I do not want you to say what he told you.
MR. AGNIFILO: Yeah, just general topics.
RICK ALAN ROSS: His recovery. His recovery and how he was doing.
MR. AGNIFILO: When was the last time you spoke to him?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I think I've spoken with him within the last two months.
MR. AGNIFILO: Do you recall when specifically?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, would you give me just one second?
THE COURT: Sure.
(Pause in proceedings.)
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I have nothing else.
THE COURT: Very well, any redirect?
MS. HAJJAR: Just very briefly Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: Mr. Ross, Mr. Agnifilo showed you some checks. Have you seen those checks anytime recently, do you know where they came from?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Well, I don't know. I don't recall all three of those checks, but I do see that they were made payable to The Ross Institute some years ago.
MS. HAJJAR: I'm going to show you Government Exhibit 204.
(Exhibit published.)
MS. HAJJAR: Have you ever seen this folder before?
MR. AGNIFILO: Your Honor, I think this is all beyond the scope of --
THE COURT: Oh, no.
Go ahead.
BY MS. HAJJAR:
MS. HAJJAR: And the checks that Mr. Agnifilo showed you, have you ever seen those checks before in that form? That he had showed them to you before?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I don't recall. I recall the one check for 5,000, but I don't recall the other two checks.
MS. HAJJAR: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
(Counsel approaches.)
MS. HAJJAR: I just handed you Government Exhibit 204 in its entirety. Could you just take a look at it?
RICK ALAN ROSS: (Reviewing.) Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: Have you seen that before, Mr. Ross?
MS. HAJJAR: What's the name on the top of that folder?
RICK ALAN ROSS: It's my name, Ross, Rick A.
MS. HAJJAR: What's in it, generally, the content of that folder?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Personal information about me, marked private and confidential.
MS. HAJJAR: You testified in response to questions on cross-examination about checks Mr. Bronfman gave you. Do you know if Mr. Bronfman was sympathetic to your cause?
RICK ALAN ROSS: I believe he had concerns about his daughters, but he never talked to me and told me that he was concerned about a cause.
MS. HAJJAR: You never spoke to him about that but you did receive contributions in your efforts against the litigations you were embroiled in with various groups?
RICK ALAN ROSS: Yes.
MS. HAJJAR: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Recross.
MR. AGNIFILO: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The witness is excused.
You may stand down, sir.
And please retrieve the exhibit.
MS. HAJJAR: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Call your next witness.