2.Daniela — Direct (Part 1)

DANIELA: Yes. So, after being involved in ESP, I would say the first one is when Keith started having sex with me. That was around my 18th birthday.

The next big event was when I crossed into the United States illegally, which was 2004. It was around Christmas 2004.

The next big event was when I had a fight with Keith, and that was in 2006, late 2006.

And the last big event was when they put me in the room, which would be 2010.

DANIELA: My father had a business with his brothers in the field of mining, manufacturing tools for rock drilling. Then he went independent in the same line of business and started acquiring a good degree of success. He was very good, he is very good, at what he does.

My mom was a stay-at-home mom, which means she did a lot of different things; not only take care of us, but she also contributed selling little things.

DANIELA: My childhood was idyllic. It was perfect. We grew up in a relatively-abundant financially setting. We went to private school, we had English lessons, tennis lessons.

I had a degree of difficulty fitting into society, into school, at the country club, but my family was my bubble. My family was like the center of gravity. I felt safe.

So, growing up for the first 15 years, my older sister was my best friend. I had a very good relationship with my parents. I would say unusually good relationship with my parents, perhaps later realized. They used to joke about our family, saying that we were like the Flanders in The Simpsons because we got along so well and it seemed so perfect from the outside. And the truth is that from the inside, it was a pretty wonderful way to grow up.

DANIELA: Yes. So, they changed a little bit throughout my childhood and I would call them more plans, not dreams.

When I was a little younger and I used to run around with my microscope and my encyclopedia, I wanted to be a biologist. I wanted to be -- I wanted to study the animals and be a marine biologist and I wanted to join Greenpeace.

As I grew older and I became a little more aware of the things I was liking in school, I changed my ideas. I wanted -- but I always wanted to do the sciences. I wanted to be a scientist. I wanted to do research.

As I grew older, I honed in on something a little more specific, and that was my -- I wanted an academic life. I wanted an academic future. I wanted to study at Harvard. That was my dream, that was my plan. I had seen it in the movies and I liked the idea of...

Then I learned that there's, like, many of ivy league schools, and I had the goal to study and apply to one of those and get in. So, I wanted to do research on -- I wanted to do preventive medicine research to help people.

DANIELA: Yes. So, in Mexico, we have three years of kindergarten; first, second, third.

Then elementary school, and those are six grades. They start again from first grade, so first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade.

Then comes middle school, and those are three more grades, again starting from one; first, second, third grade.

Then there's high school, three more grades, starting from first.

And then there's undergrad, grad, and that's the same as in the U.S.

DANIELA: Yes. And I really liked school, so I was very dedicated. I had perfect grades, needless to say.

But I was also pretty dorky, pretty nerdy. I was the type of student that -- I was fascinated by what we were learning. So, I would go back home -- and for a long time there were no computers, so I would go to the encyclopedia and do research and copy it on to my notebook and bring it to the teacher. And I was truly enthusiastic about it, which maybe was why I had trouble fitting in other areas. But I was very dedicated and I did really well.

DANIELA: Yes. So, my parents did a very good job of filling up our time, but, also, my father had a very good idea of what he thought was a good balance.

He, himself, was one of seven children and the only one to have attended college. And he did so on a scholarship. He was very proud of his education. And when he went to college, he played tennis. So, when we were growing up, he considered it very important that we applied ourselves to a sport and that we did so in a competitive way so that it would create a balance in our lives. So, one of the things we did, we did -- tennis was a family sport. We trained about three hours a day.

Also, from a very young age we attended English classes. He was very aware it was a very important tool for our future, so we did so every day. And I also did things like -- I did contemporary ballet and a little bit of piano.

DANIELA: For the school. I don't know if it was a test in all of Mexico, but it was certainly for the high school that I applied to, which is a high school that's related to the college program, which is the most elite college program in Mexico. And I applied to the high school that's part of that program.

So, this test, this aptitude test, there was a single aptitude test for all the different levels; not only high school, but also grad and undergrad. And there were different levels of scores required to get into each of the different programs.

DANIELA: Yes. So, yes, I think I can explain a little bit.

The same test is used for engineering, medical school, the high school diploma. And, so, the program in high school that I applied to was one of three. The high school had three programs with three different levels of difficulty. I applied to the most difficult one, and the scoring required for that program was actually higher than the scoring required for medical school.

DANIELA: Yes, it is.

I believe it was started for children of diplomats or people who traveled a lot so they were able to transfer their education from country to country.

DANIELA: Well, it was difficult. At the time, it felt like heartbreak to me. I was very aware, even, like, the months before I left, that I was leaving a chapter of my life behind and I was going to be away from my family and perhaps forever, perhaps that was the last time that we were going to be spending time as a family.

It was very sad. It was very sad that I had to part with, you know, the nucleus, this bubble where I felt safe. So, it was for me in particular -- I think for anybody at 15, but it was a pretty big break.

DANIELA: It was difficult. It was difficult just because so much of it was very new. Simple things, like preparing my own food, I didn't know it. Growing up, there was my mother, obviously, and we also had help in the house.

So, having to decide what to eat for breakfast, lunch, dinner, washing my clothes, the routine of an independent life, that was new to me, that was certainly difficult. But doing it with my sister was even more difficult.

My sister was a little more normal than I was, so she had an active social life. She liked partying. And when we were in Monterrey together, she started hanging out with, I think, bad company. She developed a pretty severe eating disorder. It was, like, in at the time with the elite there, or at least this group of people that she was -- like, the popular girls that she was hanging out with.

And, also, she was partying a lot and drinking a lot, so much so that I started going out to nightclubs, which is not something I used to do, just to make sure she was okay. So, I was taking care of her.

