3.Lauren Salzman — Direct (Part 1)

LAUREN SALZMAN: So within DOS, there was a first line, and those first lines were directly under Keith. So they were -- he was their master and they were his slaves.

And then under them were their slaves, so he would be their grand master.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes.

He was my mentor and teacher. He was -- we had a romantic relationship, a physical, sexual relationship from mostly between 2001 and 2008, or '9. And then not for a period of almost ten years, and then briefly in 2017, and he was my master.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Um, so there's two groups, or two -- between 2010 and 2012, I, with Keith and Kristin Keeffe and a number of members of the family -- well, let me -- there's a women. Her name is Daniella, Dani, and so her family members, myself, Keith, Kristin and others, basically kept this woman in a room for two years under the threat that she would go back to Mexico if she didn't perform certain results of our product.

And then there was a separate group, myself and Keith, and others, the DOS group, received property, some of the property was damaging information; true or untrue. Some of it was material possessions.

And based on having that property, we extorted more property from the women within that group. And we collected that property based on material -- materially false information, false pretenses.

The group was secret and we concealed that Keith was -- was the founder of the group, was a member of the group, and participated in any way in the group.

And then the material that we received, we received it through WhatsApp, Telegram, like different apps, email and phone communications.

LAUREN SALZMAN: So the start of every meeting, we would take a naked photograph and -- as a group -- and send it to Keith. And the photograph had to be fully frontally naked and our brands had to show. We have brands. And we were to be -- look uniform and happy in the photographs, and then we would get dressed.

And depending on what the focus of the meeting was, we would cover different things; whether it was going over the work project that we were working on for the sorority, or checking in on them, doing work groups on them, taking consequences for failing in the work projects, or sometimes there could be other focuses.

LAUREN SALZMAN: When he would attend, we would all get undressed, totally nude, and sit on the floor below him, and he would usually sit on, you know, above, on a chair.

And depending on what the focus was, he talked to us about a number of different things; whether it was some idea for the sorority, you know, some philosophical concept, or asking us about the different various projects we were working on, or people within the sorority.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Depends, I guess, how you look at it.

In June 2017, DOS became public, and so a lot of the ongoing operations stopped. Most of them stopped at that time. And then we focused more on PR stuff.

And then in -- after New Years 2018, um, coming close to like more February, Keith wanted to do a reenrollment effort or a recommitment and get things going again.

So that never happened because he was arrested, and so formally I think everything ended at that point. So March 2018, end of March.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yeah.

So my mom and Keith decided they were going to start a business, and it was going to be a human potential school. And when I graduated, my mom told me that they were going to teach classes that were going to be good for helping people achieve their goals, and basically for me figuring out what I wanted to do in this next stage of my life.

And she made a deal with me that if I came into classes for six months, then she would support me, no matter what I wanted to do after that.

So I came home and there was a six-week -- they wanted to do a six-week trial program for the courses that they were releasing, and they did it. There were 25 people in that original group, and so I participated in that first trial run of the classes.

And Keith came and taught all the classes two times a weeks, and I took them as a student.

LAUREN SALZMAN: My mom had met him and he was helping her with some of the work that she was doing at Con Edison in the nuclear power plant, and she had been excited about meeting him and his group of friends, and she had wanted me to meet them all.

So initially I -- I think I was home on a college, like a vacation from school, on a college break, and so I stopped at National Health Outlet, which was a business that Keith and Toni were running at the time, and just met them briefly.

And then later my mom had a dinner party to introduce us to her new friend.

LAUREN SALZMAN: It made me think that he was really smart and -- and especially when she would talk about her work at the nuclear power plant.

They were going through deregulation in Con Edison and she would talk about Keith was helping her implement a management system's program that he created and she would talk about -- like she would be in a meeting and she would run to the bathroom, and she would call him, and he would instruct her about what to do.

And she was really excited about the things that they were doing together and felt that it was really effective and she was getting good results at the nuclear power plant.

And so it made me think that he was really good at what he did; that he was really smart and had some really good -- and the way she described it -- innovative ideas.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Um, he would call and check in on me in the early days. I moved back home and was living with my mom. I didn't have a lot of friends that I was close to from high school, so I spent a lot of time alone. But he would check in.