DANIELA: So, even before it -- before, when I was back in my hometown and I was deciding where to go to school, as I said, it was my dream and my plan to study. In fact, very specifically my dream was to study in Switzerland. I have family from Switzerland and I had been admiring the calendars with beautiful pictures and learning about it for a while.

So, even before, I had applied to schools in Switzerland and I had gotten in, but my mom put her foot down and said, For the first time that you leave, it's the first time you're going to leave home, you at least have to stay in the country.

So, I wasn't allowed. But for the second year, it was the second year, so I was allowed. What I did is, taking advantage of the IB program that I was a part of, I searched out all the schools that had that program and contacted the admissions office for all these different places, applying for a transfer to do a year abroad.

DANIELA: I printed a directory of all the IB schools and I filtered the ones I wanted to. Some of them didn't have, you know, easily available -- like, the internet was not as well grown as it is today, maybe. There's no app to, like, apply to every school.

So, some of the schools that I was looking up didn't have a straightforward way to apply to them, so I would just write letters introducing myself and explaining who I was, that I was interested in studying there.

And that's how I searched them out and contacted them all.

DANIELA: So, what happened is I received a phone call which was very surprising from a man called Paul Dyer, who was the head of the admissions office at LAS. And he told me that he was, essentially, pleasantly surprised by my letter.

That was one of the schools that didn't have an application. I had just sent an introduction package from Daniela. And he said he would like to meet me, he would like to meet my father. He wanted to interview us, he wanted to interview me, you know, to -- like, I wasn't admitted. He wanted to meet me and he had an appointment in Mexico, so I set up an appointment with my father, and we met in Monterrey with Paul.

DANIELA: Well, I was very nervous, and I remember it was an academically-oriented interview. He had financial questions for my father.

But the interview went very well because after that, I received another phone call from Paul to announce that not only was I admitted but I was being granted the only scholarship that they gave out a year. So, it was fantastic.

DANIELA: Yes, yes. I mean, there wasn't much to decide.

The main issue was that even with the scholarship, it was a very expensive trip, it was a very expensive thing to do. So, the main thing was on my dad, but he approved. He looked at the numbers and did what he had to do.

For me, it was an automatic yes.

DANIELA: Yes. I applied for the immigration, the visa required, to be able to go to Switzerland; my father got his finances in order for that; I started -- I gave notice to my high school of transfer.

So, everything was in place.

DANIELA: Yes. My parents had trapped me into a few of those.

I had taken something called Empowerment, which was a program that connected you to your inner child, which I was a child so it was easy to connect.

I also took NLP -- and I was young. NLP is neurolinguistic programming. I was young. It was for kids, so I found it very boring.

DANIELA: This was a very, I thought at the time, very sophisticated group of people. It was the Mexican people there were all part of the Mexican elite, very wealthy people, very successful people. And I was a 16-year-old student from a small town in Mexico, I felt it was -- it was -- it was an -- it was intimidating but in like, in a -- I guess in a good way. Like, not in a negative way.

It was just very impressive, you know, the level of people there.

DANIELA: He was spoken about a lot and it was with -- with that degree of reverence. He was -- they showed us his picture. I mean, by the end of the intensive I thought I knew what he was like.

They, of course, said he was the smartest man in the world.

DANIELA: Yes. And I mean, to me, that was kind of enough. I mean, as a person who valued intellect the most and all of that, as a scientist and the smartest man in the world.

Other things were also said. All of them like, impressive sorts of things; that he was unified. That he was a renunciate.

So there was like this aura of saintlihood of sorts.

DANIELA: Unified in ESP terms, I believe, means you have no disintegrations. So it is, in essence, like the endpoint, like the whole reason everybody is trying to go through all of these courses and removal of disintegrations and so they can get like reach this nirvana; this point where there's nothing else to be fixed.

And essentially, as I understood it, you no longer react to the external world. You don't have any contradictions in the way that you feel, you act, you think and you act.

DANIELA: Yes. They spoke about how, like, simple he was. How little he was focused on material things. How you say like, he could eat pizza every day, he doesn't care about, you know, variety in his diet, you know, like.

He was like, simple, like, a little bit like, like a monk, a little bit like, like better. Like, past all these mundane things. That's what I understood.

DANIELA: Yes. So in this class -- in this class -- and they used like a white board with paper and like a marker and like drew the world. Like a big circle.

And in that my first -- in my first intensive in this class they proceeded to like, proceeded to -- Lauren --

DANIELA: Yes, the head trainer.

They proceeded to, one by one, describe how every effort that humans, humanity are making to better the world, are futile. So it was essentially all of my dreams, like, oh, we are trying to save the whales with Greenpeace, you know, we're trying to cure cancer. We're trying to end world hunger. We're trying to achieve peace in the world.

And what I thought was a very clean, logical progression, demonstrated that all of these efforts are futile. We can't help the world that way. We can't help the world that way because we're just going to keep recreating all of these problems as long as we are disintegrated.

So the only way -- and this was like to me, it was an elegant progression that made sense to me. So the only way to really help the world was through the ESP tech, and that was an issue, because if humans became integrated -- and not all of them because in that same class it was presented that Keith Raniere, the vanguard, scientist and smartest man in the world, had come up with this mathematical calculation for the state of the world, and this calculation was at the pace that we were going, if we didn't change the course, and like really push that mission and more people got integrated and more wealth was controlled, the world was going to end -- and I don't remember, it was like a period of like 10 or 15 years.

So given what I was trying to do, you know, I was -- I was -- I was -- I was and it was -- it was a bit of a childish idea, perhaps, but I wanted to become a scientist and do all these things to help save the world.

And here, this class demonstrated to me that anything I was going to attempt to do wasn't going to be at least as impactful as what they were doing that really had the potential to change the world and we were against the clock.

DANIELA: Well, first of all, I think several things about that class.

First of all, I had pictured -- I had pictured the calculation, the mathematical calculation that's an actual computation out of the output of the state of the world in several ways. I -- I knew -- here now, I know that they use that calculation many times before. It was never refreshed, it was always the same. So, it was -- it wasn't real. That -- that wasn't real. That -- that was a lie. That there was no mathematical calculation for that. It was just someone's idea. Keith's idea.

And the module, the mission -- I mean, it changed the course of how -- the next decisions I made on my life, which affected everything else. I don't think that is true.

DANIELA: They were coaching. So there was a head trainer and then there were other people who -- so there's a ranking system. And so they were not students. They already had some kind of a rank. And they were basically facilitating the class.

So there was like a main teacher, but then there were coaches who were guiding the discussion groups. That's what they were doing.

DANIELA: I was expecting -- well, a really smart person, and dedicated to this -- to this -- to this mission, and kind of elevated. You know, like, I -- I -- I expected -- yeah, I think that was it.

I -- I also had like an idea of what it would look like, because there were also so many descriptions about that.

DANIELA: Well, that was the impact and then that's somewhere in the middle. Actually, I think that's somewhere in the five days. So I continued taking the intensive and as the classes progressed, there was like a certain degree of attention on me, which there usually wasn't. So that was very flattering.

And so by the end of the intensive, somewhere close, I was -- I was having conversations with Lauren and she -- not formally, because there wasn't like, oh, we have a vacancy. But it was like, why don't you come with us? Like you could help the mission. So come work with us.

DANIELA: I don't remember, but I do remember that I was surprised by like the nature of the conversations and the offer. Because I didn't have any valuable skill sets. I was a student of high school.

So I was incredibly flattered but also very surprised. Like, oh, thank you, but what do you think I can do to help? I mean, I don't know anything.

DANIELA: More than explain, they looked for things or skills that I may have that might fit in with something that they were doing. And sure enough, they ended up honing in on the programming. And I had just started programming my first year of high school. In my hometown there was nothing close. I didn't even know that one can study programming.

And so in the -- in the questions that they were asking me, you know, like, well, what do you like? What have you done? What are you good at?

I was like, well, I just learned how to program. That's it. So the problem was I learned to program in a pretty archaic languaging program, which is like usually how you start programming. It's called Pascal and definitely that wasn't the language that they used in the programming that they did in Albany with ESP.

But they said, you know, you're so smart. We're going to teach you and then you can work with us.

DANIELA: Well, that was a really important intersection in my life. On the one hand, I was on course with my plan, on course with my dream, and this had just really been something I took to make the most out of that.

But that module, the mission, had made a huge impression on me and the mathematical calculation, the tick-tock of the world is going to end and something needs to be done, was also something that, in my childish understanding of things was -- was massive and impressive and important.

So I didn't say -- I didn't jump on it right away. The offer that was discussed through the intensive, discussions continued. They put me in touch with a woman called Karen Unterreiner, who was the head of, like, she was doing the programming. So like the communication continued, but I didn't decide because I already had my decision to go to Switzerland.

DANIELA: So in the end -- and I remember even where I took the decision, it was a family gathering on the weekend at my aunt's house and by her well. I decided, okay, all right. So I'm going to take a sabbatical. I'll take a year off school. A year from now, school is still going to be there. Maybe not LAS, I will lose the scholarship, but I will find something else; right? And I'll go and for a year I will go and I will help. I thought it was that important. I thought, okay, I'm going to do my part.

So I called Paul Dyer and I told him that I was going to refuse the scholarship, and that I wasn't going to attend. And he didn't take no for an answer right away. He said are you sure? You know, what are you going to do? Have you thought about it? Do you understand what an opportunity this is?

And so he paused on me and he said, think about -- call me back with your confirmation.

And so I thought about it a little bit longer, but I decided to refuse the scholarship in the end, and I called him back and I -- I declined.

DANIELA: After that, we were all happy about my decision, including my parents. And so we started planning. And the plan ended up being that the time to go coincided with something called -- well it coincided with Keith Raniere's birthday. So it was his birthday celebration. V week.

So the plan was for my parents to go drop me off at, you know, at Albany to stay, staying by -- staying through V week, setting me up and then leaving.

DANIELA: They -- they did.

Every time you enrolled a number of people, you got a -- like a stripe or you got promoted. So my father or my mother enrolled me, probably got a stripe or two.

DANIELA: I remember it was in a place called Pyramid Lake. It was like a forest setting, very rustic, and there were like little cabins spread throughout. There were a lot of people there, like really cool people, but all I can remember -- and the ambiance of the entire gathering is we had activity throughout the day, but I was looking forward to the forums with Keith and it felt like that was everybody's focus as well.

There was like this latent looking forward to, there's going to be a forum tonight or what's Keith doing and you know. So it was -- it was Vanguardcentric.

DANIELA: Yes. I thought he was exactly what I expected and he was -- he looked smart and acted smart. I -- I had a bit of contact with other like really smart people before, and they all have like a little quirk, or like a little weird, or off in some way. And he certainly wasn't normal. Like it wasn't just like, oh, a plain guy.

He had that vibe of like, a geeky man. He was also very attentive and very soft-spoken, and had like a suite presence about him.

DANIELA: Well, when I met him -- and when I met him I was with my parents -- he called me by my first name. So I had not met him yet and he called me by my name.

And he said I hear you're very smart. So I call that attentive.