And eventually like if I meet him for walks, and we would talk.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, yeah.

So another friend of ours had -- had come home and was also living at home with her parents, and so she moved out and he would encourage that, well, like Tori moved out, so like when are you going to move out?

But also at that time I think he inspired my mom to start charging me rent for living at home and -- so that I would be aware of, you know, what it was like to support myself.

And so that inspired also me to want to move out and be more self-reliant.

LAUREN SALZMAN: I think -- I mean, in some ways I think Keith related with Pam like a parent; like correcting her or disciplining her at times.

But I think, in general, like Keith had a vision of how he thought things could be, and Pam supported that vision. So he was like the leader and she followed and supported.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, Pam and Marianna were, I think, best friends and pretty inseparable, in general.

And the three of them were kind of, a -- like a unit, to some degree. Like to a degree to the exclusion of others. It was the three of them.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Sure.

We created a corporate retreat. So there were many things that took place at the retreat. But on his birthday specifically, we would have a lot of birthday cakes for, you know, everybody at the retreat. And usually we would have some sort of performance or entertainment, sometimes a tribute performance.

And often then he would have a forum where he would speak to the community and they could ask him questions and he would answer them.

LAUREN SALZMAN: A long time. I mean, it depends what you were preparing. But some of the preparations, you know, took months to prepare.

There were different things to prepare, so there was, you know, all the administrative work was one kind of bucket of things. I did a lot of the entertainments or activities during the week. And promote, you know, promotions. There were NXIVM organizational things, and then there were more social-based things. But it was a lot of preparation.

One year, I mean, I think I put probably, you know, a hundred to two hundreds hours of preparation work in for what took place there, and that was just me.

LAUREN SALZMAN: It was mostly between 2001 and 2008 or '9. And decreasing, you know, towards 2000, you know, '6, '7, '8, '9, so during that time.

And then we didn't for, you know, nine or ten years.

And then he initiated again just for a brief period after DOS became public in 2017.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Um, yeah, well, for -- I mean, for me it was a monogamous relationship, and at one point in time he -- after we had stopped being intimate and weren't spending -- intimate sexually -- stopped spending a lot of time together, he had told me he had made the decision to put the relationship on hold.

But it was my understanding that that wasn't a permanent decision and so, you know, it was my understanding that if I had a relationship with somebody else, that would be leaving the relationship.

So I didn't, you know. I stayed.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes. I -- yes.

In 2013, I wanted to have a relationship with somebody else, and I was -- I discussed it with him and told him I was thinking of leaving the relationship.

LAUREN SALZMAN: He told me that -- I mean, there were a couple of things that happened.

So he told me that if I stayed, he would reinvest in our relationship and that we would have children. And I asked him when? And he said, Soon. And I said, Soon like a year or soon like five years? But I wanted to say Soon, like a month or soon like five months, you know?

And he said, um -- between that time, within that time, a year to five years was his time -- estimated time frame.

And then we went on a subsequent walk where he said that I have -- I have been spending time with someone else. And I went -- that was not part of our community and that I had gone to high school with, and I shared a kiss with that person and I went and I came back and I told Keith and I said if you want -- I understand if you want to end the relationship, because I did this. And I was hoping that he would end the relationship, because I did that. And he didn't. And I said I was trying to get myself to a place where I felt strong enough to leave.

And so then he made the promise that if I stayed, he would invest and then I -- but then we had a subsequent walk where he told me that he had considered resigning as Vanguard because of what I had done.

LAUREN SALZMAN: It was, yeah. It was a huge deal to me. Because -- and I couldn't make sense of why he would like leave the community without a leader because I had done this.

So then I thought, if I ever -- I just always thought of it like if I ever wanted to leave, or how I would leave, or I always had to be much more mindful that I would do something that would be so, um, lacking in such care for the community that I loved and cared about, that I could do something that would make it so that he wouldn't be the leader for them anymore. It was really upsetting for me. And I took it very -- I took it to heart.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yeah. Yeah. That's like -- that I was somebody who, um, made good moral decisions, or that I was like honest or had integrity or had a strong character.