DANIELA: Incredibly flattered. I mean, it was -- and I'm not one to crush on celebrities, but I mean, given my temperament and what was important to me in life, he was the smartest man in the world. So he was like a rock star. Like that moment was, like, oh, my God. And then he said my name and he called me smart.

So that moment was so special. Was so special. And my parent were with me, so it was a truly special moment.

DANIELA: Oh, yes. I mean, that's all taught in the intensive. It's like -- it's all intertwined as part of like, the tribute and part of like, the value.

So she had someone -- she was -- she had a higher rank. Automatically there was like a degree of -- of a -- of respect attached to that.

DANIELA: At V week and shortly before, because it was just so fast, I met Karen Unterreiner, who I had been exchanging, I believe, phone calls. It was communication, since I was in Mexico, I met -- I met Michelle Salzman, Lauren's sister. I met Barbara Jeske. I met Pam Cafritz, very briefly. She was like accompanying Keith.

I met Nancy Salzman. I met -- well, there were a lot of people from Mexico.

DANIELA: Yeah, right away she -- she introduced herself and her role to me, because I was -- she was to be my boss, essentially.

So at the time she was in charge of the administration office and all the administration stuff. And also in kind of hand in hand with it, the IT department. So the creation and the maintenance of a computer system that kept track of all of the company.

DANIELA: I mean, it was part of the basis of everything. In fact, just to be able to go up in ranks, you had to enroll. So you could not go up in ranks on merit itself, being well or like, just, you know, in this case I guess it would amount to, oh, you're more integrated, or I don't know what other actual measures.

But if you had not enrolled like a certain number of people, you just weren't going anywhere. So it was built in. And anyone who wanted to grow in ESP had to enroll. It was encouraged. I would say, almost dictated. It was part of if you really believe in something, wouldn't you want to share it with everybody else?

And in the case of the mission, you know, the point was that we didn't need everybody to be integrated. We didn't need everybody, you know, to be like, unified to save the world. But we needed enough people in control of enough resources to change the course of the destruction.

So it was -- it was super important and implicit in everything.

DANIELA: I believe it just changed the once and then stayed there. Pyramid Lake was the first one that I attended and may have been the last one that happened there.

All the subsequent ones that I can remember where in the place called Silver Bay. That was like a -- like a retreat by the lake.

DANIELA: So the arrangement that was made was, I was to stay with -- there was a man called Edgar Boone, and he owned an apartment. Nothing really as close in Albany, so it wasn't walking distance, but it was sort of close to the center, to the ESP center, which was in 455 New Garner Road.

And so I was staying in his apartment. In that same apartment, Loreta Garza was staying, so we were roommates and Edgar was staying there too, although not all of the time, because he was going back and forth to Mexico.

And there was a -- a pretty decent flow of people coming in and out of the place, because Edgar was a salesperson and he enrolled a lot of people from Mexico so when there was an intensive, many times he had people staying over at the house.

DANIELA: So I started working with Karen and she started like in the first few days, weeks, giving me the lay of the land. Explained to me what the computer system was, did, how admin worked, what languages she was programming in. She was programming in PHP with MIT SQL database on an Apache server.

I was -- she was showing me all those things. And I was supposed to learn -- they were supposed to teach me. She did hand me a PHP book and I was supposed to do those exercises and read through that book and learn that language so I could start programming.

DANIELA: No, other than the book -- other than the book and she helped me install, like, it was like a demo version but something -- like a local installation so that I could try like plug in the code and do the testing. The only person who sat down with me maybe three times to actually teach me, because those were, like, lessons, was a woman named Siobhan.

But she didn't teach PHP, she taught me HTML, because I also didn't know HTML. HTML, I wouldn't strictly call it a programming language, more like an interface design code. She sat down with me, like, a couple, maybe three times and taught me -- showed me and taught me things.

That was the full extent of any actual teaching other than just, Here, learn this.

DANIELA: The admin office was in -- it was at 455 New Karner Road.

When I got there, there was just the one building. Later on, other places were purchased, but there was just one building. So, going into the office, it's the last office in the corner. That was the admin office. It was a small room, corner, with, like, a code to enter.

DANIELA: A good few hours.

And when I was done with that, I started finding ways to make myself useful, you know, because there was no structure. I was used to the structure of school, and here I was going into what I thought was going to be a job. I was -- I felt both confused and ashamed that I couldn't just learn the programming language and be working for them and helping the mission how I thought and envisioned it.

So, I just made myself useful in every way that I could; I would clean refrigerators, I would clean the floors, clean the bathrooms, organize the storage room. I found ways to be useful, like, a full workday.

DANIELA: She took a year off school because she also had dreams. But her dream was to be a supermodel and she wanted to go to Milan, which was nuts because she didn't have any viable leads, it's not like she had been invited or discovered, she just had this fantasy that she wanted the model lifestyle. So, my parents obviously told her, No, you can't go to Milan by yourself to see if you are discovered as a model.

And she took a year of school, had no plans, and took a job as a waitress in my aunt's restaurant.

DANIELA: I was hearing from my parents, who I communicated with regularly, that she was -- she was, like, a little depressed, she was having, like, some issues. And, also, she was causing some trouble; she was partying, she was drinking out with friends.

And there was a particular event, actually, that detonated my suggestion to my parents. She went out with her friends one night, and they broke into a supermarket that belonged to one of the kids that were hanging out with her. And they broke a pinata in the supermarket and they broke some things and they were drinking in there. And it was, like, a big deal; like, she got grounded for it and reprimanded by my parents.

And at that point, around that time, I told my parents, Why don't you send her with me, send her here with me? And maybe she can take some ethics classes at the center at 4559 New Karner Road.

Because I think this was a center where there were more people enrolled. They were offering not only intensives but classes on the regular. So, I suggested, Why don't you send her with me?

I thought I could take care of her, maybe straighten her out. And she could take some classes.

DANIELA: We were in several places. We for a few maybe days, maybe weeks, stayed with an ESP member whose name was Rose. It was just a little strange and uncomfortable for us, so that didn't last very long.

We ended up staying for a longer period of time in a hotel. So, we then did a hotel. I spoke to my father and he was paying for it. We rented a hotel, the Howard Johnson that was close to the center, and we were staying there together.

DANIELA: She was definitely in the middle of a depression. The first few days and weeks that she came, she wouldn't get out of bed.

I remember one time -- I would get up early in the morning, do my things, go to the center, and work, come back later. Normal. So, I remember one day Marianna was sleeping and it was a little late, didn't get up. I went to work, and I remember the TV was on the horse racing channel. And I left, I came back really late, and when I got back she was still in bed and the horse racing channel was still on. So, she hadn't been up all day.

And it was like this for a good few weeks. She would get up and go to the center for the classes, but she would come right back. I think that she was maybe doing a little bit better with the eating disorder because she had gained weight, but she was also very self-conscious about that.

So, it was very difficult time for her.

DANIELA: Yes. So, in one of those occasions, she -- I believe they had met before, but she, like, made -- had made contact with Pam, Pam Cafritz. And, like, a friendship was born. I saw it, like, overnight. They used to say Pam took Marianna on.

Because to me, it was very strange. They became really close, really fast. At the time, it was explained to me Pam was an athlete and Pam had taken an interest in Marianna as an athlete too.

DANIELA: I think Pam or my sister.

It was almost as if that was the thing that they had in common. But it was strange because all of a sudden she was buying things for Marianna. Marianna started playing tennis again, and Pam would pay for the court time and the gear and was, like, showering her with -- that, to me, wasn't a simple friendship. It was strange.

DANIELA: No, I didn't.

I felt happy that she was doing better, because she was doing better. She wasn't sleeping at the hotel all day anymore. She had, like, some light back in her. She was starting to play tennis, which she loved. So, I thought she was doing better.

DANIELA: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, actually, a lot.

I would say that -- I would say as clear as I can say it, that it transitioned from me taking care of her to Pam taking care of her. Like, it's almost like she migrated from under me.

DANIELA: I would see him specifically at forums.

So, at the time, there were quite a bit of intensives at the center, that were held at the center. And every time there was an intensive, there would be one, at least, maybe two forums. And that was when Vanguard would show up for a period of a couple hours, maybe more, to answer questions. Just open forum, answer questions. So, that was one opportunity I had to see him.

Also, during volleyball nights, which was on Friday night, that the community got together and there was, like, a volleyball match through the night, late night.

And there were, like -- it was not as often early on, but there were more and more community events happening. So, like, they would show, like, snippets of movies or would have a certain theme night and there would be, like, an event, a community event. Sometimes he would attend those too, so that was another occasion where I could catch him.

DANIELA: I'm sorry, I just want to specify. I would see him, I wouldn't actually talk to him. I was too shy to approach him. When I say to see him, I literally was to see him and listen to him.

Volleyball nights were -- it was like a community event. I don't believe it was just about playing the sport. First of all, Keith always attended. So, it was -- I think the reason for everybody to go was so they could see Keith. And maybe in a little more informal setting it was easier to approach him and ask him maybe, like, a personal question, which was difficult in a forum, was difficult to catch him in any other event. So, it was an opportunity to have, like, more personal contact.

But it consisted of -- like, late at night it would start, so it would end early morning. People gathering and coming in and out and a game happening. In the early days, when I first got there, it was very informal. Teams would be picked informally and games would be played, whoever wanted to participate. And there were a bunch of people on the sidelines just watching Vanguard or waiting to speak to Vanguard and speaking to each other, and it was, like, a community event.

DANIELA: I got the courage to approach him.

Because I was really disappointed with the work that I was doing. It's not what I expected. I was very disillusioned and also felt very troubled by the fact that I had not been able to do any, like, meaningful work or help in any meaningful way. And I felt like there was no point to me being there and I wanted to go back to school and back to my path.

And I approached him to ask him about that. Like, you know, to get his opinion on that and express that.

DANIELA: He was very attentive. He asked me a series of questions. So, I don't remember precisely, but I remember the gist of it. Like, well, you know, very ESP-type questions: What do you think your purpose is? What do you want to do, like, you know, in the mission? Have you written your mission statement? Like a guiding kind of thing.

And he said, And, so, what do you like to do? What did you do before? What were your plans?

And, so, I shared with him what it was, and he very effectively zoned in my academic interests, like that's what I want. And he said, Well, you know, how high in math did you get to?

And he wrote, like, a few equations on the board. I believe the first was, like, a quadratic equation, and there was some calculus. I didn't take calculus in high school. I think he was gauging my level of education. So, it was very encouraging that he was precise about it.

And then he said, You like intellectual, academic things, right?

And he zoned in perfectly. And he gave me a brain teaser. As part of that, he gave me a brain teaser. He said, Well -- and I don't remember what the brain teaser was, but it was simple. And I gave him the answer right away, and I thought he was very pleased.

And, you know, the conversation continued, and he said, well, you know, something like, We should talk more.

And he gave me another brain teaser that was more difficult. And he told me something like, When you solve it, let me know.

It was something like that, that exchange went something like that.

And, so, we said good-bye, and I ran into, like, the other room. And I wanted to solve it, I wanted to impress him, I wanted to show off. I wanted him to know how smart I was.