I wanted to be that and I wanted his -- I looked at him and how he viewed me to determine whether I was that.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Sure.

Like if I wanted to go and visit my grandparents out of town. Or if I wanted to buy a house. Or plan a work trip out of town. I would check if it was -- if those things were, like created any difficulties for him, or he was on board for those decisions, if he thought they were good.

I checked with -- I mean, medical advice before like medical decisions. I checked most things.

LAUREN SALZMAN: There was like a fasting thing going on during that time, like a bunch of the people in his group, his social group, were doing juice fast, so I learned what a juice fast was. And then I think one of the -- I think it was Pam or Barbara like said to me that I should ask Keith like when it was a good time to stop fasting.

And so I asked him and he -- I mean, basically saw me in my underwear and assessed whether there was fat on my body, and what a good weight would be, based on looking at me and my body constitution.

LAUREN SALZMAN: I think very well. Like very respected. That he was a incredibly moral person and -- and an adept thinker, very ethical, and he was, I think viewed -- like I wasn't the only one who checked with him on decisions. I think a lot of people did. And not even people close to him, like a lot of people would -- community members, would ask him about major things going on in their life.

Or like I remember somebody -- their family member was kidnapped in Mexico and they wanted to call Keith, you know, to figure out what to do.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, tribute was a big thing within NXIVM in general. That it was good to recognize other people's strengths and accomplishments and to give recognition for that.

There were, similar to how you have like belts in martial arts, there's a ranking system with sashes that we would wear and so there was a progression, graduated rank, and he was at the top of that.

And -- and there were -- there's a module, a class that we teach in the basic curriculum, that we taught in the basic curriculum, that is called personal values and inventory trading, and it talks about like the graduated levels of contribution that you can make in like added value to the world.

And there are ten levels, and at the top of it is like the contribution that affected the changes. The nature of what it is to be human. Like it's such a value that all of your experience of humanity is different afterwards, and like electricity or the computer or something like that.

And so it was discussed in that class that the curriculum that he created, we called it the technology, the model, was this level ten invention. And so it conferred this really high level of respect and appreciation of value for what he had done. And that, yeah.

And so anybody who came and took that, those courses, you know, was made aware of the -- of how valuable we thought the contribution was, his contribution was.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes, I believe so.

He would say that his technology was acting up and that he has those types of problems or -- yeah.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Just that it was this unique thing about him where these things happen.

And, yeah. I mean, like that it was -- that it was something special about him.

And then, I mean, my perception of it and the way that people related with it, that it was something about his energy or his impact on the world somehow.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yeah. That -- yeah, like, um -- well, he told me this one story a few times that there -- that he was on a walk with somebody, and that they were behaving somehow in a way that wasn't good, and that it was -- he was trying to show them some point, and that it was raining, but that it wasn't raining on him. It was raining on them.

And that he pulled them to show them that the rain wasn't happening in here and that, you know -- and that that was to convince them or to show them something that he was trying to convey that there was something about him that was different or something about his perspective or the way he was viewing the world that was really important. And that he was proving it to them by demonstrating this point.

And he told me that story a number of times.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yeah.

8 Hale Drive is a townhouse that -- it's a two-floor townhouse that has -- we referred to it as the executive library, but it was modified so to have kind of an open concept. So like the -- when you first walk in, it's like kitchen/living room.

And he had a grand piano in there. And then you can go upstairs and there was like a trap door so that nobody downstairs could get upstairs. But you can go upstairs and there were a lot of bookshelves, and like a work station, table, white boards. And then a loft bed at the top.

And there was some exercise equipment, a hot tub, and a sauna in the bathroom.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yeah.

We -- I remember that we had been intimate and then afterwards he wanted -- he had a camera that was on the -- there was like a shelf above the bed, and there was a camera. And he took the camera and said that he wanted to take a picture of me. And I was very shy about that and didn't want to have a picture taken of me. And he was like, no, let me. It's going to be nice.

And so he took, I think, two pictures. But they were like -- they were looking up at me from like the angle of -- it's like an up-close crotch shot, like -- like vagina looking up where you could see my whole upper body and face.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, when I -- early in my relationship with Keith, Dawn approached me and said that she -- she was inviting me, if I wanted to have that with them.