So, I went into one of the rooms in the back. And when I want to think, I always need, like, silence and isolation. And I thought really hard and I solved it. I think it was a matter of minutes. It was fast because I caught him before he left. And I approached him and I gave him the answer.

And he was surprised, I think. He was, like, pleased. So, I was very happy with myself. And he smiled and he was -- he appeared to be happy, and he said, Good.

And he gave me -- I don't remember if that time he gave me, like, his contact information or told me that Karen would give it to me, but, basically, now I had made contact. It was like he said we should talk, you know?

That was it.

DANIELA: Yes. I started communicating with him via e-mail and, also, there was more, like, one-on-one contact.

So, I was no longer completely shy to approach him maybe at a volleyball game or maybe when he was at center. There was -- well, there was now some degree of closeness.

DANIELA: It was massive. Yes.

I mean, here I was deciding -- so, I had taken a year off to help save the world, but by no means were my plans, my academic future and my dreams, on full stop. I was realizing I was there to help, and I wasn't helping. I was doing data entry. I thought at the time I was dragging my feet with programming, I couldn't do that. And I wasn't helping in any way. So, I wanted to continue with my education.

So the moment he floated the idea of I could teach you, it was like, wow, you mean you could teach me, like, an actual education. So, it was an alternate path had opened.

DANIELA: Yes. In subsequent conversations, it became firm, like, the offer to, I will teach you, don't go to school I will teach you, was formalized.

So, there was no mistake, no gray area of I said, Maybe I could. It was, I will teach you. Don't go to school.

And I did have a very specific discussion with him about it because it was no light matter to me. We're talking about replacing an ivy league education, like a formal academic life.

And he did have something to say about that. It was something like, Well, with ESP and the tools in ESP, the degree of freedom, also being without integration and being a little more advanced in that way, that we actually could achieve better things than with traditional education.

DANIELA: That first year of high school was the last time I actually attended school. I did a little bit later on. I did go into a test and I got my GED.

So, as far as degrees of study, the highest degree I have is a GED.

DANIELA: Yes, and I did even then a little bit. Not with the clarity that I have now.

But the EM process, I always had a very hard time with it, because to me, I was, like, earnestly answering what they were asking me, and it seemed like they were leading a certain place and they expected me to answer a certain thing. And just -- I couldn't give up my mind, I couldn't surrender to I'll just tell you what you want. I was, like, earnestly doing that thing.

So, in fact, I never -- like, I never had a good experience with an EM or an integration or those famous a-ha moments that, like, made you cry. To me, I could see that that was kind of pushing me in a certain direction that fit in with the concepts of the ESP framework but that I didn't feel were true to what I was experiencing.

DANIELA: Well, even though I had put it back, I was struggling with -- I felt really bad still. I had stolen some money and I didn't think I had that in me and so I think I wanted to tell someone to -- I don't know, to, like, for some kind of relief. I told him because, I mean, he was -- he was a person that I had started to trust. We were building a friendship. That's how I saw it and also because of this thing that I felt inside of me, I thought he would maybe help me bring some clarity.

I mean, he was, you know, the Vanguard, the creator of all of these things; knew human nature, I thought, better than most. I think I did it trying to feel better, trying to find a way to understand what I had done. Also, like, like to confess, I guess. It was that kind of a desire.

DANIELA: I remember he was -- there was definitely a sense of gravity to the subject. So in no way was it a light conversation, but he was very, I felt, neutral. It was very understanding. So it wasn't, oh, how could you do this and a disciplining act like I would expect from my parents or something like that. It was an exploration. Well, why did you do this. Well, what -- and there were a few things that were notable.

The first thing is that the first reaction -- the first reaction out of him was that he already knew that. That was very surprising to me. So, I told him I had done this thing and he tells me he already knew that.

DANIELA: Well, when you're -- when you have a relationship, maybe when you're, like, friends with someone and you're equals, I see it as being at the same level. And the relationship I was developing with him was not one between equals. So that's why I said, well, it was a friendship to me. That's what I thought it was.

But really it was one of, at least in intention, mentor/student, but certainly beyond that. It was Vanguard and a student. So he knew better. So in the scheme of things he knew better. He was better. I was here. He was unified. I was disintegrated. You could put it so many different ways but it was definitely up and down.

DANIELA: We had a very, I would say, colorful conversation that -- I will say made me feel better and not -- it wasn't like a feel-good conversation. He actually, I thought, was understanding and hit my concerns about myself, about the core of myself, which is exactly what had been troubling me. And he says to you, like guiding, things because okay -- I felt -- for example, I felt, well, I've done this thing -- yeah, I put it back, but why does it still bother me. Because it's as if you have a blank page and you stain it. You can't erase it. It's going to be stained forever. Now I'm a person who stole forever. I can't undo that. I did it, I can't undo that and I felt -- it's a bit dramatic, but I felt ruined. I wasn't this honest person any other.

And he addressed that and he said, yes, you cannot -- you cannot get that back, but that's the nature of things. It's like when you lie, you now know that lying is a possibility. So you stole. Now you know that stealing is a possibility. Now, you can leave that the way it is or correct it -- and you correct it.

And he said this which I thought was interesting, you know, you could actually be a better leader of people because now you know what it's like to steal and choose not to steal and you can speak about it. You can speak to it because you now know more than someone who has never done it.

DANIELA: It wasn't over. I thought that conversation was, so I confessed, we talked about it and, you know, the conversation was very focused into myself like internally, internal work that I needed to do to understand. But I thought it was over because I took the money and I put it back. You know, that external, I stole money and I put it back was done. That part was done. There was nothing to be done about that.