Daniella also approached me, a different Daniella then the -- Dani Padilla. And then later Allison and also Kryslana (phonetic).

LAUREN SALZMAN: Like early on in our relationship he asked me how I would feel if he took on Dani and Monica. And taking them on, to me, meant starting a sexual relationship with them to help them grow.

And I mean not the clearest example, but the -- I think, generally, he related with it a lot that way. Like he would say that he was -- that sometimes the sexual relationships were very difficult, but he was helping them.

LAUREN SALZMAN: I mean, different people at different times for different reasons, but I think that generally the -- it was difficult to be in a relationship with somebody who had relationships with so many people.

But, yeah. Ivy. Barbara. Both Barbaras. And myself. Kristin. Marianna. Camila. Monica.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Sure.

That someone he was having a relationship with would be upset with him in some way, and sometimes maybe even be threatening to leave or wanting to leave or end the relationship, and we would be asked to help them. And help them ultimately was to work through whatever their upset was so that they would be happy with him instead.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Looked at why they were having an emotional reaction and I mean oftentimes it was -- like within the ESP model and the framework that we were working with, there was a lot of focus on it. It was believed -- we all believed that we are responsible for our own emotional reactions, and that if you have an emotional reaction to something, the thing that you're having the emotional reaction to is just triggering a reaction that you have inside yourself. It's not causing you to have that reaction, it's giving you an opportunity to see the issues that you struggle with.

And so, generally, if somebody had an emotional reaction to something, and in this specific case, something with Keith, we would look at the fact that they were having a reaction, and look at this as an opportunity to work it through and -- and the thought was that if you left the circumstance to be more comfortable, you would be covering up that issue and your opportunity to work it through.

So sometimes you would talk about that, like this is for your growth. This is an opportunity, how are you ever going to get through there issue if you leave?

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, at the time I considered that helping them. Or helping Keith with them. But I think often if somebody -- if they wanted to leave, we would reenroll them. And this is a good idea. This is for your growth. This is very helpful for you. Keith only has your best intent in mind, you know.

And how are you going to get through this if you leave? So it was reenrolling them in this idea of growth and this idea that this relationship is especially helpful and effective for growth.

And -- and essential. Because if you left it, you wouldn't have that same opportunity.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yeah. I mean, there were times -- I mean, there were lots of times I wanted to leave the relationship and somebody reenrolled me back into it or talked me back into it.

And there were times also where I was talking to somebody who wanted to leave and wasn't happy, wasn't either getting through the issue or finding a way to exist there in some kind of healthful way or healthy way, and I talked them back into staying.

And I do think some of them, it would have been good for them, healthier for them to not be there.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, yeah.

One -- so one of them was we had to a corporate retreat at Pyramid Lake. And Keith released this writing project, and the writing project was something we didn't know about ahead of time. It was just something that he introduced there. And so it -- it was a very involved process and it took many hours, like we were there like ten hours, or something -- like it was a long -- a long process. And I wasn't enjoying the process and felt like I didn't have a choice to be there.

I didn't feel able to say I didn't want to do it or I didn't feel like that was acceptable as part of the leadership of ESP, and I was unhappy and -- and it was visible to others that I was having emotional -- a negative emotional reaction to being there. And then I was told that that was very damaging and destructive, and that I had changed people's perception of the writing project itself.

And -- and that I had hurt their perception of what a good leader is. Because if I'm a leader, and I'm acting in this really immature and damaging way, that it basically shows that I'm -- that our technology doesn't work, because look at how the lack of growth in me and that if this is acceptable in our leadership, then our leaders aren't respected. And that if this is how the leaders view the project, then it instructs other people how to view the project in a negative way.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes. So -- yeah. Sorry.

So around 2011, at one point Keith had -- he had come around that time and said that he thought that it was a good -- it was a good time that we could start trying to have children, and then I would -- I jumped on someone. I was excited and roughhousing in volleyball and I jumped on someone, Mike Baker, and Keith said that, um -- he was like you straddled him like and that that communicated that I was open to having -- the way that I behaved with men was inappropriate and that I was communicating that I was open to have relationships with all these other men, and that I was really disrespectful to him.

Marianna thought that I was easy and that how could he have children with me if this is the way that I respect or treat him, and it's visible for other people and not sort of communicated to Marianna, and so he called that off.

LAUREN SALZMAN: No. But then I thought that how could I have been so mindless that that's what I'm communicating and don't even know that I'm communicating that.

And so I must have something -- it must be a bigger thing, a bigger problem, than I understand, because I can't even see it.

LAUREN SALZMAN: No, it's something that he said.

And then I thought like if this was something you wanted to do last week, and then all of a sudden Marianna is going to voice it this opinion, and now you're going to change the whole thing, like I don't -- it created a certain type of animosity between me and Marianna that didn't exist before.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes. I did.

And also I didn't -- I was aware then that the way that I was being perceived was communicating something that I didn't want to be communicating to the men, and I -- I didn't go to volleyball and -- the next volleyball. And then I got feedback that I should have gone to the next volleyball and acted differently, or like that I wasn't taking the breach seriously enough to have attended to it or been doing something about it.

So I cleared my schedule and stayed home for a whole weekend and came up with like a very involved seven-page plan about what were all the ways that I was behaving inappropriately, and how it affected everybody, like all the men who went to volleyball, and Marianna, and my mom, and Keith, and the community, and how everybody perceived me as a leader, and basically held this like -- just empowered the work that we were doing in the community and in the company and in the world. And I came up with this very involved plan about how to fix it.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes.

Read the email?

LAUREN SALZMAN: I'm so sorry, Keith. I canceled everything not pertinent to the two intensives coming up and the community project since Friday to try to figure this out. I hope you know how important it is to me. I'm sorry I didn't do it sooner.

I also did feel uncomfortable going and being around everyone before really resolving myself with how I was going to heal them -- with them and you. I also felt like until you saw that I had a solid plan, you might feel I would be a liability to have there. I certainly did. Given that the one time I showed up of my own accord, this year I created enough damage to thwart our plans together for the rest of our lives.

LAUREN SALZMAN: It may have also been -- it may have been referring to a different relationship where I was -- had a flirtation with another person, and he asked me about it directly, and I sideswiped the issue.

And then when he asked me a second time, I was honest. So then I had been dishonest, and that came up again as an example when the Mike Baker thing happened.

LAUREN SALZMAN: I'm perceived as easy or available for relationship or viewed as jumping from man to man, so not taken seriously. This degrades me and also sets a bad example in the organization and reflects poorly on Keith and his choice to be with me or have a child with me.

And then there was --

LAUREN SALZMAN: Marianna.

Do you want me to read it?

LAUREN SALZMAN: I'm not sure if I did think I was disfunctional.

And there was a perception of Keith, that spending time with weak and disfunctional people, who were also in addition to me.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Mike, Ben, Jim and others don't see me as a respectable person for Keith to have a relationship or a child with. This reflects poorly on Keith and changes their internal representations of him.

Continue?

LAUREN SALZMAN: Proctors are rank, yeah.

The proctors like run throughout the educational programs. And their first -- like Level 1 where you can have a business with a person at that level of rank. They're like the managers.

LAUREN SALZMAN: He told me that Loreta remembered that Siobhan at one time had asked him to be the donor. And that when Loreta reminded her about this, Siobhan went and victimized herself to her wife, like she was being pressured against her will to do this, and that that had changed Christine's, her wife's, perception or beliefs and perceptions about Keith.

And basically that she had thrown him under the bus to her wife, and this was damaging.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes. That Siobhan would legitimately come and ask him to be the donor.

But then he said that he didn't intend to have the child with Siobhan. He wasn't going to have a child with Siobhan, but just that she had to legitimately ask.

But to me that didn't relate to the breach of throwing him under the bus to Christine. And if he hadn't wanted to be the donor, then why would it have been important to remind Siobhan about this in the first place?

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes, that he didn't understand -- he didn't understand why she wouldn't want to have him as the donor. And like why she would choose an anonymous donor over him, who she knew and had a prior relationship with.