All of it was about me. What do I do about this thing that I was capable of doing that. I was capable of breaking. I was mistaken. What happened next was he -- and I think it was a phone conversation he called me and he said -- you know, he explained to me that he needed to -- I needed to talk to Karen and he needed to tell Nancy and that it was going to be difficult, but he was going to be there for me throughout and at the end.

And I was like, okay, and he said, you know, there are consequences to your actions, you know, beyond that, but it was -- it was a friendly conversation and he said he was going to be there for me. That it was going to be difficult but it was essentially good for me, important for me, and he was going to be there at the end. So I was -- I was taken aback and what happened next was hell. It was hell.

So I did speak to Karen. Nancy spoke to me and had these, like, sessions of, like, questioning and how are you going to fix it and I remember being completely confused, you know, as to how to fix something that was already fixed. So it's not like -- do I need to pay more money back? Is there going to be interest? It was something that I could not understand and it was aggressive and it was -- it felt like a punishment to me which what I did was really wrong so I took it. Like, I took all of it and that's what I deserve.

And there was some kind of an intensive where there was, like, some extra-modular that particular afternoon that happened. Not only what I did was bad, it was bad and I felt shame because I did something that was really bad, and I -- so I was part of this module and breakout group that was helping me at the time and in the middle of the breakout group I remember it was Barbara Jeske who was leading the discussion and at some point turns to me and said, So, what do you think, Daniela? How does that relate to your stealing the money? And I was -- so, how does she know? Did they tell everyone? And, they did.

So this -- and I didn't at the time -- at the time I took all of it. I thought this is a punishment I deserved somehow. This is going to make it better. I have to go through this like he said and it -- but it was horrible. They spoke to my parents. My parents, like me, felt horrible shame. I mean, I -- they didn't raise me to steal money. My father is the opposite of that. My father is a very honorable man who always threads through the -- he never cheats. He's, like, super straight. He's almost square, too straight. And I felt horrible because when they talked to them, Nancy spoke to them, they -- it was humiliating to them.

Because, like me, they felt that their daughter had stolen and they took it. They just took that thing that was happening that felt like punishment that was punishment and it was terrible.

DANIELA: No, not exactly. In fact, it was part of -- part of the ethical breach was you needed to figure out yourself or at least that's how it happened to me. I can't speak to, like, the rest because I became progressively isolated from the community and I didn't have contact with these concepts firsthand. I wasn't taught them. I just was disciplined with them.

But, so, the idea was that -- so a person -- I commit an ethical breach, something that breaches my own ethics. But that nonetheless has damage, physical damage to the world and I use physical damage lightly. Everything has consequences. So the ethical breach was like something exploded and it changes everything else so there's no way to contain that and one must figure out what it takes to fix it, you know, to contain all the ripple effect of all of those things.

And there were, like, a series of steps. You needed to make an ethical breach plan. So what are you going to do to counteract each of the salient negative effects and you make a plan of what it's going to take. And at some point it was, well, you're not the one who can approve your own ethical breach. You have to go to the people who you have damaged and they will tell you it's enough or not enough. It's not up to you and so on and so forth.

DANIELA: I became closer to him. What he said was true and he was there for me throughout and at the end. I would say he was sort of a shoulder to cry on.

So, at the time, he felt like the only person who was on my side, in fact, because I felt like that hell I went through, I felt, you know, everybody thought I was bad. And I just -- I took it, like I said, and he was -- he didn't adopt that stance. He kept being my friend. He was understanding. I would talk to him about how I felt about this, like, wave of punishment coming at me. And he was there for me.

DANIELA: Yes. The visitor's visa that the U.S. issues to foreigners allows for us to stay for a maximum period of six months. Sometimes it can be issued for less. Like, if one crosses the border and says, I'm going to come back, I'm just going to this event in 20 days, then you might get this, like, little paper -- I-94 I think -- stamped with less days. But the general rule is they will give you that and it's automatically six-month allowance.

And what I was doing, I was coming into the country, staying close to six months, really cutting it very close, like by days, and going back to Mexico for a little while to essentially renew it, and come back in and again maxing out close to six months and going back.

DANIELA: Well, in an earlier e-mail, he had bolded something, showing me that I had made a mistake. So, I replied back to him and -- with what I thought was the correct answer, which you can see below: What do you think? Oops, my mistake.

And I rewrite the series. And, so, I playfully write, "Bold this one, baby," because I think this is the right answer finally. I did make a mistake, but this is a right answer. That's a little tongue out case, TQM -- this is before emojis -- and then it cuts off to something he had sent me.

So, the reply that he's giving me, "Bold this one, baby," he is marking it with an arrow pointing to it, and he says: Do you really mean it? Aren't you too young to be doing this? Maybe not.

DANIELA: It had deteriorated.

It was -- whereas before they were trying to figure out what was going on with them, I think, that they were happy, still living under the same roof, and they talked. At that point in time, they were separated, essentially. They lived in separate rooms inside the house that they were renting in Riverwalk, and they -- my mom wanted to move out, she wanted to not live with him anymore. My dad, I believe, was heartbroken, very much loved my mother.

So, they both talked to me. Again, like, their relationship continued to be good between me and each of my parents, so I was -- you know, I was trying to navigate all of this.

DANIELA: It was one of the central issues in my life. It's my parents, my family, was always, like, my main axis. And other than caring about them as people, it's also my parents.

So, I don't think I ever stopped feeling that, so I was very emotional. It was a very emotional, like, in a negative way time.

DANIELA: Yes. I talked to him about everything, and this was one of the most important things. So, I definitely talked to him about this.