And also that his children would have 50 percent off of the children's educational program that he created. And so that seemed to him a good thing.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Met with Siobhan and tried to help her resolve the breach.

But I didn't really believe that what resolved the breach was her going to Keith and asking him legitimately to be the donor. So I tried to help Siobhan look at why she would victimize herself and speak badly of others.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, we started -- I mean, I think I started talking about having children very -- I would say within the first five years of our relationship. I had expressed that I wanted to have children.

And when I starting getting closer to 30, I started pushing that I thought I wanted to do it sooner. And he had always said that we would do that, that that could be something that we could do.

And then I told you about what happened in 2011, so it was put off. And then I wanted to leave in 2013, and he said we would do it if I stayed, and then I stayed, and we weren't doing it.

And it was just this never-ending thing that got put off and put off and put off.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes.

In 2015 he told me he was considering having a child with Marianna. And asked me if I would -- and commit to staying with him, even with no relationship and no children.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yeah. Well, yes.

He had said that he shared with me that there had been -- Marianna had had abortions.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes. But he asked me to please not to speak to my mother about it. And I asked who I can speak to about it, and he wanted -- he suggested Dani Padilla, and I didn't want to.

And I asked if I could have permission to speak to Rosa Laura and he said, Yes. And so I spoke to Rosa Laura about it.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Barbara Jeske.

Karen Unterreiner.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Kristin.

Dawn Morrison.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Dawn.

My mother, Nancy Salzman.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Nancy, my mom.

Myself.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Barbara.

Cathy Russell.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Cathy.

And then, um, Daniella.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes.

Marianna.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Marianna.

Camila.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes.

Monica Duran.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Monica.

Ivy, I-V-Y, Navares.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Yes, it is.

Jim Del Negro.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Jim.

Mark Vicente.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Mark?

Emiliano Salinas.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Emiliano.

Rosa Laura Junco.

LAUREN SALZMAN: I'm sorry. I touched it.

That's Rosa Laura.

Nicki Clyne.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Nicki.

Allison Mack.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Allison.

Daniella Padilla.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Dani. Daniella Padilla.

Alex Betancourt.

LAUREN SALZMAN: That's Alex.

Jack Levy.

LAUREN SALZMAN: I think by, in some ways, what the people were willing to do. In some cases, by what they were willing to give up.

I think there's different ways of gauging their commitment and their shared values.

LAUREN SALZMAN: I think there are different ways, but I mean, there were times where he would come to me and ask like if I ever came to you and asked you to do something and I didn't -- I couldn't tell you why, would you do it?

And he asked me that on several different occasions. Like would you do -- would you be willing to just do what I ask you and no questions? And I would say, Yes.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Like as you -- as you -- if you start at top with Pam, as you go clockwise, those were the people who were Keith's friends and, I guess, people who were loyal to him and committed to him when I first met him.

And then in time there are people who -- and it's not necessarily exact, but became closer, became more trusted then over time.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Sure.

So the rank in ESP, Keith is the high -- was the highest rank, and then my mom was second.

So that's my mom, and Keith, were the two honorary ranks. They fell outside the ranking system because they created the ranking system.

Then the next highest rank, and they wore purple sashes. They were the senior counselors. That was Pamela Cafritz and Barbara Jeske.

Sorry, where I touched it is a little bit off.

And then the next wore the greens. They were senior proctors. That was Dawn. Myself. Barbara Bouchey. Loreta. Emiliano. Mark and Alex.

And then were the proctors. Karen. At one point Kristin. Cathy. Monica. Ivy. Clare. Jim. Nicki. Rosa Laura. Daniella. Allison. And Jack.

And then Marianna was a coach. I think at one time Dani was a coach. And then Cami was a student.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Daniella.

Cathy we called Miss Cathy.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Well, yes, to some degree.

Like that suffering is like a pity party, or like it's when you're generating an upset over something, it was seen as -- suffering was seen as being indulging in sadness to make yourself feel better about something that shouldn't feel good, or to get attention or something, or to get off the hook for something.

LAUREN SALZMAN: Somewhere near 2014, I think.

And then Barbara Bouchey left, I think, close to 2011; somewhere in there, 2010, 2011, I think.

And Mark Vicente left in 2017.