Like with everything else, like with this one in particular, I was hoping to get some insights that maybe would allow me to help my parents. I felt like I had a super friend that maybe could help.

DANIELA: No, no. Usually, it was more open settings, public settings. Even when we're at the center, it's not like the door was closed behind us.

So, we were sitting there and I was telling him all about my parents, my parents' issues. And he was, to a degree, giving me advice: Well, if your mother -- I understand that your mother might not want to be with your dad, but if she doesn't know what she wants yet, what is it, what has changed that they can no longer live under the same roof? At least they could be friends.

You know, it was just like, you know -- and I considered his understanding of human nature to be at least way better than mine. So, I was listening, but I was sharing this very sensitive, very painful, very negative situation that was happening in my life.

And in the middle of me sharing this with him, he moved closer to me and he kissed me. He just kissed me on the lips. And it was not a kiss that was reciprocated. I did not expect it. I mean, I did not expect it in general, but it also -- I was talking about my parents' divorce. So, I just -- I froze. Yeah, I froze. It was -- it was -- it was weird, it wasn't expected.

DANIELA: The conversation, well, it was over with that. I left and I drove home. And I remember, I was trying to understand what had just happened.

And that kiss did not feel good the moment that he kissed me. I froze. I didn't feel bad, didn't feel good, didn't feel anything, it was just like what's going on?

As I was driving home and I was processing, I started feeling almost like, Oh, my God, he likes me. He likes me in that way.

And this thing started growing in me, like, How do I feel? I feel flattered. I feel like I'm special. I feel chosen.

And, you know, I started trying to understand all of that, and it's almost like I started to feel a little excited about it. Like, the kiss itself was -- I didn't ask for it. I didn't feel anything and it was not something I wanted. But I started to think about it and I started to figure out what it meant.

And I remember I was driving home and I was thinking I was telling my mom, about getting home and telling my mom about it. And as a good thing. Like, it escaped me, what I think now, how my mom would have reacted.

Because what ended up happening is I got home, my mom was there. She was by the river on the bench. And I don't know why I decided to hold it inside me a little longer. Like, I still didn't understand and started to feel almost good about it, like, I started to feel almost excited about it. And I just didn't tell her right away. I was going to tell her; I didn't tell her right away.

But in between, I received a phone call from Keith and, How are you doing? I think it's better if you don't tell anybody about what happened, our kiss. I think that's better that's between us.

And I agreed, I complied. So, I think that by a few hours I would have changed the course of history because I don't think my mom would have been very happy to hear that a 40-year-old something -- it doesn't matter if it's Vanguard -- kissed her 17-year-old daughter.

DANIELA: I mean, now that I knew -- I mean, he had kissed me, he liked me. There was flirting going on now, like, open flirting going on now. And he, you know, he would lead -- I was very shy. I mean, especially then I was extremely shy. So, it took a lot of prodding to really move it that way. It wasn't something natural. To me, it was uncomfortable, flattering, uncomfortable.

So, the questions become more sexual and they began to talk about, Oh, but we can't have sex because you're too young.

You know, so, like, talk about sex but in the negative, like we can't have it, which I understood perfectly. And, so, that kind of...

And the course of the conversations basically let me in on his sexual life.

DANIELA: He explained to me that he had -- that he did have romantic relationships, that he had several girlfriends, that there were long-term girlfriends, that privacy was very important to him, that it needed to be a secret.

So, he let me in on his what he was doing.

DANIELA: Yes, yes. It was built up by him and I understood it and I followed on it.

And there was a particular conversation that happened weeks, maybe a month or so, maybe a little more, before. We were at volleyball. And after all this conversing about, Oh, we can't have sex, you're too young. Your birthday is coming up. What do you want for your birthday?

So, in my mind it was clear what the answer should be: I should want sex. But I was too shy to even say that. So, it took a lot of him asking in a flirty way, What do you want for your birthday? Do you want something special?

And I couldn't say it and I did not say it. And he noticed I was extremely shy, and he said, Well, if you're too shy to say it, why don't you write it on the palm of my hand?

And it was easier than to say it, so I, with my hand, spelled out S-E-X.

DANIELA: He said, Oh, you want sex?

And I remember feeling very insecure all of a sudden, like, Oh, my God, that was not the right answer. Oh my, God, I want sex? Who am I? That's so dirty.

I felt like -- yeah, like, you know, he set me up. Like a little deer, he set up the trap, and when I fell he's like, Oh, you fell in a trap.

So, after that, I was visibly shy, I know. I was extremely mortified. And he said, Is there something that you are insecure about, you know, about sex and all of that?

And I told him I was and I was insecure about my body and I was insecure about I felt fat, I was fat, and I felt insecure about my stretch marks that started appearing after I gained weight suddenly. And he's like, Oh, that's all right. But what about your pubic hair? Is that something you're insecure about, the hair on your pussy?

And I remember being really confused because I was like how would I be insecure about -- like, but what, is the hair too curly? Is it the wrong color? And he explained, Some women are like insecure and don't like their hair. But you know, I like natural.

DANIELA: Well, I remember once he started having sex with me he mocked me a little bit because he said I had very little hair. And I did. I had very little hair. And he even -- he was, like, well, you -- you shave it. You know how I like it. You shouldn't shave it. No, that's the way I am. I'm young. I didn't have a lot of hair and he nicknamed me Norelco because Norelco is apparently this little machine with which you shave hair. So he used to call me Norelco in a playful way. I didn't like it. And then I really didn't like it.

One day we were at the volleyball court and he yelled Norelco and I wanted to die. So I was very aware that he liked it natural and through games and jokes and explicit directives I knew that there was no grooming allowed.